Al Lutz: Carsland for WDW, FLE not Bringing in Guests

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
Sadly, it took a trip to Universal for me to realize what was missing. Atmosphere, life and vibrancy! I just thought that feeling that I had at WDW was just because I had been so many times. When I got to Universal, the atmosphere hit me so strongly it almost took my breath away. It all became clear in my mind, what was missing. It wasn't maintenance, because I still don't see that as a huge problem at WDW, it was the feeling that no one was really trying to entertain (from the management level). It was more like...well, here it is...enjoy! Remember it all started with a mouse and a guy named Walt something! Leave money! :(

Sadly, I totally agree with this...*sob*
 

Cosmic Commando

Well-Known Member
I don't think I've ever seen a long line for Mermaid. The longest I've ever waited for Mermaid was maybe ten minutes, if that, when I went with @Cosmic Commando last November. How long did we wait, cosmic? Couldn't have been more than seven or eight minutes.

I wish I would wait more than twenty minutes. Mermaid is a "I've got nothing else to do" ride or a "My little kids want to ride, so I'll ride" attraction.
The line looked long, but the ride ate it right up. I'd say ten minutes at the absolute most that one time, and that was an anomaly where the park was very full at the time. I swear I don't think I waited more than 60 seconds any other time in about a dozen rides in the rest of November.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
The line looked long, but the ride ate it right up. I'd say ten minutes at the absolute most that one time, and that was an anomaly where the park was very full at the time. I swear I don't think I waited more than 60 seconds any other time in about a dozen rides in the rest of November.

Yep. I remember the line looking long as well, but we were on in no time.

Other than that one time, my experiences with Mermaid have always been myself walking into the queue, and onto the ride, very quickly.
 

Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
Sadly, it took a trip to Universal for me to realize what was missing. Atmosphere, life and vibrancy! I just thought that feeling that I had at WDW was just because I had been so many times. When I got to Universal, the atmosphere hit me so strongly it almost took my breath away. It all became clear in my mind, what was missing. It wasn't maintenance, because I still don't see that as a huge problem at WDW, it was the feeling that no one was really trying to entertain (from the management level). It was more like...well, here it is...enjoy! Remember it all started with a mouse and a guy named Walt something! Leave money! :(
Yeah, I live about 4 miles from UOR. That puts me about 12 miles from WDW. And I have 2 teen/preteen daughters. We go to UOR a lot. WDW, not so much. I also pop over to UOR Resorts or CityWalk for dinner fairly regularly. We make it down to DtD maybe 3-4 times a year. Everything at WDW is SOOO EXPENSIVE and there are so many other options that we just don't go. For the kind of money that I would spend on dinner at DtD, I can stop at Restaurant Row on Sand Lake and have a much higher quality meal.
 

Cosmic Commando

Well-Known Member
Yep. I remember the line looking long as well, but we were on in no time.

Other than that one time, my experiences with Mermaid have always been myself walking into the queue, and onto the ride, very quickly.
It's funny, because Mermaid at DCA and Nemo at Epcot are very, very similar...

-good, but not great ride
-omnimover
-hardly ever a wait
-undersea theme
-clammobiles

...but then Mermaid at MK and Nemo at DL are relatively different. Seems like FP will mess up Mermaid wait times at MK and the ride system at DL mucks that up.
 

Pixiedustmaker

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Mermaid is 21st century... There's no reason the ending should have been that way. They had the money to do a proper ending, they were just too lazy.

The Tony Baxter version of Mermaid had some pretty neat stuff in it, obviously the attraction we got was so scaled back (screens for three scenes, cheap cardboard Ursula, meaningless 'goodbye' scene without emotion), that the ride falls short of all of Disney's classic dark ride. The budget figures weren't publicly released, but I heard from an insider on this board that it was about $45 million for Mermaid in DCA $55 million for Mermaid in WDW . . . kinda surprised it wasn't less given that Toy Story Mania at DCA, (new ride tech, new ride vehicles, $1 million dollar Potato Head), costed around $40 million . . .

Mermaid was, IMHO, cooked up quickly, and dirt cheap, to add to DCA's roster of rides, they expected it to be so much better than the carney rides like the Ferris Wheel that guests wouldn't notice, well, they did as the ride is kinda tacky and sad given that Ariel and Ursula are great characters.
 

Pixiedustmaker

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It's funny, because Mermaid at DCA and Nemo at Epcot are very, very similar...

-good, but not great ride
-omnimover
-hardly ever a wait
-undersea theme
-clammobiles

...but then Mermaid at MK and Nemo at DL are relatively different. Seems like FP will mess up Mermaid wait times at MK and the ride system at DL mucks that up.

I like Nemo a lot better because it has real fish, the angler fish scene (when it is working), and a nice queue (better than DCA anyway). Can't believe they used clamshells, again, for Mermaid in MK, but I guess all it was supposed to be is a clone.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
The Tony Baxter version of Mermaid had some pretty neat stuff in it, obviously the attraction we got was so scaled back (screens for three scenes, cheap cardboard Ursula, meaningless 'goodbye' scene without emotion), that the ride falls short of all of Disney's classic dark ride. The budget figures weren't publicly released, but I heard from an insider on this board that it was about $45 million for Mermaid in DCA $55 million for Mermaid in WDW . . . kinda surprised it wasn't less given that Toy Story Mania at DCA, (new ride tech, new ride vehicles, $1 million dollar Potato Head), costed around $40 million . . .

Mermaid was, IMHO, cooked up quickly, and dirt cheap, to add to DCA's roster of rides, they expected it to be so much better than the carney rides like the Ferris Wheel that guests wouldn't notice, well, they did as the ride is kinda tacky and sad given that Ariel and Ursula are great characters.

Okay, I'll admit the ending was underwhelming, but I don't hate it like you do. It's not "dirt cheap", in my opinion, and I think DCA's version's facade is very beautiful. Mermaid is definitely more advanced than the Fantasyland rides. It's not "dirt cheap" and there are far worse rides at DCA.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Once again, I can't believe I'm the one defending Disney on this. I keep seeing all these comments about how the new LM ride is a one-time ride, how it's not something they will do again, and it just makes me cringe. I'm sorry because I know it's going to be controversial to this crowd, but we rode LM four times in a row on the half-day D23 preview and I never got tired of it. I would have ridden it all day as it was pretty much a walk-on and we loved it, but they were kicking us out at 12, we got a late start, and we wanted to try the meet and greet with Ariel, try Lefou's Brew, and try Enchanted Tales with Belle as well as see the new restaurant. Some of you either didn't care for the LM movie and thus it's no fun, have never seen the new ride much less ridden it, or are just expecting something from a ride that is totally different from what you have gotten traditionally in the rest of Fantasyland and the MK in WDW. LM is a better ride experience in every way than all the old stuff in WDW Fantasyland. Yes, I said it. I'm not talking Disneyland, as after going there for the first time a couple of years ago, I think DL's Peter Pan, Small World, and Snow White are just better overall but as far as WDW goes, the new LM is just better. It is better than WDW Peter Pan, better than Small World, better than Winnie the Pooh, better than Toad, better than 20K, better than Snow White, better than the Mad Tea Party, etc. I've ridden them all, back to my first trip in the mid 70s as a kid. If you want to argue that it's not faithful to the movie, fine. If you want to argue about the overall FLE and about how much space they wasted with all the scenery and the fact that they only added one net ride in all of this, go ahead. I personally think they should have added a BatB ride at minimum instead of just using all that space for story-time and I despise that they shut down Snow White. Go ahead, be my guest. If you want to be upset because they've never updated PP with the latest technology to make it feel more like you are flying and it's still the same since the 80s, go ahead. But anyone who says LM is bad and they don't know if they will ever ride it again is one of the three things I said above and aren't going to like it unless it has a secret tunnel that leads to an underground version of Horizons and a handshake from Chuck Norris awaiting in a robe and crown. This is from someone who has been there, actually ridden it, and can't wait to get back to it again in May. If you aren't in line, then I guess it will be easier on the rest of us.
This is nothing against you or your post. I actually didn't even read it. I just wanted to make a general comment to people that post like this, when you post a large block of text like this people are much more apt to skip over it.
 

Cosmic Commando

Well-Known Member
I like Nemo a lot better because it has real fish, the angler fish scene (when it is working), and a nice queue (better than DCA anyway). Can't believe they used clamshells, again, for Mermaid in MK, but I guess all it was supposed to be is a clone.
Yeah, I think I like the Nemo omnimover better, too. I actually wish they took the clams directly from the Seas for Mermaid... no lap bars! I know there's an elevation change in Mermaid that someone brought up before when I was complaining about this, but there's an "elevation change" in Pirates and (for years) Splash with no lap bars. I love the little doors that automagically close on the Nemo clams.
 

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
The Nemo clams are actually cheaper and more simple - they can only face that one direction. The LM clams are like Haunted Mansion's doom buggies in that they can rotate as well as go through navigation changes.
The Tony Baxter version of Mermaid had some pretty neat stuff in it, obviously the attraction we got was so scaled back (screens for three scenes, cheap cardboard Ursula, meaningless 'goodbye' scene without emotion), that the ride falls short of all of Disney's classic dark ride. The budget figures weren't publicly released, but I heard from an insider on this board that it was about $45 million for Mermaid in DCA $55 million for Mermaid in WDW . . . kinda surprised it wasn't less given that Toy Story Mania at DCA, (new ride tech, new ride vehicles, $1 million dollar Potato Head), costed around $40 million . . .

Mermaid was, IMHO, cooked up quickly, and dirt cheap, to add to DCA's roster of rides, they expected it to be so much better than the carney rides like the Ferris Wheel that guests wouldn't notice, well, they did as the ride is kinda tacky and sad given that Ariel and Ursula are great characters.
It also doesn't thematically fit in Paradise Pier. Everything else in DCA reasonably fits in the land it's located in.
 

Tom Morrow

Well-Known Member
Sadly, it took a trip to Universal for me to realize what was missing. Atmosphere, life and vibrancy! I just thought that feeling that I had at WDW was just because I had been so many times. When I got to Universal, the atmosphere hit me so strongly it almost took my breath away. It all became clear in my mind, what was missing. It wasn't maintenance, because I still don't see that as a huge problem at WDW, it was the feeling that no one was really trying to entertain (from the management level). It was more like...well, here it is...enjoy! Remember it all started with a mouse and a guy named Walt something! Leave money! :(
DLR has that same energy and liveliness that UOR has that you're talking about. The difference in atmosphere of the DLR parks compared to WDW is honestly kind of stunning. There is live entertainment everywhere. There really aren't any bad attractions wasting space. You get the sense that they truly want these parks to be great, rather than just "adequate." Guests at DLR seemed happier even on a very busy day and weren't just miserably shuffling around from Fastpass to Fastpass.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
The Nemo clams are actually cheaper and more simple - they can only face that one direction. The LM clams are like Haunted Mansion's doom buggies in that they can rotate as well as go through navigation changes.
It also doesn't thematically fit in Paradise Pier. Everything else in DCA reasonably fits in the land it's located in.

Mermaid fits in the area fine. Why don't you think it fits?
 

Rodan75

Well-Known Member
DLR has that same energy and liveliness that UOR has that you're talking about. The difference in atmosphere of the DLR parks compared to WDW is honestly kind of stunning. There is live entertainment everywhere. There really aren't any bad attractions wasting space. You get the sense that they truly want these parks to be great, rather than just "adequate." Guests at DLR seemed happier even on a very busy day and weren't just miserably shuffling around from Fastpass to Fastpass.
Do you think WDW is missing some magic because all of these bashing threads? The more I come here and read the threads the more the magic gets spoiled. Luckily I went to WDW a couple of weeks ago and saw it wasn't the doom and gloom posted here.

But in response to the comments regarding DLR, do you think that WDW is getting less attention because $ keeps testing funneled to alternative projects like DCL, AbD and Aulani? It feels like WDW bears the brunt of those endeavors while DLR is allowed to be 'just' a theme park.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
DLR has that same energy and liveliness that UOR has that you're talking about. The difference in atmosphere of the DLR parks compared to WDW is honestly kind of stunning. There is live entertainment everywhere. There really aren't any bad attractions wasting space. You get the sense that they truly want these parks to be great, rather than just "adequate." Guests at DLR seemed happier even on a very busy day and weren't just miserably shuffling around from Fastpass to Fastpass.

What?!? :eek:

How can this be??? Disneyland is just a little, tiny locals-only park. Have you seen how small their... Castle is? Walt didn't even like Disneyland, and he bought the land in Florida to fix all of the deadly mistakes he made with Disneyland. Walt hated Disneyland, more than he hated Communists and the Sierra Club. WDW is the Flagship of the line. WDW is where the MAGIC lives! They can't maintain WDW as nicely as Disneyland because there's more acreage at WDW, so it's harder for the maintenance guys to drive around at WDW. And they can't close a ride for rehab at WDW because if they do vacations will be ruined! And they only build new rides at Disneyland to test them out before they get installed for real at WDW.

Don't tell me there is actual quality and quantity and sparkling new ideas being presented to paying customers enjoying themselves at that little Disneyland property in Southern California!

Oh, wait.... :cool:
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
What?!? :eek:

How can this be??? Disneyland is just a little, tiny locals-only park. Have you seen how small their... Castle is? Walt didn't even like Disneyland, and he bought the land in Florida to fix all of the deadly mistakes he made with Disneyland. Walt hated Disneyland, more than he hated Communists and the Sierra Club. WDW is the Flagship of the line. WDW is where the MAGIC lives! They can't maintain WDW as nicely as Disneyland because there's more acreage at WDW, so it's harder for the maintenance guys to drive around at WDW. And they can't close a ride for rehab at WDW because if they do vacations will be ruined! And they only build new rides at Disneyland to test them out before they get installed for real at WDW.

Don't tell me there is actual quality and quantity and sparkling new ideas being presented to paying customers enjoying themselves at that little Disneyland property in Southern California!

Oh, wait.... :cool:

Yeah, no closures because people will be ED!

Wait a second, wasn't Space Mountain at Disneyland closed for two whole years? Hhhmmm...
 

PirateFrank

Well-Known Member
Do you think WDW is missing some magic because all of these bashing threads? The more I come here and read the threads the more the magic gets spoiled. Luckily I went to WDW a couple of weeks ago and saw it wasn't the doom and gloom posted here.....

I used to think that too. I would read all the negativity here, but when it came time for our yearly family pilgrimage down to O-town, We would strap on the Mickey ears, fly down, stay at our big bad evil DVC, flash our APs to get into the parks, and soak up the magic with tears of joy. Then I would fly back home, read the forums and go 'they're just wrong. Especially that nut job Spirit!' I was just there and it was so MAGICal!

Then the past year happened. Since October of 2011, we've spent approx 29 days in WDW theme parks spanning 4 trips -- oct '11, April '12, nov '12 and jan '13. Maybe it was just too much....but with each successive trip from that oct 11 trip to the most recent one, something would either be broken and/or break. Whether it was broken ani's on EE/splash/SSE/malestrom/Potc, projection problems on soarin, the queue screen on JotLM showing the M$ windows blue screen, a problem with my room key that lasted the whole oct '12 trip, Minnie flashing angry hand gestures while reluctantly taking a picture with my daughter at chef mickeys, the monorail crapping out, a fast pass surge frequently turning a 20 minute wait into an hour, a 60 minute wait for a seat at crystal palace even though i had an ADR that I had only because I woke up at the but-crack of dawn 180 days prior .....after a while, these broken things start to annoy you like a bad blister or a chafed thigh, because they are either so voluminous or egregious that you can't overlook it.

But even if it was just what I described above, I might not be as negative on the place as I currently am. Two separate, unconnected issues/events have solidified my resolve that WDW is in a death spiral and needs immediate help now.

First, is the current agregate mindset of WDW cast members. Prior to oct '11, if any of the above issues threatened my enjoyment of my vacation, I would seek a CM. I would be polite and courteous.....and the CM would take care of the problem. How it was taken care of is/was immaterial. They would get it done and before you had a chance to let the issue soil your trip, they would fix the problem and do something special for you. I think back to a trip in 09. My daughter had her first bibbidi appointment in the morning followed by her first breakfast at CRT. However, within 5 min of sitting down at a chair in bibbidi, she got violently ill. The bibbidi CM's treated her with such respect and care. They all flocked to her aid while she heaved into a pail. We had to cancel the the bibbidi appointment and the CRT ADR and take her back to the room. However, within 2 hours of canceling bibbidi and the CRT adr, we got a call from a CM at WDW informing us that our bibbidi appointment was rescheduled for 2 days later and they arranged for a table at CRT immediately afterwards. She also told us that if our daughter was still sick, they would happily reschedule a later date, Then, 2 days later, while at our rescheduled CRT breakfast, each and every princess asked my daughter if she was feeling better. It convinced my then almost 4 year old daughter that the princesses really were magical and real. It brought my wife to tears. Unfortunately. That was the end of the magic. Each trip following that one, I had at least one experience with a cast member per trip that was putrid. Whether it was a CR cast member checking you into your room at BLT who was just nasty and who said "you DVC people can be so annoying" or a CM at guest relations in the Mk that wouldn't stop rolling her eyes at you when you came in with a complaint/concern or problem. The general feeling i got was that the cast members simply don't care any more. They treat a conflict or problem with frustration and they treat the guest with disdain. Nothing makes me angrier than watching a CM point in that traditional disney way...you know, with three fingers, but with their eyes and the rest of their body language, they are screaming 'FU, you annoying guest, don't you bother me ever again'. They were clearly taught how to point in disney fashion, but they either forgot *why* or never learned *why* in the first place. I shudder to think what would have happened if my daughter got sick in bibbidi today, just 4 years later. Would the cast member scream "get out of here, before she throws up on the floor!"??? Sadly, that particular reaction doesn't seem very foreign for today's CM.

The second event, occurred during our jan '13 trip. The first half of the trip was spent at universal, at the royal pac. It was our first stay at Uni. Every team member we bumped into was respectful, friendly, talkative and generally excited to be working at uni. It was infectious.....but there was something far greater that happened this trip compared to other trips...we relaxed! We have grown to accept the fact that WDW trips were/are stressful. Each meal at WDW is planned 180 days in advance. At wdw, We raced from fast pass to fast pass. Not at uni. We woke up when we wanted, we ate breakfast when we wanted. We went back to the royal PAC in the middle of the afternoon for lazy swims. We enjoyed clean theme parks with friendly TMs. People often talk about the fact that uni is beating WDW in the uncontested attraction war......but very few people talk about the fact that uni is beating the crap out of WDW in the intangible race. What used to be wdw's secret weapon -- guest service, has been usurped by universal....

Just a week ago, I was telling my kids how much I missed universal and wished we were going back soon. They asked where their real dad is being held.....
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
Incredible post - wish I could like it 10x

The CMs pride in ownership of the resort is one of the main differentiators in Tokyo and CA. They can truly make or break the experience. As more CMs who "get it" continue to leave WDW, the magic pool will continue to dilute. Hopefully at a minimum George K can change some of the culture. At least that would be a start.
 

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