Automated monorail system update

[PeterAlt]

While I would thoroughly enjoy an automated monorail system, I just don't think we're there yet. WDW's trains are so antiquated, they can barely be operated by a human.

Besides that, this work being discussed doesn't make sense, to me, as infrastructure for an automation system. The backbone will be quite simple. Fiber trunk line with repeater-switches. Fiber or copper branches up to sensors, and copper to the communications rail, since that's how the trains will receive instructions, most likely.

All of that can be installed in one conduit mounted alongside the beam, with slack-loops and junction boxes at every pylon, or at least every track splice. Repeaters can mount to pylons, which would keep them away from traffic, animals and standing water, and put them closer to power. Very minor infrastructure upgrades...but the challenge will be in the gutting of the train consoles, and replacing them with a system that works perfectly. Then tie it all together with new consoles everywhere, and a fail-proof array of server-controllers.

All this is why I have my doubts with these photos showing monorail work. I see long distance conmdit being direction ally bored along World Drive, which happens to be along this stretch of monorail beam. Have we seen evidence of this happening along the rest of the beam ways, even when they don't run along the side of the roads?

What I see is preparations for massive telecommunications upgrades, in the form of multi-strand and high-spectrum fiber. AT&T and WDW are drastically trying to improve their wifi signal all over property, and they need more bandwidth to do it. Goff Communications (huge telecom infrastructure firm) has, so far, filed 11 permits to replace and add antennae at various locations around property, including a resort hotels. These permits are for wifi upgrades. MDE/MM+ is putting a serious strain on their undersized network, and they're drastically trying to improve.

How do you get more people on a network? You add access points. But how do you allow all their traffic to be on the network together? You add bandwidth. And you do that by buying it, usually in bulk from a 3rd party ISP. And it travels around town in 96-strand or larger fiber cables, which someone like Disney would lease or buy and extend up their main drag. From there, set splice boxes to branch out into the woods, to resorts, to the theme parks, and to the data centers.

My theory is that these direct bored conduits are for wifi and/or cell service upgrades. Probably both, given that AT&T really needs to boost their data capabilities, and Disney needs to quintupled its wifi capacity, at a minimum.

Sorry to derail the thread. And my apologies to Bob, because I trust Bob. I'm just curious if this is speculation based on a few clues, or if someone with credentials has come out and said something. Monorail CMs don't count....no offense.

Either way, this is still big news. I would assume this would be coming out of the NextGen budget. Didn't they spend most of it already? Or was this already previously allocated?

Wi-Fi can be used to control the trains, if access points keep overlapping for the entire length of track. Additionally, the signal could also be used by passengers for Internet service. Who knows... This could be what they're doing; and it will kill two birds with a single stoner (or network of access points, if you will). I can see everything you mentioned plus a monorail backbone access point network and automation control communication system as a single project. There may be other steps after this before we get monorail automation, such total rehabilitation of the pylon, beam ways, electric system, and those things the pylon connects to underground.

 

[PeterAlt]

Joining up with a local system at a terminal creates additional travel and removes the high speed rail from population centers. You'd want the two to meet at a nodal point where many lines come together as this offers greater flexibility for travelers and is typically in a densely populated area.

I like the idea I mentioned of an intermodal station connected to the Orange County Convention Center by elevated skyway walkway with moving sidewalk on some of that empty land right next to it. The intermodal center would be station to a metro line running directly to OIA connected to a future high speed rail line to Tampa, an I-drive area peoplemover with stops at USO and the malls, as well as an extension of the WDW monorail that actually goes off property to the I-drive OCCC Intermodal Terminal.

 

[Blufusion]

Yes, AAF is building a conventional rail system linking downtown Miami, downtown Ft. Lauderdale, downtown West Palm Beach, and OIA. AAF hopes to expand it in a second phase to WDW, but no agreements for right of way has been negotiated yet for that segment.

This rumor about WDW and monorails from OIA is way back from the mid 90's as far as I know the so called High Speed Rail was just going to be a stop at Disney. Not a monorail connection.

 

[PeterAlt]

No high speed trains are built to run on a third rail. They do not share tracks with those systems because those systems are designed to be entirely local and not connect to a larger network.

There are many example. From Wikipedia:

"The Class 373 used for international services operated by Eurostar via the Channel Tunnel uses overhead collection at 25 kV AC for most of its journey, with sections of 3 kV DC or 1.5 kV DC on the Continent. As originally delivered, the Class 373 units were additionally fitted with 750 V DC collection shoes, designed for the journey in London via the suburban commuter lines to Waterloo. A switch between third-rail and overhead collection was performed while running at speed, initially at Continental Junction near Folkestone, and later on at Fawkham Junction after the opening of the first section of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link. Between Kensington Olympia railway station and North Pole depot further switchovers were necessary."

"In London, the North London Line changes its power supply several times between Richmond and Stratford stations. The route was originally third rail throughout but a number of technical electrical earthing problems, plus part of the route also being covered already by overhead electric wires provided for electrical-hauled freight and Regional Eurostar services led to the change."

"The cross-city Thameslink service runs on the Southern Region third rail network from City Thameslink southwards and on overhead line northwards to Bedford. The changeover used to be made whilst stationary at Farringdon however since the Thameslink upgrade, this now happens at City Thameslink. Third rail remains installed between Farringdon and City Thameslink to allow trains to take power from the third rail in the event of a failure to changeover to the overhead system."

"In New York City, electric trains that must use the third rail leaving Grand Central Terminal on the former New York Central Railroad (now Metro-North Railroad) switch to overhead lines at Pelham when they need to operate out onto the former New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad (now Metro North's New Haven Line) line to Connecticut. ..."

"The Blue Line of Boston's MBTA uses third rail electrification from the start of the line downtown to Airport station, where it switches to overhead catenary for the remainder of the line to Wonderland. ..."

 

[PeterAlt]

This rumor about WDW and monorails from OIA is way back from the mid 90's as far as I know the so called High Speed Rail was just going to be a stop at Disney. Not a monorail connection.

There's been a handful of attempts to build HSR in Florida, some of them going down different routes. There have also been other private attempts to build east-west high speed rail in Central Florida. One of these would have stopped directly at EPCOT Center. The latest attempt would have stopped near Celebration on I-4 and an unannounced monorail extension would have collected guests from that station which Disney was prepared to donate land for. A monorail extension to outside WDW property to an intermodal station on I-Drive at the convention center is my dream idea.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

That is an interesting scenario and I do not know enough about travel patterns that way. I would always highly caution against high speed rail as a first link. The technology is not just about speed but also volume and distance. It's supposed to be the top tier, premium rail experience in a layered system where other means connect more places at shorter intervals.

What we really need to do is re/build our rail infrastructure with high speed rail in mind along heavily trafficked corridors and some that are expected to grow.

THIS WITHOUT QUESTION


AKK


That falsely assumes everyone will use the trains. And that many stops and short distances is an even further misapplication.


Once again, your research falls short. How those pieces are assembled is vastly different between a commuter rail line and a high speed rail line. In order to achieve the namesake high speed you need greater banking, specialized signaling, limited grade crossings and more precisely situated catenary. The train sets are also highly specialized and more expensive. High speed rail cannot double as a local commuter system.

 

[PeterAlt]

That is an interesting scenario and I do not know enough about travel patterns that way. I would always highly caution against high speed rail as a first link. The technology is not just about speed but also volume and distance. It's supposed to be the top tier, premium rail experience in a layered system where other means connect more places at shorter intervals.

What we really need to do is re/build our rail infrastructure with high speed rail in mind along heavily trafficked corridors and some that are expected to grow.


That falsely assumes everyone will use the trains. And that many stops and short distances is an even further misapplication.


Once again, your research falls short. How those pieces are assembled is vastly different between a commuter rail line and a high speed rail line. In order to achieve the namesake high speed you need greater banking, specialized signaling, limited grade crossings and more precisely situated catenary. The train sets are also highly specialized and more expensive. High speed rail cannot double as a local commuter system.

There's a couple if additional points I want to make -

- I agree with your premise about rebuilding our rail infrastructure with high speed rail in mind for the future. This is what they are currently doing for the SE corridor. They are investing in grade separations there. That kind of thing needs to be done here to. With the FEC investing in rail improvements and double tracking here, maybe government can work with with them on footing (pun not intended) the bill on grade separations, starting with the ones that would allow longer stretches of higher speeds and increase safety on where its most accident prone. They should start, however, with the CSX corridor, since that's already state owned and has a fraction of the crossings (in the South Florida area).

- There currently is NO rail corridor going east (from Coccoa Beach), west through Orlando and on to Tampa. This is a major missing link - not only for potential passenger service but also for freight. Additionally, both coasts have sea ports that deliver goods. A rail link between the ports that also links the ports to air has the capacity of moving goods from barge ships arriving via the Panama Canal at Tampa to another barge ship going to Europe at Coccoa Beach - in effect making up for the loss of the unfinished Florida Barge Canal that would have cut through the state. This is without mentioning that goods coming or going from the ports can also be loaded to planes since the rail link would pass through OIA.

The coast to coast tracks need to be built. They obviously would make money on freight service alone. If you're building the tracks, at least spend the extra money to make them high speed rail ready and fully grade separated. If they have to cut something, cut electrification but build it so that electrification can be added later on. Passenger service can be added in phases, if necessary.

 

[lazyboy97o]

You can't built high speed tracks and just run conventional rail in the mean time. And when it comes time to implement for high speed rail you need a dedicated path to allow for speed. Building for high speed in the future would more mean leaving room for tracks and their special needs along the right of way and at smaller stations that would be skipped.

 

[PeterAlt]

You can't built high speed tracks and just run conventional rail in the mean time. And when it comes time to implement for high speed rail you need a dedicated path to allow for speed. Building for high speed in the future would more mean leaving room for tracks and their special needs along the right of way and at smaller stations that would be skipped.

Why not? It's done all the time. It was done with the the English Channel Chunnel. As I mentioned, they're doing it now along the SE corridor (VA, NC, SC, and GA), as well as the NE corridor - slow, incremental improvements. Unlike those corridors, a Central Florida East-West corridor has the advantage of getting built right in the first place instead of major investments to correct engineering mistakes of the past, which actually works out cheaper in the long run.

Conventional rail can run on HSR tracks, but HSR cannot run on conventional tracks. Like, for example, I am building a computer for my sister and I bought all the parts except for the case. The motherboard is mATX, which can fit in cases designed for both both ATX and mATX profiles but not the smaller ITX profile. So, I explained that to her to let her find a case she wants on her own that will fit her new mATX motherboard. HSR trains are like mATX motherboards. They will work on conventional ATX "tracks", but ATX motherboards will not work on mATX "tracks" (cases).

The problem of conventional trains slowing down high speed trains is solved by additional tracks on the corridor, which are like additional highway lanes. High speed trains simply pass around slower traffic on those lanes.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Conventional rail doesn't operate on the dedicated high speed rails, the high speed trains run on the conventional tracks but not at high speeds. The requirements such as banking dictate speed and traffic. If it was easy as you suggest Acela Express trains would be going faster through more of the route.

 

[PeterAlt]

Conventional rail doesn't operate on the dedicated high speed rails, the high speed trains run on the conventional tracks but not at high speeds. The requirements such as banking dictate speed and traffic. If it was easy as you suggest Acela Express trains would be going faster through more of the route.

But, Acela Express trains and convention rail do share tracks. There's no augment that it would go faster on dedicated tracks.

EDIT - There are many levels of HSR service. The highest speed are maglev trains and that's like trying to play a DVD with a VHS recorder as far as running conventional trains on it. The second highest level requires dedicated tracks for efficiency purposes. I use the term HSR loosely, meaning up to the third highest speed service. If you're doing dedicated tracks, might as well go maglev. In that case, reserve rights of way for maglev that won't happen until into far in future.

 

[The Mom]

Perhaps we could get back on topic? And keep it related to WDW.

 

[PeterAlt]

Perhaps we could get back on topic? And keep it related to WDW.

High speed rail would have stopped at WDW so it's related.

 

[The Mom]

High speed rail would have stopped at WDW so it's related.

Not related under the context of the original topic. So please get back on topic.

 

[EpcoTim]

Wi-Fi can be used to control the trains, if access points keep overlapping for the entire length of track. Additionally, the signal could also be used by passengers for Internet service.

This sounds like a complete disaster. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just see way to many issues that could arise and with Disney repeatedly proving itself completely inept with all things technology........I can just picture a Netgear 802.11b router hanging from a piece of old cat5, dangling in the rain. Every time a microwave gets fired up in the Contemporary the whole system shuts down or ramps one of the trains up to top speed while horribly out of control; thereby allowing Disney marketing and PR to crown it "Disneys new fastest ride".

 

[unkadug]

This sounds like a complete disaster. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just see way to many issues that could arise and with Disney repeatedly proving itself completely inept with all things technology........I can just picture a Netgear 802.11b router hanging from a piece of old cat5, dangling in the rain. Every time a microwave gets fired up in the Contemporary the whole system shuts down or ramps one of the trains up to top speed while horribly out of control; thereby allowing Disney marketing and PR to crown it "Disneys new fastest ride".

Gives a whole new meaning to "Hey Y'all, watch this"

 

[monothingie]

While I would thoroughly enjoy an automated monorail system, I just don't think we're there yet. WDW's trains are so antiquated, they can barely be operated by a human.

Besides that, this work being discussed doesn't make sense, to me, as infrastructure for an automation system. The backbone will be quite simple. Fiber trunk line with repeater-switches. Fiber or copper branches up to sensors, and copper to the communications rail, since that's how the trains will receive instructions, most likely.

All of that can be installed in one conduit mounted alongside the beam, with slack-loops and junction boxes at every pylon, or at least every track splice. Repeaters can mount to pylons, which would keep them away from traffic, animals and standing water, and put them closer to power. Very minor infrastructure upgrades...but the challenge will be in the gutting of the train consoles, and replacing them with a system that works perfectly. Then tie it all together with new consoles everywhere, and a fail-proof array of server-controllers.

All this is why I have my doubts with these photos showing monorail work. I see long distance conduit being directionally bored along World Drive, which happens to be along this stretch of monorail beam. Have we seen evidence of this happening along the rest of the beam ways, even when they don't run along the side of the roads?

What I see is preparations for massive telecommunications upgrades, in the form of multi-strand and high-spectrum fiber. AT&T and WDW are drastically trying to improve their wifi signal all over property, and they need more bandwidth to do it. Goff Communications (huge telecom infrastructure firm) has, so far, filed 11 permits to replace and add antennae at various locations around property, including a resort hotels. These permits are for wifi upgrades. MDE/MM+ is putting a serious strain on their undersized network, and they're drastically trying to improve.

How do you get more people on a network? You add access points. But how do you allow all their traffic to be on the network together? You add bandwidth. And you do that by buying it, usually in bulk from a 3rd party ISP. And it travels around town in 96-strand or larger fiber cables, which someone like Disney would lease or buy and extend up their main drag. From there, set splice boxes to branch out into the woods, to resorts, to the theme parks, and to the data centers.

My theory is that these direct bored conduits are for wifi and/or cell service upgrades. Probably both, given that AT&T really needs to boost their data capabilities, and Disney needs to quintupled its wifi capacity, at a minimum.

Sorry to derail the thread. And my apologies to Bob, because I trust Bob. I'm just curious if this is speculation based on a few clues, or if someone with credentials has come out and said something. Monorail CMs don't count....no offense.

Nail on head! No telephone poles at WDW. Best place to run fibre with out having to clear everything out, the monorail right of way. Based on the pictures, no RCS would need that many strands of fibre. This is probably a result of not anticipating enough bandwidth for projects already completed.

 

[monothingie]

Nail on head! No telephone poles at WDW. Best place to run fibre with out having to clear everything out, the monorail right of way. Based on the pictures, no RCS would need that many strands of fibre. This is probably a result of not anticipating enough bandwidth for projects already completed.

Forgot to add, that the best way to achieve this would be a wireless system anyway. You can get the same result without having to dig up anything.

 

[Cesar R M]

Forgot to add, that the best way to achieve this would be a wireless system anyway. You can get the same result without having to dig up anything.

Disagree, wireless is slower,unreliable and more expensive to maintain and requires to have free frequencies in the area.
you can just dig a fiber and get 10Gbps for long distances with minimal equipment.

also, wireless stuff can be hacked easier than to cut a fiber cable to put a tracer then rebonding the cable.
.

 

[Tom]

Disagree, wireless is slower,unreliable and more expensive to maintain and requires to have free frequencies in the area.
you can just dig a fiber and get 10Gbps for long distances with minimal equipment.

also, wireless stuff can be hacked easier than to cut a fiber cable to put a tracer then rebonding the cable.
.

True. You want to use fiber to deliver the bulk bandwidth to the point of distribution, then smaller fiber or copper to the nodes. WDW is out of bandwidth. They need to add significant traffic space for resort wifi, in-park wifi, and also for the MB activie transmitters to work.