Al Lutz: Carsland for WDW, FLE not Bringing in Guests

[Goofyernmost]

Do you think WDW is missing some magic because all of these bashing threads? The more I come here and read the threads the more the magic gets spoiled. Luckily I went to WDW a couple of weeks ago and saw it wasn't the doom and gloom posted here.

But in response to the comments regarding DLR, do you think that WDW is getting less attention because $ keeps testing funneled to alternative projects like DCL, AbD and Aulani? It feels like WDW bears the brunt of those endeavors while DLR is allowed to be 'just' a theme park.

I agree that reading this stuff can taint your viewpoint about the place unless you are able to be objective and make your own decisions about what is real and what is 'pie in the sky'.

Before I ever started being heavily involved in the boards, I was starting to feel something that I wasn't able to identify. Something that didn't catch my imagination like it had in the past. If you read my posts even I am amazed by how much I fluctuate between "heaven and evil empire", from post to post. That is because I take individual situations and judge them for myself, not to please someone else wanting me to agree with them. Some of the disaster conversations are in making a mountain out of a molehill mode.

I guess I see things differently and tying into what you said, people are set on the fact that the money being spent on NextGen is money that could have been used to build new attractions. I suppose it could have been but only those that do not understand business at all would seriously think that would have happened. That is why WDI is a separate department as are marketing and accounting. They have their own agenda's and compete for non-budgeted money. This entire expense is not coming out of WDW's budget, it is being spread out over all the Disney Parks as well as Marketing and Accounting. It was never intended to go into new attractions and never would have.

Back to my original thought, before I ever consciously thought about what was a problem, I noticed that so many attractions were closed or closing, nothing was slated to replace them (sorry, but meet and greets do not qualify as replacements). I noticed while walking half way across the park, that counter service areas were closed and on days when you could barely walk through. I found myself having to choose from a 6 item menu of stuff that I wouldn't have even considered having if I hadn't been quite so hungry. All the while sputtering to myself about why I was being herded into THEIR choice of where I should be eating.

Flashing back to pre-Fastpass days, either there was more street entertainment or the fact that I wasn't concentrating on getting to the ride before my window closed allowed me to enjoy it. Maybe it started when I had to, (you name the reason, it doesn't matter) stand in an immobile standby line to see my favorite ride and witnessed the anger of people around me when they stood there sweating while others just arriving breezed on by. Contrary to the common self absorbed belief that those people were mad at those walking by, they weren't, they were mad at Disney for creating a situation that put them there. That is one of the things that I noticed at Universal. For a fee, I could purchase a ticket that allowed me to use EVERY attraction that had an express lane. No running back and forth getting a FP, timing it or anything else. Buy it once and use it on every designated ride (once) and when you got there, not 3 hours from now. Even though I didn't buy one, I noticed that the standby line was very calm. No anger, nothing. We all understood that we could have done the same thing if we had been willing to pay for it. No chances, just buy it. A much happier group of people, thus a much better atmosphere. You could stop and watch the street shows and not worry about it. You could walk the 10 steps or so to the next ride or attraction you wanted to see and not have to zig-zag. It was not work, it was just fun. AND it did so remind me of the days when I became a WDW fan and at the same time it made it perfectly clear to me, why I had lost that loving feeling.

 

[OFTeric]

Flashing back to pre-Fastpass days, either there was more street entertainment or the fact that I wasn't concentrating on getting to the ride during my window closed allowed me to enjoy it. Maybe it started when I had to, (you name the reason, it doesn't matter) stand in an immobile standby line to see my favorite ride and witnessed the anger of people around me when they stood there sweating while others just arriving breezed on by. Contrary to the common self absorbed belief that those people were mad at those walking by, they weren't, they were mad at Disney for creating a situation that put them there. That is one of the things that I noticed at Universal. For a fee, I could purchase a ticket that allowed me to use EVERY attraction that had an express lane. No running back and forth getting a FP, timing it or anything else. Buy it once and use it on every designated ride (once) and when you got there, not 3 hours from now. Even though I didn't buy one, I noticed that the standby line was very calm. No anger, nothing. We all understood that we could have done the same thing if we had been willing to pay for it. No chances, just buy it. A much happier group of people, thus a much better atmosphere. You could stop and watch the street shows and not worry about it. You could walk the 10 steps or so to the next ride or attraction you wanted to see and not have to zig-zag. It was not work, it was just fun. AND it did so remind me of the days when I became a WDW fan and at the same time it made it perfectly clear to me, why I had lost that loving feeling.

I remember my trips Pre-FP and Post-FP and there was a lot of magic lost in the transition. And you point it out very well.

I always think it is a mistake at place where you require people to queue, to make the queue the enemy. For decades we were taught that the lines are part of the story, it is the first act.

Now we are being told to ignore the first act, and get straight to ride... on and off as fast as you can.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Now we are being told to ignore the first act, and get straight to ride... on and off as fast as you can.

FastPass also taught us to ignore the lands, the theme. It encouraged running back and forth across the park to the next FastPass Distribution and then back to another attraction.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Flashing back to pre-Fastpass days, either there was more street entertainment or the fact that I wasn't concentrating on getting to the ride during my window closed allowed me to enjoy it. Maybe it started when I had to, (you name the reason, it doesn't matter) stand in an immobile standby line to see my favorite ride and witnessed the anger of people around me when they stood there sweating while others just arriving breezed on by. Contrary to the common self absorbed belief that those people were mad at those walking by, they weren't, they were mad at Disney for creating a situation that put them there. That is one of the things that I noticed at Universal. For a fee, I could purchase a ticket that allowed me to use EVERY attraction that had an express lane. No running back and forth getting a FP, timing it or anything else. Buy it once and use it on every designated ride (once) and when you got there, not 3 hours from now. Even though I didn't buy one, I noticed that the standby line was very calm. No anger, nothing. We all understood that we could have done the same thing if we had been willing to pay for it. No chances, just buy it. A much happier group of people, thus a much better atmosphere. You could stop and watch the street shows and not worry about it. You could walk the 10 steps or so to the next ride or attraction you wanted to see and not have to zig-zag. It was not work, it was just fun. AND it did so remind me of the days when I became a WDW fan and at the same time it made it perfectly clear to me, why I had lost that loving feeling.

Well said, especially the part I highlighted. Why would anyone get mad at someone else for doing the same thing they could have done?

Another advantage of Universal's Express Pass is that, being an upcharge perk and not available to everyone, the Express lines rarely get a huge surge like Fastpass lines do that brings the standby line to a grinding halt. Even if they do, their merge ratio is closer much less than Disney's standard 1:4, 1:6, or 1:10.

 

[baymenxpac]

Do you think WDW is missing some magic because all of these bashing threads? The more I come here and read the threads the more the magic gets spoiled. Luckily I went to WDW a couple of weeks ago and saw it wasn't the doom and gloom posted here.

But in response to the comments regarding DLR, do you think that WDW is getting less attention because $ keeps testing funneled to alternative projects like DCL, AbD and Aulani? It feels like WDW bears the brunt of those endeavors while DLR is allowed to be 'just' a theme park.

tis a well balanced individual who can see the flaws in something, yet still enjoy it. does the magic get spoiled if you read this site? i don't think so. i still go to WDW, i still have fun. i can't say that i experience it the same way as i did in the '90s though, where i scoffed at anyone who spent any time off property in central florida. there's no doubt that the decisions management has made have encourage discerning consumers to think twice when it comes to WDW. maybe not for the entirety of the product, but for some of its pieces. be honest: which would you rather do for a day: IOA and potter or DHS?

 

[Rodan75]

After thinking about it overnight, I do think sites like these do diminish the magic, as do continued exposure to WDW, the more you see it the more you see the flaws.

However, I do get the overall feeling about WDW, moreso when I look at Epcot compared to any other park. The poor Future World. And I agree overall the original impact of FP was a negative one overall, but I disagree that Universal's process is better, I've noticed more rides that completely stop in the standby line. I somehow believe that FP+ will actually improve the overall experience (and no let's not talk privacy for the moment)

I do like the conversation on sites like these and I love the business aspect of the theme parks (I am a corp guy in a completely different industry, but am interested in how the same corp things happen somewhere like WDW), however, I despise all of the reference to 'pixiedusters' and general negativity that exists here. If you don't take a step back you would swear some folks here are planning a coup d'etat on TWDC.

 

[novawildcat18]

Even in sad shape that the parks are in, the magic isn't gone for me. I only go to WDW once a year if I'm lucky so any time I get to spend there is "magical", even if I can see some of the flaws. It's still Disney World.

 

[djkidkaz]

I used to think that too. I would read all the negativity here, but when it came time for our yearly family pilgrimage down to O-town, We would strap on the Mickey ears, fly down, stay at our big bad evil DVC, flash our APs to get into the parks, and soak up the magic with tears of joy. Then I would fly back home, read the forums and go 'they're just wrong. Especially that nut job Spirit!' I was just there and it was so MAGICal!

Then the past year happened. Since October of 2011, we've spent approx 29 days in WDW theme parks spanning 4 trips -- oct '11, April '12, nov '12 and jan '13. Maybe it was just too much....but with each successive trip from that oct 11 trip to the most recent one, something would either be broken and/or break. Whether it was broken ani's on EE/splash/SSE/malestrom/Potc, projection problems on soarin, the queue screen on JotLM showing the M$ windows blue screen, a problem with my room key that lasted the whole oct '12 trip, Minnie flashing angry hand gestures while reluctantly taking a picture with my daughter at chef mickeys, the monorail crapping out, a fast pass surge frequently turning a 20 minute wait into an hour, a 60 minute wait for a seat at crystal palace even though i had an ADR that I had only because I woke up at the but-crack of dawn 180 days prior .....after a while, these broken things start to annoy you like a bad blister or a chafed thigh, because they are either so voluminous or egregious that you can't overlook it.

But even if it was just what I described above, I might not be as negative on the place as I currently am. Two separate, unconnected issues/events have solidified my resolve that WDW is in a death spiral and needs immediate help now.

First, is the current agregate mindset of WDW cast members. Prior to oct '11, if any of the above issues threatened my enjoyment of my vacation, I would seek a CM. I would be polite and courteous.....and the CM would take care of the problem. How it was taken care of is/was immaterial. They would get it done and before you had a chance to let the issue soil your trip, they would fix the problem and do something special for you. I think back to a trip in 09. My daughter had her first bibbidi appointment in the morning followed by her first breakfast at CRT. However, within 5 min of sitting down at a chair in bibbidi, she got violently ill. The bibbidi CM's treated her with such respect and care. They all flocked to her aid while she heaved into a pail. We had to cancel the the bibbidi appointment and the CRT ADR and take her back to the room. However, within 2 hours of canceling bibbidi and the CRT adr, we got a call from a CM at WDW informing us that our bibbidi appointment was rescheduled for 2 days later and they arranged for a table at CRT immediately afterwards. She also told us that if our daughter was still sick, they would happily reschedule a later date, Then, 2 days later, while at our rescheduled CRT breakfast, each and every princess asked my daughter if she was feeling better. It convinced my then almost 4 year old daughter that the princesses really were magical and real. It brought my wife to tears. Unfortunately. That was the end of the magic. Each trip following that one, I had at least one experience with a cast member per trip that was putrid. Whether it was a CR cast member checking you into your room at BLT who was just nasty and who said "you DVC people can be so annoying" or a CM at guest relations in the Mk that wouldn't stop rolling her eyes at you when you came in with a complaint/concern or problem. The general feeling i got was that the cast members simply don't care any more. They treat a conflict or problem with frustration and they treat the guest with disdain. Nothing makes me angrier than watching a CM point in that traditional disney way...you know, with three fingers, but with their eyes and the rest of their body language, they are screaming 'FU, you annoying guest, don't you bother me ever again'. They were clearly taught how to point in disney fashion, but they either forgot *why* or never learned *why* in the first place. I shudder to think what would have happened if my daughter got sick in bibbidi today, just 4 years later. Would the cast member scream "get out of here, before she throws up on the floor!"??? Sadly, that particular reaction doesn't seem very foreign for today's CM.

The second event, occurred during our jan '13 trip. The first half of the trip was spent at universal, at the royal pac. It was our first stay at Uni. Every team member we bumped into was respectful, friendly, talkative and generally excited to be working at uni. It was infectious.....but there was something far greater that happened this trip compared to other trips...we relaxed! We have grown to accept the fact that WDW trips were/are stressful. Each meal at WDW is planned 180 days in advance. At wdw, We raced from fast pass to fast pass. Not at uni. We woke up when we wanted, we ate breakfast when we wanted. We went back to the royal PAC in the middle of the afternoon for lazy swims. We enjoyed clean theme parks with friendly TMs. People often talk about the fact that uni is beating WDW in the uncontested attraction war......but very few people talk about the fact that uni is beating the crap out of WDW in the intangible race. What used to be wdw's secret weapon -- guest service, has been usurped by universal....

Just a week ago, I was telling my kids how much I missed universal and wished we were going back soon. They asked where their real dad is being held.....

I think the answer lies in the beginning of your statement. You said that you used to make a yearly trip to WDW and loved everything. Then you stated that over the course of a year you spent almost a month at WDW ( 29 days ). Of course anything you do over and over is going to change the way you see it. You have so much time on your hands that your viewing the parks differently. You start to feel that there isn't as much to do in the parks anymore because you were just there and rode it all then. So you notice that your feeling bored or not spending as much time in the parks and trying to figure out what to do with your day, where-as before you didn't have that problem so your day was busy, busy, busy because in actuality, there is ALOT to do at WDW. I think you summed this theory up perfectly with your feelings toward Universal. Its new and fresh to you, so now your pining to go back. Go and spend a month this year visiting Uni and eventually you'll be right back where you are at WDW, bored and uninspired. It doesn't mean that Uni or WDW are bored and uninspiring, it just means they are to YOU at this time in your life. My guess is that if you spent the next two years of your life vacationing anywhere other than Disney and didn't spend a single day reading a Disney forum or blog, you would arrive at the Magic Kingdom on that next vacation and the excitement, love and energy would return.

The parks don't grow fast enough for us, I don't even believe they are meant to. We are the rare breed that spends countless hours a day creating websites, surfing forums and reading blogs. You have folks that love it so much they can't see or accept anything is wrong or could be done better. And you have folks who yearn for the Disney of past and believe that they weren't wearing rose colored glasses back in the day, it actually WAS all perfect and MAGICal. The truth, as always, is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Nice theory except it dosent quite cover the CM part does it?

But I do feel your pain

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

The parks have objectively gone way downhill. Nostalgia has really nothing to do with it. Especially considering people have taken trips to other Disney parks around the world and still find that there's magic at those, especially Tokyo I hear. It's not just that nothing much has been added of substance, but there has been a lot that was taken away in recent decades as well.

 

[awilliams4]

After thinking about it overnight, I do think sites like these do diminish the magic, as do continued exposure to WDW, the more you see it the more you see the flaws.

However, I do get the overall feeling about WDW, moreso when I look at Epcot compared to any other park. The poor Future World. And I agree overall the original impact of FP was a negative one overall, but I disagree that Universal's process is better, I've noticed more rides that completely stop in the standby line. I somehow believe that FP+ will actually improve the overall experience (and no let's not talk privacy for the moment)

I do like the conversation on sites like these and I love the business aspect of the theme parks (I am a corp guy in a completely different industry, but am interested in how the same corp things happen somewhere like WDW), however, I despise all of the reference to 'pixiedusters' and general negativity that exists here. If you don't take a step back you would swear some folks here are planning a coup d'etat on TWDC.

There are sites that don't have all the doom and gloomers like this site does. Mouseowners for example could have a thread on a subject where here everyone is bashing it while there it is a totally different discussion. I suspect it has much more to do with who hangs out where and less to do with WDW.

 

[awoogala]

Then the past year happened.

but very few people talk about the fact that uni is beating the crap out of WDW in the intangible race. What used to be wdw's secret weapon -- guest service, has been usurped by universal....

Just a week ago, I was telling my kids how much I missed universal and wished we were going back soon. They asked where their real dad is being held.....

The cm difference is astounding. The difference between 2009 and today are just- insane.
I have never complained at disney before this year. I complained about little things on boards, but all in all, I am still a magic seeker.
It was so hard this year. Cm's were rude, unhelpful at worst..just detached and checked out on the whole.
Servers ignored us, food was cooked terribly, everything was just off.
I did write to disney and complained.
My husband was done with Disney world by the end of this trip. He is not sure he ever wants to go back. Right now I am trying to convince him to try a wdw/uni trip next time.

 

[Genie of the Lamp]

The cm difference is astounding. The difference between 2009 and today are just- insane.
I have never complained at disney before this year. I complained about little things on boards, but all in all, I am still a magic seeker.
It was so hard this year. Cm's were rude, unhelpful at worst..just detached and checked out on the whole.
Servers ignored us, food was cooked terribly, everything was just off.
I did write to disney and complained.
My husband was done with Disney world by the end of this trip. He is not sure he ever wants to go back. Right now I am trying to convince him to try a wdw/uni trip next time.

Gee so much for southern hospitality existing in the World. Maybe we do need route 66 to expand to WDW and inject some Radiator Springs hospitality techniques like in the movie (imagine if cm's acted like Sally) to inspire the current cm's to actually give a dam about the guests.

 

[djkidkaz]

Every forum for every Disney theme park around the world is the same thing. You have two sets of people. Pixie Dusters and Doom and Gloomers. Everyone thinks the grass is always greener elsewhere. Heres a fun little example, apparently DL still knows what they are doing and have gotten things turned around, but WAIT, according to the DL forums elsewhere, their threads look very similar to the stuff around here:

Can Michael Colglazier help Club 33 recover from two years of poor TDA mangement


Poor TDA management? Really? That sounds like many of the threads around here and our poor TDO management. Hmmm...

Just nose around at some of the more Disneyland centric forums and you will be amazed how similar it is to the forums here.

 

[GLaDOS]

Every forum for every Disney theme park around the world is the same thing. You have two sets of people. Pixie Dusters and Doom and Gloomers. Everyone thinks the grass is always greener elsewhere. Heres a fun little example, apparently DL still knows what they are doing and have gotten things turned around, but WAIT, according to the DL forums elsewhere, their threads look very similar to the stuff around here:

Can Michael Colglazier help Club 33 recover from two years of poor TDA mangement


Poor TDA management? Really? That sounds like many of the threads around here and our poor TDO management. Hmmm...

Just nose around at some of the more Disneyland centric forums and you will be amazed how similar it is to the forums here.

Except you also almost always see Disneyland fans say "Well, at least we're better off than Florida.", too.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Every forum for every Disney theme park around the world is the same thing. You have two sets of people. Pixie Dusters and Doom and Gloomers. Everyone thinks the grass is always greener elsewhere. Heres a fun little example, apparently DL still knows what they are doing and have gotten things turned around, but WAIT, according to the DL forums elsewhere, their threads look very similar to the stuff around here:

Can Michael Colglazier help Club 33 recover from two years of poor TDA mangement


Poor TDA management? Really? That sounds like many of the threads around here and our poor TDO management. Hmmm...

Just nose around at some of the more Disneyland centric forums and you will be amazed how similar it is to the forums here.

Poor TDA management of Club 33, not the DLR as a whole.

I'm a MiceChatter/Disneylander and the things we complain about are not the same things a lot of people complain about here. We complain about special photo ops being gone for a while and Main Street windows and BVS windows being altered to some sort. Our complaints are totally different.

 

[HMF]

The CMs pride in ownership of the resort is one of the main differentiators in Tokyo and CA. They can truly make or break the experience. As more CMs who "get it" continue to leave WDW, the magic pool will continue to dilute. Hopefully at a minimum George K can change some of the culture. At least that would be a start.

If the NextGen thing (God Forbid) succeeds then I really hope George is able to improve SQS and shifts the culture then the MM+ pill might taste slightly less bitter but only slightly.

 

[doctornick]

DCA reasonably fits in the land it's located in.

The Monsters, Inc. ride?

 

[HMF]

Every forum for every Disney theme park around the world is the same thing. You have two sets of people. Pixie Dusters and Doom and Gloomers. Everyone thinks the grass is always greener elsewhere. Heres a fun little example, apparently DL still knows what they are doing and have gotten things turned around, but WAIT, according to the DL forums elsewhere, their threads look very similar to the stuff around here:

Can Michael Colglazier help Club 33 recover from two years of poor TDA mangement


Poor TDA management? Really? That sounds like many of the threads around here and our poor TDO management. Hmmm...

Just nose around at some of the more Disneyland centric forums and you will be amazed how similar it is to the forums here.

I personally would like to see both the Doom & Gloomer and Pixie Duster titles removed from the vocabulary around here because neither term is really accurate. Spirit, Lee, Martin , myself and the others who frequently get the D&G tag thrown on us have praised Disney for things it actually does right quite a few times in the past. Sadly it seems for every good thing that happens at WDW these days there are at least a dozen bad things.

 

[flynnibus]

Poor TDA management? Really? That sounds like many of the threads around here and our poor TDO management. Hmmm...

Just nose around at some of the more Disneyland centric forums and you will be amazed how similar it is to the forums here.

Nah - similar sounding - but different. The complaints about Club 33 are about attacks on it's independence and the radical changes to it's membership and perks. There are complaints about DL's business practices of late.. (pricing, hard ticket events, changes to CM parties, etc) but less about park upkeep or coming (or lack of) attractions.

So you could say.. 'everyone has problems of some sort' - but the complaints about Florida's management are far more specific than general moaning.