A Terror-rific Spirited 13th (ToT fans have lots to fear)...

[EPCOTCenterLover]

While people like the use the word medieval to describe Sleeping Beauty Castle and Cinderella Castle, as you note, they are not. The Victorian era was one of architectural plurality. Victorian is not one singular style, but a collection of styles that were in use during the reign of Queen Victoria. Certain styles and materials came to be seen as more fitting for different programatic uses. The [image of] stone construction and revival architecture in the Castles follows this same pattern; with the grand civic structure being more oranate in and using materials intended to demonstrate the strength, wealth and stability of the town.

A clear explanation for the massive castle at Shanghai.

 

[spacemt354]

I think the issue is that we have two extremes on the wdwmagic forums. One that doesn't care about theming at all (I'm using this categorization lightly because everyone here must enjoy Disney theming on some level) and those who believe that everything at the park should be exactly what they want it to be. They want no movie IPs in the parks, they hate gift shops, and they believe that everything was better before. The problem isn't the new IPs, it's the execution. All the post ride gift shops should have merchandise related to the ride, not generic park merchandise! Anyways, this is not directed at you, I've seemed to go off on a random rant.......

I agree with you here.

God forbid attractions, shops, and dining locations have a theme in a theme park. And please stop this "well Walt Disney would want this or Walt Disney thought this way" because you did NOT know him personally and have no right to speak for him. You, and every person like you, are the reason Disney parks are they way they are, nonchalance about the intricate details that once made Disney the epitome of themed entertainment.

I don't disagree with the large message here - but at the same time I wouldn't call them nonchalant with intricate details. What I would say is their efforts are a bit misguided as of late, either for cost cutting reasons among others. There was intricate detail that went into creating the Tangled Bathrooms. But to me, that's misguided effort, because I'd swap that out with an intricate dark ride instead, and take a mildly themed bathroom.

The way I interpreted the former member's assertion wasn't that you shouldn't care about detail, because detail is essential in Disney or any other themed entertainment venue. The comment was in reference to the castle/Main Street connection debate. And in regards to that, we can agree to disagree. and that's fine, but to me its a stretch of thematic relevance and is only acceptable due to the nostalgia of growing up with a castle at the end of Main Street.

 

[BrerJon]

A bunch of cool Epcot shirts at this link. I like the "Brave The Beverly" shirt.

https://www.redbubble.com/shop/Epcot

Some of those are excellent. I think I'll get the one with all the pavilion logos together, and a Horizons "I can still smell the oranges".

 

[VJ]

Usually I read every post in this thread beginning to end.

I've done so much skimming these past couple days it's insane.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

God forbid attractions, shops, and dining locations have a theme in a theme park. And please stop this "well Walt Disney would want this or Walt Disney thought this way" because you did NOT know him personally and have no right to speak for him. You, and every person like you, are the reason Disney parks are they way they are, nonchalance about the intricate details that once made Disney the epitome of themed entertainment.

I'm not talking about "theme", but rather the obsession with narrative story. For me what is fascinating about Disneyland is how it all makes sense cognitively when, logically, it probably shouldn't. For example, Adventureland is a pastiche of architecture from places that people in America (and probably the entire Western world) would consider "exotic." What seems odd to me is how contemporary Disney fans seem to need to impose a cohesive storyline that would involve guests journeying from Polynesia to Africa, etc. in a way that almost no guest would intuit. It is the intuitive nature of the choice and execution of themes that really encapsulates the original genius of Disneyland for me. It tapped into something that is in the collective psyche.

I'm not trying to channel Walt nor do I think every park should follow the exact same model. Personally, though, I think this obsession with rational, lineal storylines misses the point of what made Disneyland so successful as a theme park. A narrative approach to storytelling can be used really effectively in attractions such as Splash or ToT, but others such as Haunted Mansion or Pirates work just as well by evoking a general theme or idea.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Sleeping Beauty Castle is not an important civic structure or governmental structure built for the Main Street storyline. Rather, its reveal is intended to further the narrative of the park as a whole.

The castle is intentionally hidden from the outside of the park, to represent a sort of "curtain reveal" when you finally turn the corner to look down the extension of Main Street. But note that when you enter Main Street, USA, the Castle is still not in view because you enter the town from the sides of the Main Street Station - building up anticipation to this reveal. This makes the Town Square the organizational foundation that then is expanded upon over time, following the land's story.

Horizontally, there is no forced perspective, nor should there be since you're in a turn of the century Main Street. The only forced perspective is vertical - not only on the upper windows of the Main Street facades, but importantly, the one-point perspective on the Castle in the distance. The distance is key. It represents you entering a whole new world, and the fantastical elements to follow. The forced perspective makes it seem further away to get the guests to continue to walk towards it - to further the narrative of the park. Whereas, in reverse, the Main Street Station, which uses no forced perspective, gives the illusion to guests that it is closer to them, so they think the exit is closer, but that's a whole other story.

I said nothing about Sleeping Beauty Castle being an important civic structure in the narrative of Main Street, USA. The entire entry sequence leading up to the reveal of Sleeping Beauty Castle makes it the climax of that whole experience. Town Square is a square, that is its organization. The rest of the land is a street, not a square. It is even named Main Street, USA and not Town Square, USA. The focus of the narrative experience you keep trying to tie this into is along the street itself, not in Town Square, and that narrative progresses as one moves towards the Central Plaza, not the Town Square.

The whole castle further and station closer thing being true would be horizontal forced perspective.

Glad someone finally mentioned this.

Medieval castles looked nothing like the fancy-looking castles that popped up in the later centuries, like Neuschwanstein. Medieval castles were mainly built for protection, not to show off.

I have a B.A. in English, and one of my professors was a Medievalist. It was fascinating to learn about medieval castles and their typical features. Blew my mind.

That sounds like it was fun. If anything, our conception of the romantic fairy tale castle draws much more from churches, and it was the increasing "fanciness" and political stability that transformed the Romanesque into the Gothic. And despite our notion of the medieval era as chaotic and dangerous, to King Ludwig II and American Protestants it was an era to be romanticized; with Ludwig looking back to a more equal German unity and Bavarian strength, and American Protestants to a united [Western] Christendom.

Again, I think this is a real stretch. Victorian architecture as a style doesn't refer to everything that was built everywhere at the world during Queen Victoria's rein. King Ludwig II's castles and Bavarian architecture generally during the late 19th century I don't think resonate with what people remember as rural American small town architecture during the same period.

Victorian is not a single style but a grouping of styles that came to prominence during the reign of Queen Victoria. It is very much a global term. Queen Victoria reigned over a global empire. That you are using it to describe "rural American small town architecture" is evidence of its global nature. The Second Empire style (Main Street Station, Magic Kingdom) is named for the Second French Empire. The most important and influential architecture school of the era was the École des Beaux-Arts. Neuschwanstein is Romanesque Revival, a style that was very much seen throughout the United States, often in civic and institutional structures.

It makes sense because Walt said it made sense and it works because we can all buy into the fantasy of it. For some reason, WDI and Disney fans have become obsessed with everything from attractions to turkey leg stands and shopping malls needing to have an intricately detailed story and logic behind it in a way that I don't think was the case when Walt was around.

This has nothing to do with backstories. The original Imagineers were incredibly learned on a variety of subjects and of course skilled film makers. Just because they did not write our the reasoning does not discount looking for an understanding of why their work actually works. Main Street, USA worked in 1955 and "Walt said so" only means people are dumb sheep doing as they are told. If Walt had that sort of power over people then why did he not use it to get them to see Peter Pan or Alice in Wonderland or any of the other box office disappointments he released through the last decades of his life? Sleeping Beauty Castle works because it has a complimentary design

The Disney Castles are an amalgam of castles. Cinderella Castle is actually a Victorian Guilded Medieval Castle. Victorian Castles don't have the mighty apron wall capped by parapets and battlements. That is medieval castle stuff. Versailles and Buckingham Palace are Victorian Castles.

Parts of Buckingham Palace are Victorian, but large parts predate not only Queen Victoria's reign but even her birth. The Palace of Versailles is absolutely and in no way Victorian, being built centuries earlier.

 

[CDavid]

I think the issue is that we have two extremes on the wdwmagic forums. One that doesn't care about theming at all (I'm using this categorization lightly because everyone here must enjoy Disney theming on some level) and those who believe that everything at the park should be exactly what they want it to be. They want no movie IPs in the parks, they hate gift shops, and they believe that everything was better before. The problem isn't the new IPs, it's the execution. All the post ride gift shops should have merchandise related to the ride, not generic park merchandise! Anyways, this is not directed at you, I've seemed to go off on a random rant.......

While I do not necessarily disagree with your larger point, you are still painting with much too broad a brush here. It doesn't matter what you or I or anyone else wants Walt Disney World to be, rather what is important is Disney continuing to uphold its own established standards; Innovating and growing but not resting on its laurels by taking the cheap, lazy, unimaginative (but lower risk) solution to every opportunity.

These standards are violated when IP's take the place of more authentically-based experiences or when generic merchandise invades and overwhelms a thematically specific establishment. It is not that either IP's or generic shops are hated or even looked down upon, but rather such an approach can tend to compromise the overall experience which we advocate should (must) be upheld.

 

[Phil12]

These standards are violated when IP's take the place of more authentically-based experiences or when generic merchandise invades and overwhelms a thematically specific establishment. It is not that either IP's or generic shops are hated or even looked down upon, but rather such an approach can tend to compromise the overall experience which we advocate should (must) be upheld.

Like the time honored practice of selling Mickey balloons and other such IP throughout all of the parks.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Like the time honored practice of selling Mickey balloons and other such IP throughout all of the parks.

-______-

 

[Brer Oswald]

We're on page 128! Are there any Nintendo fans in the chat that know the significance of that number?

 

[Brer Oswald]

While I do not necessarily disagree with your larger point, you are still painting with much too broad a brush here. It doesn't matter what you or I or anyone else wants Walt Disney World to be, rather what is important is Disney continuing to uphold its own established standards; Innovating and growing but not resting on its laurels by taking the cheap, lazy, unimaginative (but lower risk) solution to every opportunity.

These standards are violated when IP's take the place of more authentically-based experiences or when generic merchandise invades and overwhelms a thematically specific establishment. It is not that either IP's or generic shops are hated or even looked down upon, but rather such an approach can tend to compromise the overall experience which we advocate should (must) be upheld.

I agree, but it's only when these IPs aren't given the care they deserve. It's not the IP itself making the attraction bad, it's the laziness on Disney's part for not trying to make the attraction immersive.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

We're on page 128! Are there any Nintendo fans in the chat that know the significance of that number?

 

[No Name]

News Flash: We can talk about changing castles, but how about changing It's a Small Worlds?

Tokyo Disneyland has announced that they will add about 40 Disney characters to It's a Small World. I expect that Tokyo's change will be similar to Disneyland's in 2008, though Disneyland only added 29 characters (unless more have been added since). DL's version does not have Anna and Elsa... but do not fear! Tokyo's will.

They're also going to be adding in tunes from the characters' movies. Google translate tells me that "music reminiscent of the name scene of the movie will be incorporated into the song of 'small world'." I expect this part to be like DL's too.

I only hope that this change is not brought to MK.

*edited for accuracy

 

[Mike S]

News Flash: We can talk about changing castles, but how about changing It's a Small Worlds?

Tokyo Disneyland has announced that they will add over 40 Disney characters to It's a Small World. I expect that this part of Tokyo's change will be similar to Disneyland's in 2008, though Disneyland only added 29 characters (unless more have been added since). DL's version does not have Anna and Elsa... but do not fear! Tokyo's will.

If the characters don't bother you, then hear this: They're also going to be altering bits and pieces of the song to include tunes from the characters' movies.

I only hope that this change, especially the song part, is not brought to MK.

I liked it in Disneyland but changing the song is my limit. It's a genuine classic.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

Main Street, USA worked in 1955 and "Walt said so" only means people are dumb sheep doing as they are told. If Walt had that sort of power over people then why did he not use it to get them to see Peter Pan or Alice in Wonderland or any of the other box office disappointments he released through the last decades of his life? Sleeping Beauty Castle works because it has a complimentary design.

Walt understanding his audience doesn't mean they're "dumb sheep" at all. He also wasn't always right, nor did he always put artistic purity above profits. In fact, he often didn't. At any rate, I don't think Sleeping Beauty Castle is supposed to evoke a civic monument in a turn-of-the-century American town. I think it is supposed to look fantastical and to draw us toward it as a symbol of the fun and fantasy that awaits in the different lands of the park.

 

[GiveMeTheMusic]

News Flash: We can talk about changing castles, but how about changing It's a Small Worlds?

Tokyo Disneyland has announced that they will add over 40 Disney characters to It's a Small World. I expect that this part of Tokyo's change will be similar to Disneyland's in 2008, though Disneyland only added 29 characters (unless more have been added since). DL's version does not have Anna and Elsa... but do not fear! Tokyo's will.

If the characters don't bother you, then hear this: They're also going to be altering bits and pieces of the song to include tunes from the characters' movies.

I only hope that this change, especially the song part, is not brought to MK.

They added character music in DL too - it plays over the existing soundtrack and it's complete garbage.

 

[Mike S]

They added character music in DL too - it plays over the existing soundtrack and it's complete garbage.

I don't remember that... Was it a recent change?

 

[Disneysea05]

No, the music has been there since the characters were added. It kind of blends into the small world music, but once your ear picks up on it, it's all you hear. A lot of people probably don't even notice.

 

[No Name]

They added character music in DL too - it plays over the existing soundtrack and it's complete garbage.

Oh...didn't know that, just watched a video. While it's not as bad as I had imagined, it's still totally unneccesary and dilutes the ride.

 

[mickEblu]

Oh...didn't know that, just watched a video. While it's not as bad as I had imagined, it's still totally unneccesary and dilutes the ride.

I agree... The characters don't bother me but the music is slightly annoying