"Adios" El Rio del Tiempo!

[mousermerf]

Victor.. you have no idea what the ride was depicting.

Silly rainbow dancers? I think I would cry if i designed it and that's what you got from it...

That is why it is changing.

 

[Victor]

Victor.. you have no idea what the ride was depicting. You learned nothing from it. Honestly - you are so far off base it's not funny.

Silly rainbow dancers? I think I would cry if i designed it and that's what you got from it...

That is why it is changing.

It was a joke. I don't think Aztecs are silly, I think the dated video is silly. I get the point, but it takes up too much time in a short ride. So what should I have learned from it...hmmm?

By the way, I'm all for it changing. Minus Donald of course. Like I said, the story isn't very cohesive or easy to understand...

 

[mousermerf]

It was a joke. I get the point, but it takes up too much time in a short ride. So what should I have learned from it...hmmm?

Well, i editted because i thought my wording looked a little too harsh, but oh well Give me a few mins, i'm pulling out the Ye Olde Book-O-Epcot for reference. I'll type up what it says. (Thanks for not taking offense to my statement, it wasn't meant to be offensive.)

 

[Victor]

Well, i editted because i thought my wording looked a little too harsh, but oh well Give me a few mins, i'm pulling out the Ye Olde Book-O-Epcot for reference. I'll type up what it says. (Thanks for not taking offense to my statement, it wasn't meant to be offensive.)

Cool beans, it's much appreciated. No offense was taken. I just pulled out my 1982 souvenir book and read the brief description of this part of the ride. My bad for not reading! :brick: However, I'm sure the sequence still puzzles many...

 

[Epcot82Guy]

I appreciate the sentiment, Victor. I think often people get bogged down in "I love it"/"I hate it" and don't suggest improvement suggestions.

I know I can be an avid armchair imagineer, so I will keep this brief. Ideally, I think the narrator should have a much more prominent role in the attraction. The attraction is divided (actually) fairly well in concept. However, it is not divided per se by time; it is divided by culture. You have the History, the Celebration, the Beauty, and the "ending" (i.e. we need a new one here). I really think adding better technology to these scenes and some new storylines would work well to deal with this, especially in the second half of the ride. Showcase each of the Mexican celebrations blatantly in the mini-IASW. Change our rocky ledges a bit to showcase more the natural beauty of the Mexican shores. Finally, change our favorite marketplace barkers into scenes overlooking the Mexican countryside (with ruins or some other representation). Finally, end up in a better replica of Mexican culture (using video technology) or anything else the Imagineers can dream up. Rename it Celebracion de Mexico or El Rio de la cultura.

Having said all of this, I have really been thinking about this a lot with this debate. I am not a fan of characters in the parks, but I never was. Even as a kid. But, I am willing to concede a bit on this IF they are being treated as Ambassadors only. What has me greatly concerned is the approach this may take. As great as Nemo is as an attraction, it REALLY missed the mark in my opinion. Not because of how it looks, but what it could have been. It would have been very simple to have reworked the story so that the search for Nemo ended in Nemo really showing the new world he found. The new "Friends" and the importance of what they can do. That simply does not come across from what I can tell. Simply put, the attractions MUST FOCUS on the achievement/culture to be Epcot. I am fearful that may not be the case with marketable characters in the mix.

 

[Epcot82Guy]

Sorry for the double post. Saw another thing I missed.

I think the analogy for TL is a wonderfully though-invoking thing. The thing about TL that baffles me is that it went from having an OK theme in its white form to having a theme that ABSOLUTELY matched with both the MK on a macroscale and within itself. It was truly outstanding plussing and execution by WDI IMHO. Epcot Center suffered from a similar fate. It was better in many ways, but it really could have had some more cohesion added to its abstract "soul". It seemed to me this new concept of celebration of accomplishment was a great way to do so. Turn Future World into the Future Worlds Fair. Instead of looking ahead 30 years; really showcase how fun and interesting what we are doing today is (which will stay relevant for at least 10-15 years - TT isn;t going anywhere soon from a relevancy standpoint). Then really increase the content of WS. I refuse to think our society has gone so far down that this wouldn't work in execution. I think about how amazing Epcot would have been if all the renovations would have been in the style of Soarin' (in that it replaced a mediocre attraction with a blockbuster). Just like TL, this would have taken something that worked in some ways and made it even better. It would have allowed people to understand the park easier while not pandering away from those that loved what it was. It would have been grounded in reality where you could lose yourself since it was familiar.

The problem is that the marketable characters don't factor well into reality. Nemo had nothing to do with the development of undersea technology. It is the concept of necessity, I guess. TL created a world that functioned quite well and successfully (absent the scared kids idea) and is now becoming disjointed. The difference: Epcot is becoming more integrated (TT, Soarin', LwtL, etc.) and more distanced (characters potentially shoehorned in) simultaneously and is not as character-demanding as the MK is.

 

[mousermerf]

Excerpts and my interpetation of information in..

"Walt Disney's EPCOT Center: Creating the New World of Tomorrow" 1982 Walt Disney Productions - Text by Richard R. Beard

It starts with basic notes on the pavilion. It was designed by Mexican Americans, it says it's a labor of love for them and reflects it. Some various facts, including:

pg 227 -

A major part of the story of Mexico is told through the medium of the dance, a device as engaging as it is unusual.

The pyramid inside the pavilion (in seperated by the boat ride and lagoon) has/had light and sound shows for guests on the ride and in the restaurant. One of them portrayed a Mayan myth...

pg 231

"-of how the gods wrested the gift of music from a jealous un and bestowed it upon an earth starved for song.

"Life was all music from that time on," concludes the legend. this seems to be bourne out in the ride-through attraction, "Rio de Tiempo"

The ride depicts the "The Cultures of Mexico" according to the book: pre-Columbian, Spanish-Colonial, and Modern Mexico. After passing the pyramid (the area is a mix of Mayan, Toltec and Aztec) you enter a "time tunnel." At the end of the tunnel, a stone statue of a Mayan high priest comes to life and welcomes you to his city.

You then see the dances, which are in period costumes and are "stylizations" (read: interpetive dances) of the accolpishments of the 3 great ancient civilizations.

The book discusses the dances on the screens...

pg 232

The first of the dances, "Nature and Sciences," pays tribute to the ancients' acknowledgement of the interrelationship between man and the universe. Another, "Mathematics and Astronomy," hints at the Mayas' incredible sophistication in these demanding disciplines. The Mayas used zero in their calendar, the first people to have grasped the abstruse concept.

The Quetzalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca sequence symbolize the enternal struggle between good and evil.

There are other screens depicting other scenes including Moctezuma II (he's important, pay attention to him.)

Then how does this go into singing children like "small world" one wonders? The book explains.. Revelations.. brace yourself...

pg 235

The arrival of the Spainards and the subsequent rape of an entire civilization is portrayed so subtly as to be a mere whisper of a hint - Moctezuma contemplating the fall of a comet that foretells disaster to his people. The portion of the ride that follows reflects the indomitability of the Mexican people.

With the population now half Spanish, half Indian, we move into the Colonial period....

That's how that whole sequence makes sense. Moctezuma (like any of us knew he WAS Moctezuma) points to a falling star and that spells doom for the native people and viola.. the civilation falls and then we're shown that the people of Mexico can't be held down.

Wow.. From there we float into the "cities of the 1980's" (pg 237) according to the book. Modern Mexico. *shrug*

 

[Victor]

Excerpts and my interpetation of information in..

"Walt Disney's EPCOT Center: Creating the New World of Tomorrow" 1982 Walt Disney Productions - Text by Richard R. Beard

It starts with basic notes on the pavilion. It was designed by Mexican Americans, it says it's a labor of love for them and reflects it. Some various facts, including:

pg 227 -

The pyramid inside the pavilion (in seperated by the boat ride and lagoon) has/had light and sound shows for guests on the ride and in the restaurant. One of them portrayed a Mayan myth...

pg 231

The ride depicts the "The Cultures of Mexico" according to the book: pre-Columbian, Spanish-Colonial, and Modern Mexico. After passing the pyramid (the area is a mix of Mayan, Toltec and Aztec) you enter a "time tunnel." At the end of the tunnel, a stone statue of a Mayan high priest comes to life and welcomes you to his city.

You then see the dances, which are in period costumes and are "stylizations" (read: interpetive dances) of the accolpishments of the 3 great ancient civilizations.

The book discusses the dances on the screens...

pg 232

There are other screens depicting other scenes including Moctezuma II (he's important, pay attention to him.)

Then how does this go into singing children like "small world" one wonders? The book explains.. Revelations.. brace yourself...

pg 235

That's how that whole sequence makes sense. Moctezuma (like any of us knew he WAS Moctezuma) points to a falling star and that spells doom for the native people and viola.. the civilation falls and then we're shown that the people of Mexico can't be held down.

Wow.. From there we float into the "cities of the 1980's" (pg 237) according to the book. Modern Mexico. *shrug*

Great, thanks! I just won this book on ebay. If the rest of it is as informative as that, I'm excited! As far as Future World goes, I think I know pretty much all there is to know. Hopefully I'll be surprised,

 

[v_misses_epcot]

3 Cabelleros is actually a sequel. South American countries fought over who got who got to be featured in the second film, because Saludos Amigos (the first film) was so popular.

Mexico won. Panchito Pistoles was created as a new character.

Jose came from the first film - Donald was already from the first film and the Fab 5.

Anyone who thinks that the film being used to promote the culture of the country through Disney characters is demeaning and offesnsive is neglecting the history of the film.

THAT'S IT!! I was going to read till the end of this thread but I had to comment in here. I agree with victor.

I'm mexican and I sure in hell don't want donald or the birds along with the history of mexico just because you think that characters will update the ride.

Yes, they need to update it, but go to mexico and get some fresh beautiful scenes from over there, drop the sterotyped mexicans trying to sell things, keep the history of the mayas and incas but to add donald and friends just to please disney and ignore the fact it's a MEXICO Pavillion is PURE POPPYCOCK!!!! UGH!!

Anyone who thinks that the film being used to promote the culture of the country through Disney characters is demeaning and offesnsive is neglecting the history of the film.

That's the thing, MEXICO isn't supposed to be about the freaking film! Do you hear yourself talk everytime you post here or in other threads!? You always overanalize, think everything needs an update, think you know it all and I'm tired of it. What do you mean nobody rides that ride? I talk to guest on daily and I always ask them what they liked about the countries and they always tell me the boat rides from mexico and norway. You're so negative about everything. "Noone rides the ride?" You know what? I do!!!

Seriously, the only thing offensive and demeaning here is the fact that they might add the Three Cabelleros to the history of Mexico.

As a mexican, NOW THAT'S WHAT I'll find offensive!!

I love the ride, the music brings memories of home, the colors and intro to our history is nice..The beaches are beautiful!! Sure, I don't like the sterotype much....I mean, sterotypes have some truth to them yes, but they overexagerated much.

 

[v_misses_epcot]

It's a good thing I took a lot of pictures back in the day, because the "slow" people of Earth have spoken. Goodbye, classic, wonderful EPCOT Center. Hello, 2nd park with no originality to set it apart.

...and yes, for those wondering, with the word "slow" I'm referring to those that have become so ridiculously lazy from the internet and other similar things in this "I must have it now, entertain me, I'm entitled" society, that they can't take 2 seconds to be educated on the important things in life.

"This is Disney! It's ALL about fun and thrilling things! I want PINS, CHARACTERS, AND RIDES MY CHILDREN WILL ENJOY everywhere on property! I want cake! Duuuuur.....uhhhhhh....more cake!"

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Exactly!! Do you know how fustrating I get when people won't hear my show in innoventions at the house or at fantastic plastic works...."DUR DUR DUR.....I THINK I'LL COMPLETELY IGNORE YOU AND WALK AROUND" That's freaking rude!! Or when you just give a whole list of things NOT TO DO at illuminations and yet everyone ignores you and does it anyhow....And finally....when you just explained a whole game of oppurtunity city to a family and they're like "so what's this all about?" :brick: :brick: :brick:

Everyone is so inpatient nowadays!! Omg!! 30 MINUTES FOR SOARING!! We need fast passes.....PINS!@!! FUNNEL CAKES AND SPRINKLES OH MY!! >_>;

For the people who said that mexico pavillion is "boring" well....that's just because noone takes the time to learn about the countries or the pavillions or ask around....The pavillions aren't boring....it's the people that don't take the time to learn about the countries and are always in a hurry to get out of there.

At illuminations, everyone is always rushing to get out of the park to get to the monorail or busses fast. JEEZ!! Running over people, pushing and shoving.... *sighs* Let me tell you one thing folks, it's going to be packed nomatter how fast you run up to the front of the park.

 

[mousermerf]

Well, v, I just explained with cited proof what the Mexico boat ride is actually about...

Now tell me.. How many guests actually got any of that information from riding the ride? I don't think any of them did. I don't think anyone realized the falling star / comet was symbolic of the end of a civilization and segway into the next era.

The show never translated well. If no one understands your message then you're not saying it properly.

 

[DDuckFan130]

Well, v, I just explained with cited proof what the Mexico boat ride is actually about...

Now tell me.. How many guests actually got any of that information from riding the ride? I don't think any of them did. I don't think anyone realized the falling star / comet was symbolic of the end of a civilization and segway into the next era.

The show never translated well. If no one understands your message then you're not saying it properly.

One thing I don't get about your excerpts...the whole "small world" part is a depiction of El Dia de los Muertos, where food and offerings are taken to the cemetary to buried loved ones, or something like that...not exactly sure.

Does it mention that? Because I'm pretty sure that's what it is based on with the skeletons playing mariachi music :lol:

 

[DDuckFan130]

THAT'S IT!! I was going to read till the end of this thread but I had to comment in here. I agree with victor.

I'm mexican and I sure in hell don't want donald or the birds along with the history of mexico just because you think that characters will update the ride.

Yes, they need to update it, but go to mexico and get some fresh beautiful scenes from over there, drop the sterotyped mexicans trying to sell things, keep the history of the mayas and incas but to add donald and friends just to please disney and ignore the fact it's a MEXICO Pavillion is PURE POPPYCOCK!!!! UGH!!



That's the thing, MEXICO isn't supposed to be about the freaking film! Do you hear yourself talk everytime you post here or in other threads!? You always overanalize, think everything needs an update, think you know it all and I'm tired of it. What do you mean nobody rides that ride? I talk to guest on daily and I always ask them what they liked about the countries and they always tell me the boat rides from mexico and norway. You're so negative about everything. "Noone rides the ride?" You know what? I do!!!

Seriously, the only thing offensive and demeaning here is the fact that they might add the Three Cabelleros to the history of Mexico.

As a mexican, NOW THAT'S WHAT I'll find offensive!!

I love the ride, the music brings memories of home, the colors and intro to our history is nice..The beaches are beautiful!! Sure, I don't like the sterotype much....I mean, sterotypes have some truth to them yes, but they overexagerated much.

BREATHE! :lookaroun

:lol:

I can see a lot of us are frustrated with something that hasn't come to fruition yet. Can we just wait and see what happens? :lookaroun

 

[Epcot82Guy]

I guess I see a middle ground between having Donald host our tour to Mexico and the status quo. I agree that in the dozens of times I've been on the attraction, I didn't get each part of it. However, I don't think it is that far off. If Donald et al solely appear to make the story more coherent and to enhance the concepts already there, I think it can be effective (I still stand by the ability to make it just as/if not more than effective without a marketable Disney brand). However, I really don't trust that this will happen. Just a few pavilions over, we see that in the living video flesh.

 

[DDuckFan130]

I guess I see a middle ground between having Donald host our tour to Mexico and the status quo. I agree that in the dozens of times I've been on the attraction, I didn't get each part of it. However, I don't think it is that far off. If Donald et al solely appear to make the story more coherent and to enhance the concepts already there, I think it can be effective (I still stand by the ability to make it just as/if not more than effective without a marketable Disney brand). However, I really don't trust that this will happen. Just a few pavilions over, we see that in the living video flesh.

Donald Duck? Coherent?

:lookaroun

 

[planet7]

Well, v, I just explained with cited proof what the Mexico boat ride is actually about... The show never translated well. If no one understands your message then you're not saying it properly.

That is true of many Disney attractions. The backstory is usually far more complex than can be conveyed in a short attraction. Did you know, for example, that Universe of Energy's diorama covers a span of 300 million years? I didn't, until I researched it. Or even the far more obvious purpose of the "Barn Theaters" in Living with the Land. Or the "Telemetry Tunnel" in Spaceship Earth?

If the guest enjoys the ride and gets at least a general sense of what is being conveyed, I think they've done well. It also gives the guest an opportunity to discover more on subsequent visits.

G7

 

[mousermerf]

The skeletons are playing over the bridge as you transition into the Colonial period with the children.

In the book you can see them in earlier/unused concept art on a similiarly shaped bridge, but it is obviously wooden, like part of a tree, as if it was a fallen tree over the river - maybe it was a more direct tie into the ancient cultural scenes. I'm tempted to say they're there to mourn the loss of the culture, but "show the strength of the people" because they celebrate and revel.

The boats with the decorations are after the caves with tourist attractions (after the Colonial period) which are part of modern Mexico.

The book says the Colonial period is a fiesta, but never specifies for what.. nor does it describe what the Modern scene seems to be celebrating either. Just "fiestas."

 

[Epcot82Guy]

BREATHE! :lookaroun

:lol:

I can see a lot of us are frustrated with something that hasn't come to fruition yet. Can we just wait and see what happens? :lookaroun

While I understand this sentiment, this one has a bit more of a problem to it for this reason. If a Norwegian came in talking about Akershus, I would certainly understand their concern. Once it's done, offense has happened. This isn't about whether you like EPCOT Center or Epcot (necessarily); this is about someone's culture. I will go directly on record that the day Mickey gets up and tells me about American history is the day I stop going to Disney (and will preach that from the mountain top) - and he is American! I just think it is potentially dangerous ground to present Disney's Mexico at Epcot. Certainly what we have may be seen as stereotypical and outdated. But, I REALLY question this decision, especially from the risk-averse corporate megashop. v's post just goes to solidify that concern I have, regardless of any classic vs. new sentiment I have.

 

[planet7]

Let me tell you one thing folks, it's going to be packed nomatter how fast you run up to the front of the park.

My favorite thing to do is to take a slow, lesiurely stroll through World Showcase after Illuminations. I find that I get out about as quickly as I would have otherwise, with far less stress, and I enjoy the scenery along the way.

G7

 

[DDuckFan130]

The skeletons are playing over the bridge as you transition into the Colonial period with the children.

In the book you can see them in earlier/unused concept art on a similiarly shaped bridge, but it is obviously wooden, like part of a tree, as if it was a fallen tree over the river - maybe it was a more direct tie into the ancient cultural scenes. I'm tempted to say they're there to mourn the loss of the culture, but "show the strength of the people" because they celebrate and revel.

The boats with the decorations are after the caves with tourist attractions (after the Colonial period) which are part of modern Mexico.

The book says the Colonial period is a fiesta, but never specifies for what.. nor does it describe what the Modern scene seems to be celebrating either. Just "fiestas."

Ok then...I just told you

The other possibility is that they just incorporated that particular celebration with others. But oh well, every time I see that scene, I think of that :lol: