A Terror-rific Spirited 13th (ToT fans have lots to fear)...

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
I'd go as far to say this lack of intent runs up to the most high profile rides. I may get grief for this, but Radiator Springs Racers even fell into this trap. Cars the film had themes like friendship, the importance of home, finding wisdom in those that came before. None of those translated to the high profile attraction.

It ultimately boils down to drive by pretty scenery, relive moments from the film, race. If we're talking about attractions that have a soul, Hong Kong's Mystic Manor is a far more ambitious and better executed example. You'd expect a creative like John L. to want real storytelling, but strangely it was a best of hits from his film. This is yet another reason I'm hesitant to get excited about IP attractions.

It really did put you "into the world of Cars," but failed critically to put you into a story.

No grief from me, I totally understand your point. In my mind it falls into some of those tropes, but manages to skirt several other plaguing problems in themed design. It's certainly not a little Mermaid by the book retelling. There are clear scenes that recall the movies and the actual town scene that functions as a "look at all your favourite characters", but there is a different original narrative to the ride than the movie.

It's not an excellent narrative, nor does it scrape much beyond a narrative for a 3 year old, but in no way is RSR a total failure in this regard. That's more a dysfunction of Cars as a medium. However, I think most people once upon a time had very, very low expectations for that land and in many ways they escaped many tropes WDI has fallen into.

Mermaid is the DCA prototype of something really going amuck. There is a reason though many people consider Mystic Manor superior to RSR, despite the obvious gobs of cash spent on RSR, the over the top scale - compared to a relatively intimate dark ride. As you've pointed out, that definitely comes down to narrative. On the opposite spectrum, there are times when a ride's sheer imagination allows one to kind of put aside a messy narrative, like Forbidden Journey.

There is something potentially commendable about what they are doing with Star Wars. Even if Disney as a corporation nearly fell into the rehash bin with original plans - and needed a swift kick in the behind by the board. I'm hopeful it will work out, but if IP is our only future, I'm glad there are at least a few people who understand you can create an original narrative and not a physical rehash of a movie.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
"Theming" is a rather pointless term that is not synonymous with ornament. Lots of stuff to look at does not make a theme. This is the problem Disney has run into a lot lately, lots of stuff to look at but devoid of any real intent or meaning beyond being there.
Is the fact that that's what it's supposed to look like not reason enough to put something in a land?
No grief from me, I totally understand your point. In my mind it falls into some of those tropes, but manages to skirt several other plaguing problems in themed design. It's certainly not a little Mermaid by the book retelling. There are clear scenes that recall the movies and the actual town scene that functions as a "look at all your favourite characters", but there is a different original narrative to the ride than the movie.

It's not an excellent narrative, nor does it scrape much beyond a narrative for a 3 year old, but in no way is RSR a total failure in this regard. That's more a dysfunction of Cars as a medium. However, I think most people once upon a time had very, very low expectations for that land and in many ways they escaped many tropes WDI has fallen into.

Mermaid is the DCA prototype of something really going amuck. There is a reason though many people consider Mystic Manor superior to RSR, despite the obvious gobs of cash spent on RSR, the over the top scale - compared to a relatively intimate dark ride. As you've pointed out, that definitely comes down to narrative. On the opposite spectrum, there are times when a ride's sheer imagination allows one to kind of put aside a messy narrative, like Forbidden Journey.

There is something potentially commendable about what they are doing with Star Wars. Even if Disney as a corporation nearly fell into the rehash bin with original plans - and needed a swift kick in the behind by the board. I'm hopeful it will work out, but if IP is our only future, I'm glad there are at least a few people who understand you can create an original narrative and not a physical rehash of a movie.
Although not as ambitious as Forbidden Journey by today's standards I'd put Star Tours in that same boat. Messy narrative but what it does it does very well.
 

matt9112

Well-Known Member
Except with Despicable Me, Hippogriff, Dragon Challege, and Simpsons... yes ;)

i will give you the first and last....the middle two where legit name changes and i dont think can be classified as an overlay if so any coaster that ever gets rethemed would be an overlay.
 

TalkingHead

Well-Known Member
Haven't really been following the theme park news lately but, given international affairs seem as destabilized as they've been in a heck of a long time, how would TWDC respond if there should be an international conflict with the U.S. and China? Would the stock price just take a nose dive? Any idea what would happen with the operations of the China parks?
 

Stitchon

Well-Known Member
I hold out some hope for Pandora as an IP based attraction. I don't expect the rides to just be a retelling of the movie. I guess we'll know soon.

I'm hoping that the complete lack of interest in the Avatar IP from the general public will force them to create a compelling narrative for the area.
 

Quinnmac000

Well-Known Member
Haven't really been following the theme park news lately but, given international affairs seem as destabilized as they've been in a heck of a long time, how would TWDC respond if there should be an international conflict with the U.S. and China? Would the stock price just take a nose dive? Any idea what would happen with the operations of the China parks?

Iger is on Trump economic advisory committee so I doubt there will be any effect at least for Disney.
 

DDLand

Well-Known Member
Much like other art mediums, it started simple.

Before there were Broadway Musicals, there were simple musical acts. Before there were movies, there were silent pictures that showed mere oddities or interesting subject matter.

Initially the technology itself can be a large justifier for the creation of content. Eventually it becomes commonplace and becomes less about the technology and more about how you use it.

I don't pretend that for some people a physical sensation (like a roller coaster) or just nice scenery is good enough. Typically however, art forms become more structured not less. As years of incremental experiments and boundary pushing refines the craft.

Tell me which rides are among the best in the world? Tower of Terror, the Epcot Rides, etc. They almost always have a story or at the very least a message that they're trying to get across. They ironically use Kilimanjaro Safaris when the current message it's communicating is a strong respect and admiration for nature. It's subtly accomplishing its mission and supporting the themes of the park. (Though that blog looks a tad dated)

That's still storytelling.

Sadly we lost one of the classic narrative attractions of the 1960s that actually seems like one of the most ambitious Walt Disney rides, and notably bears significant resemblance to EPCOT Center attractions.

All we have from that is some Dinosaurs.

Let's just say WED was on the story driven trajectory well before Eisner. Hardly a myth.

The regression of Radiator Springs Racers is troubling and not indicative of a healthy appreciation for the art form.

It's soulless.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I hold out some hope for Pandora as an IP based attraction. I don't expect the rides to just be a retelling of the movie. I guess we'll know soon.
The pit Flight of Passage risks falling into is just being a means of showing off technology. How you go from being in a huge building to flying an animal will be a key element to avoiding this pit.

The problem with this article is that it conflates story with overly specific, linear narrative. The Haunted Mansion does have a story, its just none of that junk about specific characters.
 

180º

Well-Known Member
@lazyboy97o , I agree with you and I'll resubmit this, since it's relevant to this discussion.

I talk about what I find wrong with Cars Land, too.
Very well said. I was going to write a post trying to say something similar to this.

I feel like the meaning of theme has been completely lost in theme park discussion. In literary terms theme is the broadest, unifying idea that informs the entire piece, usually based on basic human truths. For whatever reason, when we discuss theme parks, we say that the "theme" of Tower of Terror is a dilapidated early 20th century Hollywood hotel, or that the theme of Cars Land is the movie Cars, particularly, the desert environment of Radiator Springs. In literature and film, this sort of thinking is completely wrong. The theme of Les Miserables isn't post-revolutionary France. That's the setting. The themes of Les Miserables are tragedy, forgiveness, righteousness, etc.

Disneyland has a proper theme. Take a look at paragraph 3 of Disneyland's very first mission statement
View attachment 177620

Ideals, dreams, the hard facts that have created America, and courage.

I could even imagine how each land corresponds: Idealistic Tomorrowland, the dreams of Fantasyland, hard facts that have created America in Frontierland, and courage in Adventureland. Of course, it's all debatable. But it doesn't take much to see that Disneyland unites its different lands – not by setting – but by theme.

EPCOT is the same. There is a contrast between Future World and World Showcase. They feel very different, have very different settings, and say slightly different things. But together, they are united by EPCOT's theme (1st paragraph):

View attachment 177621

Fine, you say, but it's not the theme that really dazzles people, it's the setting.
Okay, but I think the theme is what makes Disneyland (or EPCOT) such a persistent cultural icon. Without it, how can it emotionally connect with someone?

Most theme parks do have a theme, even if it's loose. Animal Kingdom has a strong theme of conservation and respect for the unknown, but relies heavily on a seamless setting. That's okay, because the theme is still so strong. Something like Cars Land, however, is a seamless setting, but thematically, what is it trying to say? Perhaps it will try to reiterate themes from the film, like friendship and humility. But then it would just be a copy of the film, with no distinct purpose on its own. Now, I love Cars Land and the Wizarding World of Harry Potter as much as anyone else. But are they really themed? I argue, no, they are not purposely themed. They are translations of settings. That's alright, and guests will still enjoy it, but compare it to Disneyland or EPCOT which stand as bold, philosophical statements as an entire package, with everything in them pointing to the theme.

What makes art art? The level of realism? No, the thought behind it.

So when people throw at me early Disneyland's chain link fences, concrete switchback queues, Bavarian castle at the end of midwestern street, and dirt mounds, I understand how as a rendering it might seem less than realistic. But they are not holes in the theme. From the very beginning, Disneyland was thematically locked in. That's why it instantly enchanted the world.
 

RandySavage

Well-Known Member
@lazyboy97o , I agree with you and I'll resubmit this, since it's relevant to this discussion.

I talk about what I find wrong with Cars Land, too.

^Nice post there. I'd add that the quality of the rendering is what bestows truth or believabilty to the story or theme. It is a(n equally) critical component in the overall impact. I.e., There is the potential to have a poorly-rendered park/land/attraction with strong, sophisticated themes be a lesser creation than a gorgeously-rendered park/land/attraction with shallow, superficial themes.
 
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RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
My point is that Universal does its thing very well and Disney can still do their thing very well as proven by the recent Mystic Manor.

There are different expectations for each of them. One keeps to them, the other has drifted.
The problem is Disney is shifting more towards Universal's model.

Universal's two parks are slowly but surely merging into a single concept: "Riding the movies".

In 2005/2006 when Iger took over there were four distinct parks in Walt Disney World, yet the minimal updates he has made to the existing parks have slowly merged them all into having less of a focus on those individual identities. This is a problem, and what's worse is that current leadership doesn't recognize it as one. They are very much driven by "safe" intellectual property driven decisions to "improve" the parks.
 

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