k.hunter30
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Lee
Adventurer
I don't know...I sure can't stand Payton....but....interesting reading from Profootball Talk (Sorry for the length)
POSTED 10:40 a.m. EDT, September 13, 2007
IS BRADY TARNISHED, TOO?
At the risk of inviting another 500 or so e-mails, we need to address a twist to this whole Patriots Act ordeal that we have yet to tackle, but that we have been pondering for the past 36 hours or so.
Do the revelations of stolen defensive signals diminish the reputation and perceived abilities of quarterback Tom Brady?
If the goal of the brazenly overt operations was to help the team know the tactics that an opposing defense would employ on a given play (either on game day or the next time the two teams met), the player squarely in the eye of the storm of information was Brady. And, surely, he knew (or at least suspected) that the intelligence that the offensive coaches had about what a given defense might be doing didn't come from legitimate methods.
So, as an industry source posed the question to us this morning, what did Brady know, and when did he know it?
Unless and until Brady comes clean with a full and frank -- and credible -- explanation about his first-hand experiences, it fairly can be presumed that his legend has been fueled by the advantage derived from the actions for which the Patriots undoubtedly will be punished, as soon as Friday.
How many times has Brady come up with a key play late in a close game? In those occasions, how many times did he know exactly what the defense would be doing?
Part of the effectiveness of a blitz is the element of surprise. And a quarterback's challenge in that situation is to spot the corresponding gap in the coverage, and to get the ball to the receiver who'll likely be wide open in the sliver of time that the quarterback has to unload the ball before landing on his butt.
If the quarterback knows that the blitz is coming before the play is snapped, and if he knows who'll be blitzing, the task of finding that open receiver suddenly becomes a lot easier.
How many times have we seen Brady fire the ball to a wide open receiver an instant after Brady got the snap? How, in those cases, did he know so quickly that the guy would be open?
Though we realize that there are many factors that influence the ability of the team to achieve success on the field, most of which are unrelated to cheating, the added advantage that can come from knowing what the defense is going to do can make a huge difference. Otherwise, the Patriots (and other teams) wouldn't be devoting time and effort and money in order to find out, through legitimate and/or illegitimate means.
As we see it, the fact that the Patriots did what they allegedly/apparently/actually did creates a presumption that a benefit came from it. The fact that Brady has been the quarterback since 2001 creates a presumption that he knew or should have known what was going on. The fact that he took less money to stay in New England suggests that he knew (or feared) that he might not be able to replicate his success in a system that doesn't involve videotaping defensive signals. So unless he comes clean, we think it's fair to believe that, but for the added benefits that came from knowing what the defense was doing via techniques that crossed the line, he might have performed more like a sixth-round draft pick and less like a future Hall of Famer.
Regardless of whether he opts not to disclose what he knew and when he knew it, we think that Brady will be required to achieve a high level of success under another coach, and possibly with another team, before he is regarded as being truly worthy of Canton.
DisneyJill
Well-Known Member
:ROFLOL: :ROFLOL: :ROFLOL:
Peyton's always crying about something. If he throws an incompletion, he immediately looks to the refs asking "where's the flag??" Because of course, he's just so good that he would never throw an incompletion without pass interference being called on the defense...I'll take Brady any day.
As I said earlier, I'll be watching my Pats in the superbowl.. winning.And I love the hoodie!!
Ummm...Tom Brady is every bit the whiny crybaby that Peyton is. :lookaroun
Iakona
Member
I'll disagree with this whole line of thought. While I think Polian is a snake; Peyton is an awesome QB and his looking to the refs is part of the game. Neither him or Brady are whiners. Peyton is way overexposed with the commercials and Brady os on his way with the supermodels. Tough lives they lead.
What a load of BS. These guys must have bought the Brooklyn Bridge a couple of times if they honestly believe the PATS are the only ones that have done this.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/football/patriots/view.bg?articleid=1031230
"According to multiple league sources, the practice of surreptitiously recording a foe is commonplace. A former Patriots cameraman told the Herald as much on Tuesday.
“I can tell you this happens all the time,” he said. “I guarantee you the Jets and everybody else are doing it, too.”
Similarly, a Packers official admitted part of the reason the team didn’t file a complaint against the Pats even after catching them with a camera last November was because “everyone does it.”
Punishment is now known. OUCH!
NEW YORK - New England coach Bill Belichick was fined the NFL maximum of $500,000 Thursday and the Patriots [team stats] were ordered to pay $250,000 for videotaping an opponent’s offensive and defensive signals.
Commissioner Roger Goodell also ordered the team to give up next year’s first-round draft choice if it reaches the playoffs and second- and third-round picks if it doesn’t.
"This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field," Goodell said in a letter to the Patriots.
© Copyright 2007 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
SpongeScott
Well-Known Member
I"m surprised it was this severe. I never imagined it would be a first-rounder, and the fine....
SpongeScott
Well-Known Member
Opinions on Pats' tactics mixed among holdovers from Eagles' NFC title team
Associated Press
PHILADELPHIA -- Sheldon Brown and the Eagles hoped a blitz would rattle Tom Brady.
One problem: Every time the Eagles rushed Brady in the Super Bowl, the Patriots nullified the defensive attack with screen passes. Lots of them. On almost every play defensive coordinator Jim Johnson called for a blitz, the Patriots used the short pass to confuse the Eagles.
After the Patriots beat the Eagles 24-21 in 2005 to win the Lombardi Trophy, Brown thought the Patriots beat them with nothing but sharp offensive playcalling. Now, he's not so sure.
With spying accusations leveled this week against the Patriots, some of the Eagles left from the NFC title team are wondering if New England used bootleg film to their advantage in the Super Bowl.
"Do I think about it? Mmm hmmm," said Brown, their starting cornerback. "It's crazy. I just don't know how far back it goes. Something's not right about that."
Pro Bowl safety Brian Dawkins found the accusations troublesome.
"Now there's always going to be questions about the situation," Dawkins said Thursday. "Was it great adjustments at halftime or what?"
Pittsburgh wide receiver Hines Ward said this week that he suspected the Patriots had some type of inside information on the Steelers before at least one of the teams' two AFC championship game matchups since the 2001 season. While Ward said the Patriots knew a lot of Pittsburgh's calls, none of the Eagles could offer any type of solid proof of any shenanigans.
"For me to think back two years ago about something they may or may not have done, it's not worth my time," running back Brian Westbrook said.
New England beat the New York Jets in last Sunday's season opener in which an on-field video camera allegedly focusing on Jets coaches was confiscated from a Patriots employee. The league confirmed that it is investigating whether coach Bill Belichick and the Patriots were responsible for taping the Jets' defensive coaches as they signaled to players on the field.
"I would like to think it's just one team doing it, but it doesn't shock me that it happened," Dawkins said.
Some Eagles said occasional signal-stealing is an accepted part of the game. But they believe what the Patriots are accused of doing crosses the football morality line because it threatens the integrity of the game.
"It's different if you're talking about recording it," Dawkins said. "What can you do if you try to signal a play in?"
Eagles coach Andy Reid steered away from questions about the alleged cheating other than to say he has no doubts New England's victory was legitimate.
"That's something Bill and the Patriots are working through," Reid said.
Brown said he noticed a difference in New England's playcalling in the second quarter. After the Patriots gained only 45 yards in the first quarter, they had 286 over the next three.
Brady hit running back Corey Dillon and gained 29 total yards on a pair of screens to open New England's first full drive of the second quarter. They didn't score on that drive, but did on four of the next five drives.
The Patriots went to the screen pass again on the decisive drive early in the fourth quarter, this time with Brady connecting with Kevin Faulk on two passes for 27 yards.
"I was like, 'Man, I never saw that many screens,' " Brown said.
Brown wonders if it was normal playcalling from a team good enough to win three Super Bowls in four seasons, a Patriots team that used a strong scouting report to gain a fair edge, or was somebody picking up the Eagles defensive calls from a sideline camera that deprived them of a fair shot?
"I think they should forfeit, man," said punt returner Reno Mahe, smiling. "We won the Super Bowl. I think we should get it. I'm going to go trade my NFC championship ring for a Super Bowl ring."
The headline over a picture of Belichick on the back page of Thursday's Philadelphia Daily News might have said it all: "Counterfeit RING: Spy Scandal Helps Explain Birds' Super Bowl Loss."
Hey, maybe the illicit tape would show once and for all if Donovan McNabb really did get sick in the huddle late in the game. Remember, that was Philadelphia's first excuse for losing.
McNabb -- who insisted the Eagles would never stoop to those kind of tactics -- was surprised to hear the allegations against the Patriots. But he said the suspicions might be overblown.
"One thing people are forgetting is that even if you have the answers to the test, you still have to take the test," he said. "If they have an idea of what's coming, those guys still have to be able to execute the play."
That doesn't mean McNabb won't clear some space in his jewelry box. For a city that last saw a pro team win a championship nearly 25 years ago, the Eagles might accept a retroactive one.
"Maybe we'll get our ring back," said a chuckling McNabb. "Maybe we'll get the real one."
Associated Press
PHILADELPHIA -- Sheldon Brown and the Eagles hoped a blitz would rattle Tom Brady.
One problem: Every time the Eagles rushed Brady in the Super Bowl, the Patriots nullified the defensive attack with screen passes. Lots of them. On almost every play defensive coordinator Jim Johnson called for a blitz, the Patriots used the short pass to confuse the Eagles.
After the Patriots beat the Eagles 24-21 in 2005 to win the Lombardi Trophy, Brown thought the Patriots beat them with nothing but sharp offensive playcalling. Now, he's not so sure.
With spying accusations leveled this week against the Patriots, some of the Eagles left from the NFC title team are wondering if New England used bootleg film to their advantage in the Super Bowl.
"Do I think about it? Mmm hmmm," said Brown, their starting cornerback. "It's crazy. I just don't know how far back it goes. Something's not right about that."
Pro Bowl safety Brian Dawkins found the accusations troublesome.
"Now there's always going to be questions about the situation," Dawkins said Thursday. "Was it great adjustments at halftime or what?"
Pittsburgh wide receiver Hines Ward said this week that he suspected the Patriots had some type of inside information on the Steelers before at least one of the teams' two AFC championship game matchups since the 2001 season. While Ward said the Patriots knew a lot of Pittsburgh's calls, none of the Eagles could offer any type of solid proof of any shenanigans.
"For me to think back two years ago about something they may or may not have done, it's not worth my time," running back Brian Westbrook said.
New England beat the New York Jets in last Sunday's season opener in which an on-field video camera allegedly focusing on Jets coaches was confiscated from a Patriots employee. The league confirmed that it is investigating whether coach Bill Belichick and the Patriots were responsible for taping the Jets' defensive coaches as they signaled to players on the field.
"I would like to think it's just one team doing it, but it doesn't shock me that it happened," Dawkins said.
Some Eagles said occasional signal-stealing is an accepted part of the game. But they believe what the Patriots are accused of doing crosses the football morality line because it threatens the integrity of the game.
"It's different if you're talking about recording it," Dawkins said. "What can you do if you try to signal a play in?"
Eagles coach Andy Reid steered away from questions about the alleged cheating other than to say he has no doubts New England's victory was legitimate.
"That's something Bill and the Patriots are working through," Reid said.
Brown said he noticed a difference in New England's playcalling in the second quarter. After the Patriots gained only 45 yards in the first quarter, they had 286 over the next three.
Brady hit running back Corey Dillon and gained 29 total yards on a pair of screens to open New England's first full drive of the second quarter. They didn't score on that drive, but did on four of the next five drives.
The Patriots went to the screen pass again on the decisive drive early in the fourth quarter, this time with Brady connecting with Kevin Faulk on two passes for 27 yards.
"I was like, 'Man, I never saw that many screens,' " Brown said.
Brown wonders if it was normal playcalling from a team good enough to win three Super Bowls in four seasons, a Patriots team that used a strong scouting report to gain a fair edge, or was somebody picking up the Eagles defensive calls from a sideline camera that deprived them of a fair shot?
"I think they should forfeit, man," said punt returner Reno Mahe, smiling. "We won the Super Bowl. I think we should get it. I'm going to go trade my NFC championship ring for a Super Bowl ring."
The headline over a picture of Belichick on the back page of Thursday's Philadelphia Daily News might have said it all: "Counterfeit RING: Spy Scandal Helps Explain Birds' Super Bowl Loss."
Hey, maybe the illicit tape would show once and for all if Donovan McNabb really did get sick in the huddle late in the game. Remember, that was Philadelphia's first excuse for losing.
McNabb -- who insisted the Eagles would never stoop to those kind of tactics -- was surprised to hear the allegations against the Patriots. But he said the suspicions might be overblown.
"One thing people are forgetting is that even if you have the answers to the test, you still have to take the test," he said. "If they have an idea of what's coming, those guys still have to be able to execute the play."
That doesn't mean McNabb won't clear some space in his jewelry box. For a city that last saw a pro team win a championship nearly 25 years ago, the Eagles might accept a retroactive one.
"Maybe we'll get our ring back," said a chuckling McNabb. "Maybe we'll get the real one."
WDWFREAK53
Well-Known Member
Ok...I have one question to ask that will put "The Brady Legend is Tarnished" thought to rest.
If Brady and the Pats were only great because they knew what the defense was going to be throwing at them...why is every game they play (the majority) close? If you were that confident about the defensive plays...wouldn't you run the score up a little to give you a buffer zone...and THEN allow the team to come back?
I don't buy this...way too many nailbiters in there to say that Brady knew everything the defense was going to do.
If Brady and the Pats were only great because they knew what the defense was going to be throwing at them...why is every game they play (the majority) close? If you were that confident about the defensive plays...wouldn't you run the score up a little to give you a buffer zone...and THEN allow the team to come back?
I don't buy this...way too many nailbiters in there to say that Brady knew everything the defense was going to do.
mousefan1972
Well-Known Member
Perhaps, but Brady is way hotter! :lol:
I'm also surprised by the severity of the punishment handed down to the Pats. Yes, I am a huge Patriots fan, but I also believe no team should have an unfair competitive edge. I would like to think the organization is better than that. I really don't know what to think... I'm disappointed over the entire situtation.
But, the Yanks are in town!! At least that will deflect some of the attention away from the Pats, at least until Sunday night.
WDWFREAK53
Well-Known Member
Magic number is 11! :sohappy: :lookaroun
*tries to hold in the excitement until one team clinches*
SpongeScott
Well-Known Member
I don't buy it either. However, how much help has Brady gotten by knowing what the defensive scheme was. Time will tell over the course of the season.
DisneyJill
Well-Known Member
Butt chin Brady is hotter than Peyton?? No way!! :lol: :lol:
I should amend my earlier thought that Brady is every bit the whiner than Peyton is. I don't believe Peyton to be a whiner at all. But I'm saying that
IF he is (or, rather, if some people think he is), Brady is just as bad, if not worse.
Here's kind of what it boils down to: I dislike Tom Brady intensely, for several factors. He's arrogant, he canoodled with a supermodel in France while his smokin hot ex-gf announced she was pregnant, missed his baby being born and then was ballsy enough announce to his baby's last name was Brady at a pre-season game-only to be publically corrected. :lol: Plus, you know...his team beat my Colts in a couple of really important games. :lookaroun I am a big enough person to admit that Tom Brady is a great player and one of the great quarterbacks of our time (cough *not better than Peyton* cough) and that the Patriots, despite the fact that they are coached by a snake, will probably win another Super Bowl or 2 with Brady-but they are still the enemy and no matter how good Brady plays, or looks, or acts-I'm still going to not like him!
:ROFLOL:
WDWFREAK53
Well-Known Member
This is what I don't understand...
A catcher/pitcher combo can change plays/signals on a pitch by pitch basis but an entire squad doesn't know to change theirs up throughout the course of a game or entire season? This is why I don't buy it...if you're dumb enough to use the same plays and signals...then you really can't complain when a team catches on to you.
This is why I don't buy the fact that Brady knew everything...I'm sorry, that's just dumb. How about Peyton when he sees a defense change up their formation and he calls an audible...(Does Peyton's credibility go out the tubes and window if the Colts are found with tapes???) Brady does the same thing...they know the way the defense works because they've studied tapes (not illegal ones) time and time again.
This is turning into a Bonds thing!!!! It's ridiculous!
The guy that caught the dude filming WAS THE GUY THAT DID IT FOR THE PATRIOTS...and he left to go work with the Jets...do you think that they aren't doing it too??? Bill was caught by Mangini...because Mangini knew everything. Mangini 1...Bill 0...or should I say, -$500,000
Lee
Adventurer
Meh....It all comes down to a rule being a rule. Good rule or not, if you knowingly break it...you should suffer the penalty.
In my opinion, the penalty in this case was too light. B.B. should have been suspended for a couple weeks at least.
More interesting stuff from S.I.:
"Stories are now coming out of the woodwork that cheating has been a normal modus operandi with the Patriots. Last year the Lions played the Patriots in Foxboro. At one point their coach, Rod Marinelli, phoned up to the press box, "There's a camera pointed right at our defensive coach making his calls. Is that allowed?" A Lions' employee called the NFL booth. No, it certainly was not. So the videotaper was stopped. Then after a while he began again. The same process was repeated and he was asked to stop again. Now that's dedication."
And if everybody does it...why is it only the Pats who get hassled for it? :lookaroun
I don't think it's very widespread at all. I feel sure most teams just study the legal tapes.
In my opinion, the penalty in this case was too light. B.B. should have been suspended for a couple weeks at least.
More interesting stuff from S.I.:
"Stories are now coming out of the woodwork that cheating has been a normal modus operandi with the Patriots. Last year the Lions played the Patriots in Foxboro. At one point their coach, Rod Marinelli, phoned up to the press box, "There's a camera pointed right at our defensive coach making his calls. Is that allowed?" A Lions' employee called the NFL booth. No, it certainly was not. So the videotaper was stopped. Then after a while he began again. The same process was repeated and he was asked to stop again. Now that's dedication."
And if everybody does it...why is it only the Pats who get hassled for it? :lookaroun
I don't think it's very widespread at all. I feel sure most teams just study the legal tapes.
WDWFREAK53
Well-Known Member
I agree...a rule is a rule...and if it is broken, the person/persons breaking it should suffer the consequences and penalties that come along with it. (Funny though...there was a rule in writing...but no form of penalty or punishment in writing to go along with it.) Goodell went harsh on them...because, from what I've heard, prior to the season...he specifically said that he wanted no cheating whatsoever and he wouldn't budge on that issue. Well, bad timing Pats...bad timing. When the head honcho specifically says something...and you do the opposite, expect the penalties to be harsh.
Anywho, I'm not against the punishment being handed down...what I am against is the comments trying to take away the accomplishments of a player or the team.
mousefan1972
Well-Known Member
Butt chin Brady is hotter than Peyton?? No way!! :lol: :lol:
I should amend my earlier thought that Brady is every bit the whiner than Peyton is. I don't believe Peyton to be a whiner at all. But I'm saying that
IF he is (or, rather, if some people think he is), Brady is just as bad, if not worse.
Here's kind of what it boils down to: I dislike Tom Brady intensely, for several factors. He's arrogant, he canoodled with a supermodel in France while his smokin hot ex-gf announced she was pregnant, missed his baby being born and then was ballsy enough announce to his baby's last name was Brady at a pre-season game-only to be publically corrected. :lol: Plus, you know...his team beat my Colts in a couple of really important games. :lookaroun I am a big enough person to admit that Tom Brady is a great player and one of the great quarterbacks of our time (cough *not better than Peyton* cough) and that the Patriots, despite the fact that they are coached by a snake, will probably win another Super Bowl or 2 with Brady-but they are still the enemy and no matter how good Brady plays, or looks, or acts-I'm still going to not like him!
Everyone's entitled to their opinions... I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.. :animwink:
And I dislike Manning as much (or more!) as you dislike Brady!
CaptainMichael
Well-Known Member
I can understand that, but this is the territory that comes with cheating. It's hard to build a good reputation, but it's even harder to overcome a bad one. And thanks to your old pal Belichick, the Pats have a long way to go.
WildcatDen
Well-Known Member
Go Bengals!!!
As for the whole Bellycheck thingy, interesting how well his scheme's worked while he was in Cleveland. . .
As for the whole Bellycheck thingy, interesting how well his scheme's worked while he was in Cleveland. . .
Iakona
Member
I still think a suspension is possible form Kraft. No inside info, just my opinion. I think a 1st round draft pick is a huge loss, but I also expected the punishment to be harsh enough to send a message.
I will now be rooting very hard for every team playing the 49ers.
Funny, according to Green bay they did not call the NFL because everyone does it. What we are seeing now is piling on mainly because BB is a miserable SOB socially and no one likes him. Great coach, not so great person. You reap what you sow.
If they did have all these signals during games and it was so instrumental then I am a little unhappy that they made me sweat out all those close games. A couple of blowouts in the playoffs would have done wonders for my blood pressure.
Number_6
Well-Known Member
The thing is, teams and individual players do things to cheat all the time. This isn't the first time a team has cheated in some way and it won't be the last. When the Broncos won back-to-back Super Bowls, they did so having violated the salary cap rules. They got their punishments, but it meant that they got to have players they might not have been able to afford if they had stuck to the rules. Those players could have given them the advantage that they needed in order to win. Shawne Merriman had a positive steroids test last season and got his suspension. He then went on to be selected to the Pro Bowl and was allowed to play. The Pats have gotten their punishment handed to them, they will continue to play this year and we'll see how well they do or don't do.
WDWFREAK53
Well-Known Member
You don't think a 1st round draft pick is harsh???
Put it this way...think of the Pats without Laurence Maroney...or Richard Seymour...or Wilfork...those were all 1st round picks that would be on another team.
Not harsh? I think it's PLENTY harsh.
Put it this way...think of the Pats without Laurence Maroney...or Richard Seymour...or Wilfork...those were all 1st round picks that would be on another team.
Not harsh? I think it's PLENTY harsh.