Accused of Pizza Flyer Scam at Dolphin.

[Oddysey]

Whether or not walking out makes you look guilty or not, I still would have done so. If you didn't do something that you're being accused of and you're not dealing with the police, I wouldn't hand over my ID. I would have explained what I was doing up there, left it at that, told them I was leaving, and walked out the doors. If the hotel really wanted to pursue it then they would give the police his description. And guilty or not, they're not going to see Jake on that property anymore anyway.

It is very likely that you could walk out with no consequence. However, you are assuming that there is no law enforment nearby that could be called upon to detain you as you are leaving. In fact, a security employee of the hotel could follow you so that he could keep tabs on your location while the police officer is on his way. Once the police officer detains you, they are going to be suspicious of you because you did not initially cooperate, and walked out as soon as the request for ID was made. It is unlikely that a police officer would be close enough to your location to detain you, and it is unlikely that a security employee would follow you, but you are assuming these things to be true. I would not feel safe making these assumptions.

 

[Pioneer Hall]

So then i should get in trouble for trespassing onto Contemporary,Poly,Wilderness, and boardwalk.

If they don't like it when non-hotel guests walk thru the guest room halls, then they should make it clear somewhere.

I wasn't doing anything to disturb anybody up there.

Actually, yes you could very well get in trouble for trespassing at the other resorts if the resort believed you were doing something wrong (as was your case). The problem here in my mind isn't that you were stopped. Just because you weren't doing something wrong, doesn't mean that you didn't look like you were. These pizza places hire people your age to go and give out these menus...you were in the wrong place at the wrong time and in an area that you had no real reason to be in. If you were in any other resort, the same thing could have happened if a staff member or guest thought you looked suspicious. The second you start wandering into areas that aren't "public" areas of the resort you can seem suspicious if you are just looking around.

How the situation was handled seems to be the problem here. They shouldn't have bothered you as much as they did after you were able to show you weren't part of the nonsense. However, you had every right to leave if you thought it was becoming harassing.

I still don't think someone needs a sign telling them that they don't have a right to be wandering hallways that only contain guest rooms. Not corridors leading to semipublic areas, such as restaurants, shops, etc, and not the outside grounds of a hotel, but only rooms where guests are sleeping, showering, have left their belongings, etc.

And, as a frequent hotel guest, I'm concerned that so many see nothing wrong with wandering in those hallways.

Under most circumstances security would not have had a right to detain him - except in this case he was wandering the same time others were committing illegal trespass, so they had probable cause. That's what makes the difference - he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

They should have just detained him for the police, and let him tell them his story. And maybe they wouldn't have believed him? Instead, he was let off with an apology.

Perhaps he should thank his lucky stars that the "crime" taking place while he was wandering was only trespass, and not something more serious that could have landed him in jail as a suspect.

This concerns me as well. If security sees someone going in and out of the elevators and going down hallways I would be glad to know they did something if I was staying at the hotel. This time it was just pizza flyers, and for all we know this was for a legitimate pizza place (they aren't all scams). However, for all security knows that person who keeps wandering hallways could be looking for a door that didn't close all the way and can steal from the room. As a hotel guest I want to know that security is looking out for these things and acting upon a situation that looks like it can pose a threat to my safety. Even if it won't in almost all cases, it only takes one person in one situation to completely change that. In security's mind the OP was like any other suspicious person, they don't know him and they have no reason to trust him.

 

[CaptainShortty]

Yay putting my hospitality law class to some good use!

The hotel is private property and you being on the property without being a guest or having an intent to be the guest is considered trespassing. That being said, most hotels (clearly) do not invoke this ruling because they want people to come to their lobby, see the hotel, stay in it, and what have you. That does not mean they do not have the right to ask you to leave if they choose to on the grounds that you are not a guest/have no intent to be one currently. The hotel DID have probable cause to ask you questions since they believed you were the one in the video and were invoking their duty of care to keep the guests on their property safe. As soon as they realized that you were not the person they were looking for they should have let you go. The only thing I can see that they did terribly wrong was ask/photograph your license. They did not have probable cause to do it and as many have said you didn't have to/shouldn't have given it to them. That being said, the 16 year old me (heck, the 21 year old me) would have given it to them too in sheer fear of what would have happened if I didn't.

 

[devoy1701]

It is very likely that you could walk out with no consequence. However, you are assuming that there is no law enforment nearby that could be called upon to detain you as you are leaving. In fact, a security employee of the hotel could follow you so that he could keep tabs on your location while the police officer is on his way. Once the police officer detains you, they are going to be suspicious of you because you did not initially cooperate, and walked out as soon as the request for ID was made. It is unlikely that a police officer would be close enough to your location to detain you, and it is unlikely that a security employee would follow you, but you are assuming these things to be true. I would not feel safe making these assumptions.

lol, a lot of hypotheticals in there! I would have taken my chances with leaving. It's usually pretty easy to tell if a person 16 years old is making up a story or not as well, especially for a Police Officer. If a police officer did end up catching up with me and asking why I didn't stay, I would explain it to him, if he asked for my ID, I would have shown it to him. But I again doubt it would have come to that even if a police officer had approached me and asked about it. He probably would have asked what he was doing at the Dolphin, and been able to decide from the story and mannerisms whether or not he was lying and if there was any reason to suspect him of fowl.

Actually, yes you could very well get in trouble for trespassing at the other resorts if the resort believed you were doing something wrong (as was your case). The problem here in my mind isn't that you were stopped. Just because you weren't doing something wrong, doesn't mean that you didn't look like you were. These pizza places hire people your age to go and give out these menus...you were in the wrong place at the wrong time and in an area that you had no real reason to be in. If you were in any other resort, the same thing could have happened if a staff member or guest thought you looked suspicious. The second you start wandering into areas that aren't "public" areas of the resort you can seem suspicious if you are just looking around.

How the situation was handled seems to be the problem here. They shouldn't have bothered you as much as they did after you were able to show you weren't part of the nonsense. However, you had every right to leave if you thought it was becoming harassing.



This concerns me as well. If security sees someone going in and out of the elevators and going down hallways I would be glad to know they did something if I was staying at the hotel. This time it was just pizza flyers, and for all we know this was for a legitimate pizza place (they aren't all scams). However, for all security knows that person who keeps wandering hallways could be looking for a door that didn't close all the way and can steal from the room. As a hotel guest I want to know that security is looking out for these things and acting upon a situation that looks like it can pose a threat to my safety. Even if it won't in almost all cases, it only takes one person in one situation to completely change that. In security's mind the OP was like any other suspicious person, they don't know him and they have no reason to trust him.

You're last sentence there is what concerns me. It's unfortunate that in today's society we have to assume that we can't trust people first.

Yay putting my hospitality law class to some good use!

The hotel is private property and you being on the property without being a guest or having an intent to be the guest is considered trespassing. That being said, most hotels (clearly) do not invoke this ruling because they want people to come to their lobby, see the hotel, stay in it, and what have you. That does not mean they do not have the right to ask you to leave if they choose to on the grounds that you are not a guest/have no intent to be one currently. The hotel DID have probable cause to ask you questions since they believed you were the one in the video and were invoking their duty of care to keep the guests on their property safe. As soon as they realized that you were not the person they were looking for they should have let you go. The only thing I can see that they did terribly wrong was ask/photograph your license. They did not have probable cause to do it and as many have said you didn't have to/shouldn't have given it to them. That being said, the 16 year old me (heck, the 21 year old me) would have given it to them too in sheer fear of what would have happened if I didn't.

I was one of those kids who hated the bad rap that teenagers got and really hated the profiling that was done on young kids. I wouldn't have given up my ID even at that age. But then again by parents wouldn't have let me wonder to Disney by myself at 16 either. lol :lookaroun

 

[njDizFan]

I'm a little on the fence about this topic. I agree that a non-resort guest should not be wandering the halls of private guest rooms. Viewing the lobby and all the other public ammenities is definately a acceptable.

It sounds like security saw a teenager and strong armed him a little into giving ID and making him stay until the situation was cleared. They may have seen another teenager fitting his general description and took a bit of a leap confirming his identity.

Now he definately had the choice of just blowing off the security and leaving the hotel. At that point I'm sure they would have followed him, took down his license plate number and called the police. I think it would have made an even more disturbing experience being pulled over by a few police troopers and possibly being handcuffed and or questioned at the precinct.

I don't really see this as a legal matter, maybe some poor judgement by security but take it as a learning experience.

 

[captainkidd]

I do have to say, I agree that if you're not staying in a hotel, you have no business walking the guest areas.

 

[Pioneer Hall]

lol, a lot of hypotheticals in there! I would have taken my chances with leaving. It's usually pretty easy to tell if a person 16 years old is making up a story or not as well, especially for a Police Officer. If a police officer did end up catching up with me and asking why I didn't stay, I would explain it to him, if he asked for my ID, I would have shown it to him. But I again doubt it would have come to that even if a police officer had approached me and asked about it. He probably would have asked what he was doing at the Dolphin, and been able to decide from the story and mannerisms whether or not he was lying and if there was any reason to suspect him of fowl.



You're last sentence there is what concerns me. It's unfortunate that in today's society we have to assume that we can't trust people first.


I was one of those kids who hated the bad rap that teenagers got and really hated the profiling that was done on young kids. I wouldn't have given up my ID even at that age. But then again by parents wouldn't have let me wonder to Disney by myself at 16 either. lol :lookaroun

Unfortunately, this is what the world has become now. You hear far too many stories about kidnappings, robberies, etc that many people take precautions. I personally don't believe anyone could look at someone with a straight face and say they wouldn't be concerned with someone just wandering down one hallway after another...it screams suspicious. I can't complain that a hotel is looking out for their guests by taking action against something like that. Again, I don't condone the way the resort handled the situation. However, I certainly don't blame them for taking action in this situation. Their number one concern has to be the guests that are staying at their resort.

 

[Scuttle]

So then i should get in trouble for trespassing onto Contemporary,Poly,Wilderness, and boardwalk.

If they don't like it when non-hotel guests walk thru the guest room halls, then they should make it clear somewhere.

I wasn't doing anything to disturb anybody up there.

No I don't know what he was thinking. It's really a major problem at hotels because there is really no solution to the pizza flyers. They tell us to report them to security, but every time i make eye contact with any of them they head to the stairs real quick and takeoff.

 

[Oddysey]

lol, a lot of hypotheticals in there! I would have taken my chances with leaving. It's usually pretty easy to tell if a person 16 years old is making up a story or not as well, especially for a Police Officer. If a police officer did end up catching up with me and asking why I didn't stay, I would explain it to him, if he asked for my ID, I would have shown it to him. But I again doubt it would have come to that even if a police officer had approached me and asked about it. He probably would have asked what he was doing at the Dolphin, and been able to decide from the story and mannerisms whether or not he was lying and if there was any reason to suspect him of fowl. :lookaroun

Agreed, the hypotheticals were based on your hypothetical assumption that you would walk away with no consequence after being asked to see your ID. What it really amounts to is that I am less prone to taking risk than you are.

 

[mkt]

2. It is possible that the hotel employee made a mistake when viewing the video evidence. However, this is not grounds for termination. The hotel employee should be reprimanded for the comment, but not terminated. If the hotel employee has a history of making this mistake then at some point a termination may be warranted. In the end, we are all human and prone to mistakes.

If the CM knew there was no video evidence and lied, he should be terminated. If he truly believed there was video evidence, either because he was told there was or there was confusion as to the OP's indentity, then a reprimand is ok. However the CM should not get off without any punishment for lying to a guest.

3. I do think one should be suspicous when anyone ask for your ID, and I would have had a problem with them taking a picture of it. However, if the security guard were able to show proper credentials then I would be more likely to cooperate. It really is a situation that I would have to be involved in to know just how to handle it. The OP felt it was the best way not to incriminate himself, and it seemed to work.

I don't care who asks. If I am not required by law to show it, I don't show it. If they get pushy, I ask for their manager or a law enforcement officer.

4. You would have looked extremely guilty by immediately walking out, and may have made the situation much worse for yourself.

Or I may have ended the situation

I was detained by WDW Security back in 2004 at the studios for something I did not do. They claimed I had snuck into unauthorized areas to take pictures. I showed them the pictures on my camera, which proved my innocence, and they still didn't believe me. They insisted on an ID, and I refused to show it. They told me they were going to call a security manager to 'deal with me'.

Rather than wait for the manager, I started to walk out of the park. One of the security CM's grabbed my arm forcefully. I turned and told him that if he touches me again, he better call Orange County, because I will be filing charges for assault. I stated I was leaving the park, pulled his hand off me, and continued on my way.

I left the park and finished my day at Epcot.

That evening I sent an e-mail to guest communications and CC'd Lee Cockerell. The following day I received a call apologizing for the security CM's behavior, specifically their grabbing me, and was told that after showing the pictures proving I wasn't there, the incident should have ended.

 

[devoy1701]

I was detained by WDW Security back in 2004 at the studios for something I did not do. They claimed I had snuck into unauthorized areas to take pictures. I showed them the pictures on my camera, which proved my innocence, and they still didn't believe me. They insisted on an ID, and I refused to show it. They told me they were going to call a security manager to 'deal with me'.

Rather than wait for the manager, I started to walk out of the park. One of the security CM's grabbed my arm forcefully. I turned and told him that if he touches me again, he better call Orange County, because I will be filing charges for assault. I stated I was leaving the park, pulled his hand off me, and continued on my way.

I left the park and finished my day at Epcot.

That evening I sent an e-mail to guest communications and CC'd Lee Cockerell. The following day I received a call apologizing for the security CM's behavior, specifically their grabbing me, and was told that after showing the pictures proving I wasn't there, the incident should have ended.

What, are they hiding contraband or running a black market operation back there or something?

I hope you noted the CMs name and was able to give it to Guest Communications.

geez...

 

[Hakunamatata]

He tends to take the opposite stance on these kinds of threads...I think just to stir up other posters.

No. He lives in a country where if you are on private property uninvited you are trespassing. :wave:

 

[theadmiral459]

You know after reading this I have mixed results about this I believe we should be able to look around the lobby at the hotels without going to the actually hallways with the rooms , like other members on here have said that way I can see if I like to stay here in the future. Now what bothers me like a lot of other people have said giving up the ID it proved innocence agreed but also giving up the ID also leaves an open door for identity theft and taking a picture they have half of your information and with technology these days who knows where that would end up. I am really surprised he hasn't got the media involved in this see what's happens then .

 

[Oddysey]

What, are they hiding contraband or running a black market operation back there or something?

I hope you noted the CMs name and was able to give it to Guest Communications.

geez...

No its not contraband, its pixie dust. Pixie dust has far more addictive qualities, and the potential to consume an innocent victims life. If not for pixie dust, I would not be wasting time on this forum. I should never have ventured backstage on one of those "magical" tours.

 

[Todd L]

And how would they know where my door was had if I hadn't handed over my ID? :animwink:

I very much doubt the hotel staff would have pursued it to that end had he decided to walk out of the hotel after explaining what he was doing up there. Dealing with the situation at the moment shouldn't have had to go beyond "I was up there because I was looking for a balcony on the higher floors that would give me a view of the entire property. I wasn't aware that I would get in trouble for being up there. I'm Sorry."

Yeah,,,youre right and a sensible person Like you or I would accept that answer and let it go at that .

like always its the few that make it bad for everyone else in the world.

Its a Shame.

 

[Est1971]

"That being said, the 16 year old me (heck, the 21 year old me) would have given it to them too in sheer fear of what would have happened if I didn't."

Hell no!!!! I would barely hand it over to the cops...lol... But no seriously I would have laughed in their face and probably cused them out and just left.... you just don't freely show some "security guards" ur I'd/license!!!

 

[Todd L]

At least everyone here is being civil and having a good discussion .

No name calling or nastiness going on!!

 

[devoy1701]

Yeah,,,youre right and a sensible person Like you or I would accept that answer and let it go at that .

like always its the few that make it bad for everyone else in the world.

Its a Shame.

"That being said, the 16 year old me (heck, the 21 year old me) would have given it to them too in sheer fear of what would have happened if I didn't."

Hell no!!!! I would barely hand it over to the cops...lol... But no seriously I would have laughed in their face and probably cused them out and just left.... you just don't freely show some "security guards" ur I'd/license!!!

um....:lookaroun lol

I think it would also be a matter of how you handle the situation yourself on whether they attempt to challenge your refusal to hand over your ID. I'm not sure what cussing them out and laughing at them in their face would accomplish besides making them want to make the rest of your afternoon a living hell. Calmly explaining why you were there and apologizing followed by a sincere but stern "but I am not going to surrender my License to you" would have been perfectly acceptable.

 

[xdan0920]

A couple of things I have thought whilst reading this thread.

1. The security seems to have been a bit overzealous. Detaining a 16 year old for a half hour because of a pizza menu scam, that had nothing to do with him is silly.

2. Poor choice of words by Jake to say he does not look like the "type" to be involved in a scam. However, it should not be difficult for security personal to tell who was involved and who was not. Especially when it is a kid with an annual pass and a camera, who they had no evidence of any wrong doing. Again, overzealous guards.

3. All this talk about not roaming in "guest areas". Unless a hallway is labeled "Guests only" how can one know which areas are guest only? I have been to plenty of hotels containing restaurants, lounges, bars intermingled into guest areas. I have also gotten myself turned around in those hotels and wandered down dead ends that only contained guest areas. Is this really a problem? Should I have been apprehended? There is plenty of grey area here.

4. Filing a law suit will get Jake nowhere at all. It would be a terrible waste of his time and resources.

5. IMO Jake, you did the right thing by staying composed and just following the directions of the guards, no matter how misguided they may have been. You definitely chose the path of least resistance, and probably saved yourself the added headache of a major confrontation. However, if you did truly feel you rights were being violated in a manner that was not tolerable, you should have called the police yourself. Knowledge for next time I guess.

 

[captainkidd]

3. All this talk about not roaming in "guest areas". Unless a hallway is labeled "Guests only" how can one know which areas are guest only?

Common sense. I've stayed at many Disney Resorts and rooms are clearly separate from public areas.