Automated monorail system update

[PeterAlt]

There is nowhere near enough traffic between Orlando and Tampa to support the great expenses required to maintain a genuine high speed rail system. Much less is there demand to pay more and take more time in travel just to say "I rode the high speed train that barely ever hit high speed." The idea that just the local Orlando area traffic would be sufficient is even more laughable and an even greater misuse of the technology. The state project was a boondoggle that would have further set back rail in this country.

I would also like to add to my response that the "high speed rail" technology that was going to be used (not being maglev) is similar to any metro of subway. Instead of a third rail, like metro systems have, the trains are powered by overhead electric lines. Other than that, the rest is pretty much the same: steel rails in concrete ties. It might be better to sell it as a phase one metro system, and phase two regional rail system to Tampa and maybe Cocoa Beach. A third phase would be as a state HSR system to Miami. A fourth phase would connect it to Jacksonville and connect it to the national system via Atlanta.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Afternoon Lazyboy,

What if the line continued north from Tampa, up the coast though, Alabama, Mississippi to NOL? and on from there............Do you think that could be economically sound?

That is an interesting scenario and I do not know enough about travel patterns that way. I would always highly caution against high speed rail as a first link. The technology is not just about speed but also volume and distance. It's supposed to be the top tier, premium rail experience in a layered system where other means connect more places at shorter intervals.

What we really need to do is re/build our rail infrastructure with high speed rail in mind along heavily trafficked corridors and some that are expected to grow.

I disagree. The numbers are there. An urban metro system would have cost the same amount. Just add up the number of visitors each year to the Orlando area attractions, the convention center, and Tampa each year and you will have a minimum number of people who will be riding system.

That falsely assumes everyone will use the trains. And that many stops and short distances is an even further misapplication.

I would also like to add to my response that the "high speed rail" technology that was going to be used (not being maglev) is similar to any metro of subway. Instead of a third rail, like metro systems have, the trains are powered by overhead electric lines. Other than that, the rest is pretty much the same: steel rails in concrete ties. It might be better to sell it as a phase one metro system, and phase two regional rail system to Tampa and maybe Cocoa Beach. A third phase would be as a state HSR system to Miami. A fourth phase would connect it to Jacksonville and connect it to the national system via Atlanta.

Once again, your research falls short. How those pieces are assembled is vastly different between a commuter rail line and a high speed rail line. In order to achieve the namesake high speed you need greater banking, specialized signaling, limited grade crossings and more precisely situated catenary. The train sets are also highly specialized and more expensive. High speed rail cannot double as a local commuter system.

 

[luv]

A rail from the airport to Disney benefits nobody but Disney. If Disney wanted it, Disney should've paid for it, not us.

 

[WDWDad13]

A rail from the airport to Disney benefits nobody but Disney. If Disney wanted it, Disney should've pay for it, not us.

I agree however if we don't pay for that, we'd just be paying for other questionable projects with all the tax waste these days

 

[PeterAlt]

That is an interesting scenario and I do not know enough about travel patterns that way. I would always highly caution against high speed rail as a first link. The technology is not just about speed but also volume and distance. It's supposed to be the top tier, premium rail experience in a layered system where other means connect more places at shorter intervals.

What we really need to do is re/build our rail infrastructure with high speed rail in mind along heavily trafficked corridors and some that are expected to grow.


That falsely assumes everyone will use the trains. And that many stops and short distances is an even further misapplication.


Once again, your research falls short. How those pieces are assembled is vastly different between a commuter rail line and a high speed rail line. In order to achieve the namesake high speed you need greater banking, specialized signaling, limited grade crossings and more precisely situated catenary. The train sets are also highly specialized and more expensive. High speed rail cannot double as a local commuter system.

I said metro or subway. Not commuter. Metro system are grade separated and use concrete rail ties on a straight track like HSR. Examples of metro systems are Metrorail in Miami, MARTA in Atlanta, Metrorail in Washington DC...

Examples of commuter rail are Sunrail in Orlando and Tri-rail in S. Florida.

While HSR and metro systems require completely different types of train sets, there are many examples in the world where HSR systems and metro systems share the same track sets. In those examples, the tracks have both types of power sources.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I said metro or subway. Not commuter. Metro system are grade separated and use concrete rail ties on a straight track like HSR. Examples of metro systems are Metrorail in Miami, MARTA in Atlanta, Metrorail in Washington DC...

Examples of commuter rail are Sunrail in Orlando and Tri-rail in S. Florida.

While HSR and metro systems require completely different types of train sets, there are many examples in the world where HSR systems and metro systems share the same track sets. In those examples, the tracks have both types of power sources.

High speed rail shares tracks with commuter and regional rail networks but they will never travel at their intended high speed in these areas. Please name an example of a metro/subway sharing tracks with a high speed rail system.

 

[Figment2005]

I love how this thread has absolutely no relevance to the monorail upgrade other than the first page.

 

[Cesar R M]

That is an interesting scenario and I do not know enough about travel patterns that way. I would always highly caution against high speed rail as a first link. The technology is not just about speed but also volume and distance. It's supposed to be the top tier, premium rail experience in a layered system where other means connect more places at shorter intervals.

What we really need to do is re/build our rail infrastructure with high speed rail in mind along heavily trafficked corridors and some that are expected to grow.


That falsely assumes everyone will use the trains. And that many stops and short distances is an even further misapplication.


Once again, your research falls short. How those pieces are assembled is vastly different between a commuter rail line and a high speed rail line. In order to achieve the namesake high speed you need greater banking, specialized signaling, limited grade crossings and more precisely situated catenary. The train sets are also highly specialized and more expensive. High speed rail cannot double as a local commuter system.

they could use other tricks you know, like a station where the metro regional one ends and the high speed linking WDW , orlando and miami starts.

 

[jdmdisney99]

I was going to ask you on your permits thread, but I'll ask it here. Were there any permits for the upgrades?

Wrong user...

 

[lazyboy97o]

they could use other tricks you know, like a station where the metro regional one ends and the high speed linking WDW , orlando and miami starts.

Joining up with a local system at a terminal creates additional travel and removes the high speed rail from population centers. You'd want the two to meet at a nodal point where many lines come together as this offers greater flexibility for travelers and is typically in a densely populated area.

 

[PeterAlt]

High speed rail shares tracks with commuter and regional rail networks but they will never travel at their intended high speed in these areas. Please name an example of a metro/subway sharing tracks with a high speed rail system.

First, I might have been wrong about the tracks that are shared having both electric source systems. They might have just the third rail but the high speed trains have both systems and switch back to overhead power when they exit the shared metro tracks.

Yes, you are correct about them slowing down when they pass through the metro area, but it's not that much of a deal. So, in the Orlando metro, the trains could slow down on shared metro tracks and speed back up along the rural stretch between Orlando and Tampa. A future extension to Miami would be mostly high speed and have an advantage over AAF, which will be forbidden to offer high speed service because they've decided (and wisely so from a financial point if view) not to spend the money to grade separate their tracks. The FHSR system to Miami would be fully grade separated and offer true high speed service. Tickets would cost more than those for AAF but there would be a market for the faster service and enough customers willing to pay the extra price for it. The rest of us who don't mind the extra travel time and are conscious about their budget will be loyal AAF customers, thus AAF doesn't have to worry about competition from the state. There is a market for both. Besides, competition is always a good thing.

As for examples of shared systems, I have read about some recently but forget where they are. I'll have to get back to you in that. I think one might be in Turkey, along the new transcontinental tunnel.

 

[lazyboy97o]

First, I might have been wrong about the tracks that are shared having both electric source systems. They might have just the third rail but the high speed trains have both systems and switch back to overhead power when they exit the shared metro tracks.

Yes, you are correct about them slowing down when they pass through the metro area, but it's not that much of a deal. So, in the Orlando metro, the trains could slow down on shared metro tracks and speed back up along the rural stretch between Orlando and Tampa. A future extension to Miami would be mostly high speed and have an advantage over AAF, which will be forbidden to offer high speed service because they've decided (and wisely so from a financial point if view) not to spend the money to grade separate their tracks. The FHSR system to Miami would be fully grade separated and offer true high speed service. Tickets would cost more than those for AAF but there would be a market for the faster service and enough customers willing to pay the extra price for it. The rest of us who don't mind the extra travel time and are conscious about their budget will be loyal AAF customers, thus AAF doesn't have to worry about competition from the state. There is a market for both. Besides, competition is always a good thing.

As for examples of shared systems, I have read about some recently but forget where they are. I'll have to get back to you in that. I think one might be in Turkey, along the new transcontinental tunnel.

No high speed trains are built to run on a third rail. They do not share tracks with those systems because those systems are designed to be entirely local and not connect to a larger network.

 

[PeterAlt]

No high speed trains are built to run on a third rail. They do not share tracks with those systems because those systems are designed to be entirely local and not connect to a larger network.

I'll find examples. In the meanwhile, the Istanbul tunnel I'm pretty sure is a good example. It will be used for both subway trains and high speed rail. The high speed rail trains have both power systems onboard: third rail and overhead. The tunnel uses third rail only. Subway trains passing through never have to adapt since all the trains use third rail. High speed rail trains running through the tunnel must switch systems as they pass through. There are other examples of this throughout Europe and Asia.

 

[MaryJaneP]

I agree however if we don't pay for that, we'd just be paying for other questionable projects with all the tax waste these days

I'll also agree. I will add that the number of Disney guests that spend money outside WDW and support the general central Florida economy could arguably increase and justify some expenditure. WDW would be the primary but not only beneficiary of a MCO-Orlando-WDW line.

Maybe an mid-state line, from Tampa to Port Canaveral, through WDW-Orlando-MCO would make sense. The line connecting Phila to Atlantic City would only seem to benefit gamblers, and since gaming is now legal in PA, even that benefit is questionable.

 

[PeterAlt]

No high speed trains are built to run on a third rail. They do not share tracks with those systems because those systems are designed to be entirely local and not connect to a larger network.

As I'm looking, I found what I will quote below in Wikipedia. It backs up your claim of lower speeds while also giving a good reason why trains passing through urban areas should not run at very high speeds.

"Because of mechanical limitations on the contact to the third rail, trains that use this method of power supply achieve lower speeds than those using overhead electric wires and a pantograph. Nevertheless, they may be preferred inside the cities as there is no need for very high speed and they cause less visual pollution."

 

[Admiral01]

A rail from the airport to Disney benefits nobody but Disney. If Disney wanted it, Disney should've paid for it, not us.

Disclaimer: this is not an attack on you personally.

I think this attitude is part of the problem with transportation in this country. Transportation systems benefit the entire society. This particular issue, train from Orlando to WDW, doesn't benefit Disney as much as it would hurt Hertz, Enterprise, Alamo, Dollar, etc. Disney would still get their visitors.

You (we all) actively pay for the highways and roads in, whether it is through tolls on a toll road or through your taxes. You pay for your state's airports through your taxes (and hopefully they eventually become relatively self sufficient). Orlando International Airport, for example, used to be McCoy Air Force Base. McCoy, it's runways, infrastructure, etc, was paid for by taxpayer money. The conversion to the passenger airport we know today was paid using city funds (taxpayer money). Yet, no one complains about that. Where is the outrage for the wasted money on the boondoggle that is air travel? Similarly, many western countries in Europe have extensive train, airport, metro, and road systems. There isn't outrage there. The money isn't wasted.

Disney pays federal and state taxes, so in a way, their money does help pay for the transportation system.

These things, roads/airports/rail systems, all benefit society, improve commerce, etc. A rail system, if comprehensive enough, would work.

It is, however, important to remember that it is all part of the United States' transportation system - a system that includes air travel, interstates, local roads, metro systems, Amtrak, rental cars, taxis, etc. Its a system of systems, and all need to play together. These systems in the US don't play together as well as they need to. I would love to be able to fly to Tampa, take a train to Orlando, rent my car at the train station, and be on my way. Right now those things (flight to TPA, train from Tampa to Orlando, and rental car) likely aren't planned to be connected. This country needs major train lines to service our major airports, etc.

This right here is the issue, not "if Disney wanted it, Disney should've paid for it..." Try telling yourself that same argument next time you drive on I-4...for "free," or the next time you need the police or fire department.

BTW, I am expecting some hate for this post...so no worries. I'm a big boy.

 

[luv]

Disclaimer: this is not an attack on you personally.

I think this attitude is part of the problem with transportation in this country. Transportation systems benefit the entire society. This particular issue, train from Orlando to WDW, doesn't benefit Disney as much as it would hurt Hertz, Enterprise, Alamo, Dollar, etc. Disney would still get their visitors.

You (we all) actively pay for the highways and roads in, whether it is through tolls on a toll road or through your taxes. You pay for your state's airports through your taxes (and hopefully they eventually become relatively self sufficient). Orlando International Airport, for example, used to be McCoy Air Force Base. McCoy, it's runways, infrastructure, etc, was paid for by taxpayer money. The conversion to the passenger airport we know today was paid using city funds (taxpayer money). Yet, no one complains about that. Where is the outrage for the wasted money on the boondoggle that is air travel? Similarly, many western countries in Europe have extensive train, airport, metro, and road systems. There isn't outrage there. The money isn't wasted.

Disney pays federal and state taxes, so in a way, their money does help pay for the transportation system.

These things, roads/airports/rail systems, all benefit society, improve commerce, etc. A rail system, if comprehensive enough, would work.

It is, however, important to remember that it is all part of the United States' transportation system - a system that includes air travel, interstates, local roads, metro systems, Amtrak, rental cars, taxis, etc. Its a system of systems, and all need to play together. These systems in the US don't play together as well as they need to. I would love to be able to fly to Tampa, take a train to Orlando, rent my car at the train station, and be on my way. Right now those things (flight to TPA, train from Tampa to Orlando, and rental car) likely aren't planned to be connected. This country needs major train lines to service our major airports, etc.

This right here is the issue, not "if Disney wanted it, Disney should've paid for it..." Try telling yourself that same argument next time you drive on I-4...for "free," or the next time you need the police or fire department.

BTW, I am expecting some hate for this post...so no worries. I'm a big boy.

I did read your post, because you quoted me, but nothing about it changes my opinion that Disney should pay for their own train.

In fact, nothing will change my mind. I've already made my decision on that.

 

[Admiral01]

I did read your post, because you quoted me, but nothing about it changes my opinion that Disney should pay for their own train.

In fact, nothing will change my mind. I've already made my decision on that.

The diversity in opinions is what makes this country such a cool place. The fact that we can have open conversations is great, even when we disagree.

 

[PeterAlt]

A rail from the airport to Disney benefits nobody but Disney. If Disney wanted it, Disney should've paid for it, not us.

That's why I suggested that a metro line from OIA to OCCC as a first step. That would benefit Orange County as well as the business along International Drive. If USO wants a stop, they should pay for (at least in part) a feeder system on I-Drive such as a peoplemover. If Disney wants a stop, Disney should be asked to pay for (at least in part) an extension from I-Drive (or maybe extending the monorail to I-drive).

Imagine that. An intermodal station connected to the OCCC with a metro going to OIA, a peoplemover going to USO, and a WDW monorail extension. I'm getting all tingling thinking about that... Lol

 

[Tom]

While I would thoroughly enjoy an automated monorail system, I just don't think we're there yet. WDW's trains are so antiquated, they can barely be operated by a human.

Besides that, this work being discussed doesn't make sense, to me, as infrastructure for an automation system. The backbone will be quite simple. Fiber trunk line with repeater-switches. Fiber or copper branches up to sensors, and copper to the communications rail, since that's how the trains will receive instructions, most likely.

All of that can be installed in one conduit mounted alongside the beam, with slack-loops and junction boxes at every pylon, or at least every track splice. Repeaters can mount to pylons, which would keep them away from traffic, animals and standing water, and put them closer to power. Very minor infrastructure upgrades...but the challenge will be in the gutting of the train consoles, and replacing them with a system that works perfectly. Then tie it all together with new consoles everywhere, and a fail-proof array of server-controllers.

All this is why I have my doubts with these photos showing monorail work. I see long distance conduit being directionally bored along World Drive, which happens to be along this stretch of monorail beam. Have we seen evidence of this happening along the rest of the beam ways, even when they don't run along the side of the roads?

What I see is preparations for massive telecommunications upgrades, in the form of multi-strand and high-spectrum fiber. AT&T and WDW are drastically trying to improve their wifi signal all over property, and they need more bandwidth to do it. Goff Communications (huge telecom infrastructure firm) has, so far, filed 11 permits to replace and add antennae at various locations around property, including a resort hotels. These permits are for wifi upgrades. MDE/MM+ is putting a serious strain on their undersized network, and they're drastically trying to improve.

How do you get more people on a network? You add access points. But how do you allow all their traffic to be on the network together? You add bandwidth. And you do that by buying it, usually in bulk from a 3rd party ISP. And it travels around town in 96-strand or larger fiber cables, which someone like Disney would lease or buy and extend up their main drag. From there, set splice boxes to branch out into the woods, to resorts, to the theme parks, and to the data centers.

My theory is that these direct bored conduits are for wifi and/or cell service upgrades. Probably both, given that AT&T really needs to boost their data capabilities, and Disney needs to quintupled its wifi capacity, at a minimum.

Sorry to derail the thread. And my apologies to Bob, because I trust Bob. I'm just curious if this is speculation based on a few clues, or if someone with credentials has come out and said something. Monorail CMs don't count....no offense.