A Terror-rific Spirited 13th (ToT fans have lots to fear)...

[spacemt354]

Traditional Main Streets are often organized around an important civic structure. In older, eastern towns this was often a church. As the US expanded westward the church was replaced by a government structure such as a courthouse. Each a symbol of the town's values, first religious and later republicanism. At the Magic Kingdom, a place of romance and fantasy, this place of significance is filled with a similarly appropriate structure.

While people like the use the word medieval to describe Sleeping Beauty Castle and Cinderella Castle, as you note, they are not. The Victorian era was one of architectural plurality. Victorian is not one singular style, but a collection of styles that were in use during the reign of Queen Victoria. Certain styles and materials came to be seen as more fitting for different programatic uses. The [image of] stone construction and revival architecture in the Castles follows this same pattern; with the grand civic structure being more oranate in and using materials intended to demonstrate the strength, wealth and stability of the town.

The Main Street in Disneyland illustrates the transition through time as you walk through it - from the beginning at the turn of the century in the original Town Square, with gas lamps and horse drawn carriages. As you walk further down Main Street, you walk through decades and now movie theaters, electric lights, and cars permeate the vista, acting as an expansion and growth of the midwestern town.

The Town Square on Main Street that you walk onto contains the western government structures such as City Hall and the Chamber of Commerce. Main Street, USA itself is not organized around the Castle in the far distance, and the Castle isn't a governmental structure in the overall narrative. It's organized around the original Town Square and then branches off of that. The Castle is a story piece of, like you said, the themes of romance and fantasy in the Magic Kingdom.

The forced perspective and distance between Main Street, USA and the castle guides the story of the park as a whole and you're able to suspend disbelief that a fantastical Bavarian castle is in the same distant sight-line as a small midwestern American town. Entering Main Street, USA and looking down the street is the appetizer to the land of yesterday, tomorrow, and fantasy.

 

[MisterPenguin]

If your going to do a boring aquarium tour, why not make it 20k themed? It'll be an aquarium with a theme! But your idea about multiple underwater scenes is intriguing. They should just leave turtle talk, but rip out the boring Nemo ride. Any replacement is a good one at this point! Also, why are we bringing Moana into everything these days? I heard it was good, and I'm sure it is, but there must be better ways to use the IP. I really liked the Adventureland idea!

Why not 20k? Because it's clear that Disney won't move forward with updates or new attractions without an active Disney IP attached. Unless there is a 20k remake in the works, then, for Disney, a 20k attraction is a non-starter.

That's why I suggested Moana. It's more than good, it's excellent. And the pavilion is called The Living Seas, and in Moana, one of the characters is literally The Living Ocean.

 

[spacemt354]

I'm sorry, but when has any of the pavilions had any relation to each other. That was the entire point of Future World. They weren't tied to one theme but tied to the idea of human discovery and the progress of technology. Your idea, which is a good one at that, is just as guilty of this, but still fits the overall idea.

Future World is the "land" that all of the pavilions are in -- so on the surface and most abstract layer, there needs to be an overarching theme in order for the land to make sense. And like you said it's the "idea of human discovery and the progress of technology"

And with that said - Captain Nemo as a figure of human discovery would fit pretty well. Even though it's fiction, it'd be no different than the fictitious character of Figment being included in Future World to me.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The Main Street in Disneyland illustrates the transition through time as you walk through it - from the beginning at the turn of the century in the original Town Square, with gas lamps and horse drawn carriages. As you walk further down Main Street, you walk through decades and now movie theaters, electric lights, and cars permeate the vista, acting as an expansion and growth of the midwestern town.

The Town Square on Main Street that you walk onto contains the western government structures such as City Hall and the Chamber of Commerce. Main Street, USA itself is not organized around the Castle in the far distance, and the Castle isn't a governmental structure in the overall narrative. It's organized around the original Town Square and then branches off of that. The Castle is a story piece of, like you said, the themes of romance and fantasy in the Magic Kingdom.

The forced perspective and distance between Main Street, USA and the castle guides the story of the park as a whole and you're able to suspend disbelief that a fantastical Bavarian castle is in the same distant sight-line as a small midwestern American town. Entering Main Street, USA and looking down the street is the appetizer to the land of yesterday, tomorrow, and fantasy.

I did not call the Castle a governmental structure, I said it takes the place of an important civic structure, which was often a governmental structure in Midwestern and western towns. Organization around a structure does only mean being literally around something. Main Street, USA has a linear organization and that axis and view are intentionally lined up with the Castle. The Castle and Central Plaza are the primary node, Town Square is secondary and organized around the train station (also a common focal point of Midwestern and western towns).

There is no forced perspective horizontally along Main Street, USA.

Sleeping Beauty Castle is not Bavarian. Neuschwanstein is vernacular, it is a romantic revival built as a fairy tale castle. It's architectural style, Romanesque Revival, is exactly the sort of style appropriate for an important civic structure in a Victorian town.

 

[MisterPenguin]

The same way Germany is not part of the USA. That distance allows for not only a transition to occur, but also distinctly separates the two regions and their various architectural compliments.

Well, actually, that space in between, as well as all the other spaces in between, are designated as sites of possible future national pavilions. If filled in with other countries, the transition from country to country would be very abrupt. But, since it's portrayed as pavilions on display and not separate "lands", I don't think anyone's going to grouse about it except for the the-Dolphin-is-in-the-view! haters.

The distance between the end of MSUSA to the front of the castle is equal to, if not longer than the entire length of MSUSA itself.

Good! We have enough room to build a giant berm!!

 

[lazyboy97o]

If that's the theme, how would something like Captain Nemo not fit into human discovery?

For one, Captain Nemo is a terrorist. Secondly, and this is the big flaw with almost every "this one would work" is that the message of discovery and progress is tangential.

 

[Brer Oswald]

You just contradicted yourself. You say there was no theme and then proceeded to spell out a theme. "The idea of human discovery and the progress of technology" would be the relationship and one common theme.

Ok, you have a fair point. But in that case 20k Leagues fits the bill. This is coming from someone who has both read the book and seen the Disney movie.

 

[Brer Oswald]

Why not 20k? Because it's clear that Disney won't move forward with updates or new attractions without an active Disney IP attached. Unless there is a 20k remake in the works, then, for Disney, a 20k attraction is a non-starter.

That's why I suggested Moana. It's more than good, it's excellent. And the pavilion is called The Living Seas, and in Moana, one of the characters is literally The Living Ocean.

I'm pretty sure the 20k League reboot is coming out next year, maybe the year after?

 

[spacemt354]

I did not call the Castle a governmental structure, I said it takes the place of an important civic structure, which was often a governmental structure in Midwestern and western towns. Organization around a structure does only mean being literally around something. Main Street, USA has a linear organization and that axis and view are intentionally lined up with the Castle. The Castle and Central Plaza are the primary node, Town Square is secondary and organized around the train station (also a common focal point of Midwestern and western towns).

There is no forced perspective horizontally along Main Street, USA.

Sleeping Beauty Castle is not Bavarian. Neuschwanstein is vernacular, it is a romantic revival built as a fairy tale castle. It's architectural style, Romanesque Revival, is exactly the sort of style appropriate for an important civic structure in a Victorian town.

Sleeping Beauty Castle is not an important civic structure or governmental structure built for the Main Street storyline. Rather, its reveal is intended to further the narrative of the park as a whole.

The castle is intentionally hidden from the outside of the park, to represent a sort of "curtain reveal" when you finally turn the corner to look down the extension of Main Street. But note that when you enter Main Street, USA, the Castle is still not in view because you enter the town from the sides of the Main Street Station - building up anticipation to this reveal. This makes the Town Square the organizational foundation that then is expanded upon over time, following the land's story.

Horizontally, there is no forced perspective, nor should there be since you're in a turn of the century Main Street. The only forced perspective is vertical - not only on the upper windows of the Main Street facades, but importantly, the one-point perspective on the Castle in the distance. The distance is key. It represents you entering a whole new world, and the fantastical elements to follow. The forced perspective makes it seem further away to get the guests to continue to walk towards it - to further the narrative of the park. Whereas, in reverse, the Main Street Station, which uses no forced perspective, gives the illusion to guests that it is closer to them, so they think the exit is closer, but that's a whole other story.

 

[brb1006]

So can we discuss about the CM preview of Rivers Of Light this weekend?

 

[MisterPenguin]

I'm pretty sure the 20k League reboot is coming out next year, maybe the year after?

A 20K from Fox with Bryan Singer is slated for 2017.

Disney's "Captain Nemo" was dropped by Finch and picked up by Mangold who is in post-production for Logan and who has recently announced "Seducing Ingrid Bergman." There's been no announcement or pre-production for "Captain Nemo". It is still in "development", which it has been in for years. If it does see the light of day, it's supposed to be an origin story for Capt. Nemo and not a remake of 20K. And if Fox's version is a big hit (I'm laughing as I type that), then it might squelch any Disney attempt for a while.

So, it's kinda bleak for a Disney 20K remake any time soon.

Besides, it seems like Disney doesn't commit to an IP in an attraction unless there's a sequel on the way (Avatar, Toy Story, Star Wars, Frozen, Wreck It Ralph, GotG). Whether it's because the IP is so successful that it warrants both a sequel and an attraction, or, they don't want to build an attraction unless there is synergy in an upcoming sequel. Either way, 20K is the bottom of the barrel for IPs.

 

[Brer Oswald]

A 20K from Fox with Bryan Singer is slated for 2017.

Disney's "Captain Nemo" was dropped by Finch and picked up by Mangold who is in post-production for Logan and who has recently announced "Seducing Ingrid Bergman." There's been no announcement or pre-production for "Captain Nemo". It is still in "development", which it has been in for years. If it does see the light of day, it's supposed to be an origin story for Capt. Nemo and not a remake of 20K. And if Fox's version is a big hit (I'm laughing as I type that), then it might squelch any Disney attempt for a while.

So, it's kinda bleak for a Disney 20K remake any time soon.

Besides, it seems like Disney doesn't commit to an IP in an attraction unless there's a sequel on the way (Avatar, Toy Story, Star Wars, Frozen, Wreck It Ralph, GotG). Whether it's because the IP is so successful that it warrants both a sequel and an attraction, or, they don't want to build an attraction unless there is synergy in an upcoming sequel. Either way, 20K is the bottom of the barrel for IPs.

That's actually good that Disney has delayed the Captain Nemo movie for awhile. We will be seeing The Seas in its current state for quite some time, whether we like it or not. By the time the film comes out, Iger will be gone and Disney might want to change the pavilion up!

 

[Californian Elitist]

While people like the use the word medieval to describe Sleeping Beauty Castle and Cinderella Castle, as you note, they are not. The Victorian era was one of architectural plurality. Victorian is not one singular style, but a collection of styles that were in use during the reign of Queen Victoria. Certain styles and materials came to be seen as more fitting for different programatic uses. The [image of] stone construction and revival architecture in the Castles follows this same pattern; with the grand civic structure being more oranate in and using materials intended to demonstrate the strength, wealth and stability of the town.

Glad someone finally mentioned this.

Medieval castles looked nothing like the fancy-looking castles that popped up in the later centuries, like Neuschwanstein. Medieval castles were mainly built for protection, not to show off.

I have a B.A. in English, and one of my professors was a Medievalist. It was fascinating to learn about medieval castles and their typical features. Blew my mind.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Another English major, yay Wish I'd taken a Medieval lit class, maybe one will pop up before I finish my Master's.

Yay!

I agree with you. I actually only took one Medieval literature class, Chaucer. The class where I learned about Medieval castles was actually a British literature class, where we read and studied works starting from the 7th or 8th century, all the way through the 20th century.

Before taking any classes with my Medievalist professor, my friends encouraged and convinced me to take English Seminar with another professor, whose main focus was Russian literature, which I love. While I enjoyed the class, I regret not taking seminar with my Medievalist professor. Oh, well, as you said, hopefully opportunities will pop up in grad school.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

The distance between the end of MSUSA to the front of the castle is equal to, if not longer than the entire length of MSUSA itself. The same way Germany is not part of the USA.

That's quite inventive logic.

While people like the use the word medieval to describe Sleeping Beauty Castle and Cinderella Castle, as you note, they are not. The Victorian era was one of architectural plurality. Victorian is not one singular style, but a collection of styles that were in use during the reign of Queen Victoria. Certain styles and materials came to be seen as more fitting for different programatic uses. The [image of] stone construction and revival architecture in the Castles follows this same pattern; with the grand civic structure being more oranate in and using materials intended to demonstrate the strength, wealth and stability of the town.

Again, I think this is a real stretch. Victorian architecture as a style doesn't refer to everything that was built everywhere at the world during Queen Victoria's rein. King Ludwig II's castles and Bavarian architecture generally during the late 19th century I don't think resonate with what people remember as rural American small town architecture during the same period.

It makes sense because Walt said it made sense and it works because we can all buy into the fantasy of it. For some reason, WDI and Disney fans have become obsessed with everything from attractions to turkey leg stands and shopping malls needing to have an intricately detailed story and logic behind it in a way that I don't think was the case when Walt was around.

 

[MisterPenguin]

The park castles might rightly be called 'palaces' since they are, as has been said above, romanticized versions of real castles. Real castles are built for protection from attacks. The park castles are missing any of the defenses of a real castle except for the ponds that are generously called 'moats.'

In the movies, the only real defense these palaces have are usually by being placed on an isolated mountain plateau, or, their defenses are removed for the parks.

http://www.exploring-castles.com/castle_designs.html

 

[Soarin' Over Pgh]

TBH I'm much more interested in Volcano Bay than I am about a castle on viagra.

But that's just me. I guess.

As much as I want to be interested in the goings on at the international Disney parks, I think I'm burned enough by my recent experience at WDW to simply not care what is new or being built overseas. Or for that matter, domestically. They announce something and there's a solid four-eight year wait for it to become reality. The waiting game is becoming a joke. It's not building anticipation; it's watching their competitors breeze past them and suck up their customers.

They've lost me. Sorry if this is bitter sounding, I'm rather feeling it right about now. That's all for another post. But I think I finally understand how Spirit feels towards the Disney Co.

 

[Phil12]

Neuschwanstein was built and completed near the "turn of the century" The same turn of the century of which MSUSA is described. The castle is not exactly a part of Main Street. Its not even at "the end" of MSUSA. The distance between the end of MSUSA to the front of the castle is equal to, if not longer than the entire length of MSUSA itself. The same way Germany is not part of the USA. That distance allows for not only a transition to occur, but also distinctly separates the two regions and their various architectural compliments.

The castle is an unexpected "weenie" and nothing else. It is totally and completely out of place. There is no "transition". It is glaringly out of place. Spaceship Earth is the same. It attracts your attention from a great distance. It's odd and totally out of place. Nor do either serve to separate one area from another. They are focal points for snapshots. It's part of the crazy eccentricity that defined Walt Disney.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

The Disney Castles are an amalgam of castles. Cinderella Castle is actually a Victorian Guilded Medieval Castle. Victorian Castles don't have the mighty apron wall capped by parapets and battlements. That is medieval castle stuff. Versailles and Buckingham Palace are Victorian Castles.

 

[Brer Oswald]

God forbid attractions, shops, and dining locations have a theme in a theme park. And please stop this "well Walt Disney would want this or Walt Disney thought this way" because you did NOT know him personally and have no right to speak for him. You, and every person like you, are the reason Disney parks are they way they are, nonchalance about the intricate details that once made Disney the epitome of themed entertainment.

I think the issue is that we have two extremes on the wdwmagic forums. One that doesn't care about theming at all (I'm using this categorization lightly because everyone here must enjoy Disney theming on some level) and those who believe that everything at the park should be exactly what they want it to be. They want no movie IPs in the parks, they hate gift shops, and they believe that everything was better before. The problem isn't the new IPs, it's the execution. All the post ride gift shops should have merchandise related to the ride, not generic park merchandise! Anyways, this is not directed at you, I've seemed to go off on a random rant.......