A Spirited Perfect Ten

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
“Tom, don't let anybody kid you. It's all personal, every bit of business. Every piece of (....) every man has to eat every day of his life is personal. They call it business. OK. But it's personal as hell. You know where I learned that from? The Don. My old man. The Godfather. If a bolt of lightning hit a friend of his the old man would take it personal."

Since we're gonna quote The Godfather and all....



True. We're not discussing curing cancer or any disease or fixing social ills. Instead we're discussing the world's largest media conglomerate.
I probably should have found a different quote, but, still, in some respects it applies. It is personal to those that are making the decisions, but, our, the rest of us, personal feelings do not necessarily enter into it. When they killed a person it "was nothing personal" to them. To the person that they killed it was very personal, however, the person that was wiped out, had no say in the end result. Or in the long run, they could kill off Mickey, and there is nothing we could do about it other then no longer go there. If enough people did that, Mickey would miraculously be reincarnated with an excuse like he had a nervous breakdown or had to go to rehab to get past his addiction to cheddar.

And yes, it is a large conglomerate, but, that only means that it is even more unemotional in it's decision making and certainly it's operating procedures and policies (at a higher level). My feeling is that the only information that gets out is planted information, told to people to give them something to do and to, in the long run, shape opinion, but, it still isn't necessarily fact. Also, perhaps to know who they can and cannot trust with information that they don't want out. Do you notice that almost none of the information that we hear is backed by any documentation or, for the most part, action? It's important only in the direct connection to the Disney Company itself, it has no earth shaking end result existing or not existing.
 

wogwog

Well-Known Member
WDW is not as good as it was 10 years ago and much more expensive. If they made the parks absolutely incredible and charged more, that would be one thing. But the parks are slipping in quality and are full of closed attractions, long lines and mediocre overpriced food.

So they're asking us to pay more and get less.
Where do you find that "mediocre" food you speak of? My last food at WDW would need to greatly improve to meet that standard. Admittedly that meal was a long time ago so maybe it was not as bad as I remember. ;)
 

Funmeister

Well-Known Member
Where do you find that "mediocre" food you speak of? My last food at WDW would need to greatly improve to meet that standard. Admittedly that meal was a long time ago so maybe it was not as bad as I remember. ;)

Climbing prices for the same food makes the food mediocre by default.

It's not as delicious when I have to pay more for it and can actually get better quality at a non-branded Disney restaurant. It is not always the case that the actual quality (even though in many and most cases it is) goes down, but for the price you are paying why eat a Denny's steak when you can have Shula's?
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Climbing prices for the same food makes the food mediocre by default.

It's not as delicious when I have to pay more for it and can actually get better quality at a non-branded Disney restaurant. It is not always the case that the actual quality (even though in many and most cases it is) goes down, but for the price you are paying why eat a Denny's steak when you can have Shula's?

Exactly - Disney is charging Shula's prices for Denny's quality, Why not simply eat at Shula's in the first place the football menu is a bit unwieldy though...
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
The pricing may be insane but if the ticket prices were lower the crowds would be worse than they are. So many people post here about problems with over crowded parks. How large would the crowds be if the ticket prices were $50.00 a day and not starting at $100.00? Disney, no matter what some people think, has always been a place for the upper middle class and not the middle class. My parents could not afford to take my sisters, brother and I and we lived in a well off town at the Jersey Shore. My parents worked hard and did everything they could for us when we grew up but going to Disney was out of their range and only a few of my friends went to Disney World. Today millions of middle class parents take their kids on their once in a lifetime trip and many others are lucky and because of DVC and other timeshares get to go annually. What is the problem with the way it is today? Too many people in the parks and long lines? One last thing, I only had one friend who went to both WDW and Disneyland. He was an only child and his father was a United Airlines Pilot, so they could fly for free.
As @ParentsOf4 has outlined with his charts, the price of Disney tickets used to be much more affordable to guests relative to the median household income. Here's one of his charts regarding how ticket prices used to follow the median household income-
wdw-tickets-jpg.78977


For almost 15 years after WDW's opening, the ticket prices remained almost entirely in sync with the median household income, it actually even dipped below it in the early 80's. For over 10 years of its existance, WDW only had one park- Magic Kingdom. Epcot's opening was 1982, an incredibly popular addition that brought in tons of new customers. But it was intelligently built with not only high quality rides, but also very efficient and high capacity rides to support the crowds (and plenty of them). A smart way to expand WDW. There was a moderate raise to ticket prices above the MHI when Eisner was brought on board in 1984. But the price hikes began to level off by '89 when MGM Studios was built, the increases there onward were at a generally linear rate relative to the increases to the MHI. Even with those price hikes, the ticket prices remained affordable to many people and still generally considered a good deal. At one point prior to Eisner, the tickets were actually considered a stupid good deal by people. But even with the price hikes, WDW was still considered a fantastic value. Multiple additional parks and numerous quality expansions to existing parks made it worth it in people's minds throughout the 80's and even a good chunk of the 90's. I'd say this aggressive expansion only started to stagnate in 1998. They started stumbling a bit in quality starting in '94-'95 with poor decisions in EPCOT (and the beginning of maintenance cuts across property), but the building boom around the rest of WDW continued until Animal Kingdom opened in '98.

It was an entirely affordable vacation destination for an immensely larger quantity of people and families than it has been since 2000. As you can see from the chart above, another price hike noticeably above the increase of the MHI began in 2001. There was a drop around 2004-2005, but immediately after it skyrocketed again to where it's entirely out of range of the MHI, with still no signs of slowing down. But in the meantime, there has been little to nothing in the past 15+ years to justify such a staggering increase, more quality in fact has been subtracted than added. Much of the "expansion" has merely been the repurposing of existing land and/or reclaiming long lost capacity from decades-old ride closures. Everest is one of the few true NEW expansions (not using land occupied by existing rides) of arguably good quality, and it's almost a decade old now (with again its main star having been out of action for the majority of its life).

Even if you make the baseless assumption that Disney executives are actually worried about park capacity (the Frozenstrom ride clearly shows that they don't give a crap about capacity/crowds and are all about profit with the least amount of money/effort/thought), there are infinitely better ways to compensate for growing crowds than raising prices, ones that will ensure better growth of your business. You expand parks to add capacity. If done right (not like New Fantasyland) with high capacity and high quality rides, more than compensates for the growing crowd levels. New rides and expansions within current parks (Epcot in particular has a lot to reclaim that was lost). And far down the line if prudent, extra parks after the existing ones have been properly built out.

The parks are perfectly capable of sustaining both the current growing crowd levels and further heavy increases, all four parks (even Magic Kingdom) still have tons of room to grow. Or to improve attractions considered poor quality and are avoided by the public. It simply requires smart decisions from executives running and approving financial funding for them, and talented creatives. There are for instance multiple examples of closed and/or extremely unpopular attractions at Epcot, numerous plans to fix them are made consistently yet turned down by executives. A lot of instances at EPCOT where they shut down or downgraded rides in a highly negative way that compromised their capacity.
 
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hopemax

Well-Known Member
I guess what I am saying is that a lot of Disney food is/would be considered crap compared to the standards of the quality of non-Disney food at the same price point. Kind of dealing with value a little.

Exactly. I went to Chipotle yesterday, and on the windows they were advertising that they were going GMO free. We also know Chipotle has other requirements of their suppliers. Recently, discovered Burger Fi during my extended stay in Central Florida, and they also proudly advertise their commitment to a higher quality burger and dining establishment. Walmart even committed itself to looking into the use of antibiotics and farm conditions for its suppliers. Consider the state of burgers and pizza in the real world, consider the state of burgers and pizza at WDW...but WDW is selling itself to the upper class?

"Go eat at Shulas" is not an acceptable solution, because if WDW as a whole, is positioning itself to be the playground for the wealthy, Shulas (or the other handful of better restaurants) is not equipped to handle that sort of demand. And I imagine even wealthy people want a good burger or pizza, but what WDW offers is not even close. It was barely acceptable when we thought the market was the Walmart crowd, since WDW is aiming much higher, its a ridiculous situation.
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
Exactly. I went to Chipotle yesterday, and on the windows they were advertising that they were going GMO free. We also know Chipotle has other requirements of their suppliers. Recently, discovered Burger Fi during my extended stay in Central Florida, and they also proudly advertise their commitment to a higher quality burger and dining establishment. Walmart even committed itself to looking into the use of antibiotics and farm conditions for its suppliers. Consider the state of burgers and pizza in the real world, consider the state of burgers and pizza at WDW...but WDW is selling itself to the upper class?

"Go eat at Shulas" is not an acceptable solution, because if WDW as a whole, is positioning itself to be the playground for the wealthy, Shulas (or the other handful of better restaurants) is not equipped to handle that sort of demand. And I imagine even wealthy people want a good burger or pizza, but what WDW offers is not even close. It was barely acceptable when we thought the market was the Walmart crowd, since WDW is aiming much higher, its a ridiculous situation.
A chaser of pixie dust covers up a lot of kitchen sins
 

Funmeister

Well-Known Member
Exactly. I went to Chipotle yesterday, and on the windows they were advertising that they were going GMO free. We also know Chipotle has other requirements of their suppliers. Recently, discovered Burger Fi during my extended stay in Central Florida, and they also proudly advertise their commitment to a higher quality burger and dining establishment. Walmart even committed itself to looking into the use of antibiotics and farm conditions for its suppliers. Consider the state of burgers and pizza in the real world, consider the state of burgers and pizza at WDW...but WDW is selling itself to the upper class?

"Go eat at Shulas" is not an acceptable solution, because if WDW as a whole, is positioning itself to be the playground for the wealthy, Shulas (or the other handful of better restaurants) is not equipped to handle that sort of demand. And I imagine even wealthy people want a good burger or pizza, but what WDW offers is not even close. It was barely acceptable when we thought the market was the Walmart crowd, since WDW is aiming much higher, its a ridiculous situation.

I agree what you are saying about Shula's. I was using it more as a benchmark of quality than using it as a suggestion. lol
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
I agree with and understand where that article's coming from, but it is also kind of surprising to me how many folks apparently used to view WDW as a place that just about anyone could afford to go. I grew up solidly middle/upper middle class and when I was a kid in the 80s and 90s, no one I knew thought of it that way. Most of my friends' families could not afford to go or certainly could not afford to go multiple times. None of my friends who had more than one or two siblings got to go. It was considered by most kids I knew to be something you got to do once if you were lucky. We lived a two-day drive away from WDW so just getting there, by car or plane, was expensive for a family of four or more.

I distinctly recall many parents saying things about how Disney was outrageously expensive when I was a kid, my own parents included. It never had a reputation as an affordable vacation choice in our community. I was very fortunate that I eventually went many times when I was a kid, but my experience was not at all the norm.

I do agree that the pricing has gone to a new, insane place lately though. My eyes about popped out of my head last time I saw the rack rates on the resorts.
I concur. Even back in the late 1950's and early 1960's Disneyland was very expensive. But, there were numerous discounts available if you knew about them. The Magic Kingdom Club (MKC) was a program Disney created that was available to employees of large companies and the military back in 1957. They expanded the program over the years and extended it to state and federal government employees as well.

Back in those days we couldn't afford a lot of the attractions at Disneyland, but over the years they had several free attractions that did not require a ticket. Those attractions were sponsored by big companies such as Monsanto or General Electric (i.e. Hall of Chemistry, Adventure Thru Inner Space, House of the Future, Circarama, etc.) The MKC discounts and the free rides made Disneyland affordable for the average working person.

When WDW opened, it too was very expensive and staying on property was out of the question for us. Back then, of course, there was no Internet, so we had to learn about the various discount mechanisms through friends and family. We explored and learned about various ticket discounts and room discounts. Frankly, without significant discounts we realistically couldn't afford a trip to WDW. But once we learned the ropes, WDW vacations were very affordable.

When the DVC first opened, we looked into joining. But when we made direct comparisons between the expense of the DVC and the discounted room rates we routinely purchased, it was clear that the DVC was only a deal if you were accustomed to paying rack rates. Over the years we've reexamined the DVC and have found that discount room rates still work out best for us.

I was rather annoyed when Disney shut down the MKC in 2000. Fortunately by that time we had learned enough about how the various Disney discounts worked. We were able to continue to visit with bigger discounts than ever! In part that was due to information gained via the Internet.

But today or yesteryear if I had to pay rack rate for a room or purchase non-discounted admission media, I'd find another venue for my holidays rather than the Disney parks.
 
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hopemax

Well-Known Member
I agree what you are saying about Shula's. I was using it more as a benchmark of quality than using it as a suggestion. lol

There are some out there that might think WDW doesn't need to upgrade it's food service options, across the board, to serve a wealthier clientele because Shulas and a handful of other nice restaurants exist. So that's my point. :) That clientele is pickier, and used to real world options of a different sort, than what is usual for WDW.

Same thing for merchandise. The existence of a few nice options in World Showcase does not erase the volume of "made in China" products that line the shelves. I was so disappointed in some of the Co-op home goods merchandise, because the printing was so shoddy. This was at the Disney Store, but there was a cute Olaf shirt, and the flock material, whatever it is, wasn't even fully applied, so Olaf's belly and head weren't filled in, and so the pink stripes showed through. I wanted to buy my new nephew a onesie and the stitching was so bad, I knew there was no way my SIL would ever allow her kid to wear it.
 

CinematicFusion

Well-Known Member
Well that is a better review than NPR that said "I enjoyed Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull to exactly the same degree I enjoyed Jurassic World."

I'm holding out for Inside Out and Straight Outta Compton. Minions look cute.

"Love and Mercy" is the film of the Summer, IMO. Love those Beach Boys.....

Beach Boy film is great. Enjoyed that one quite a bit.

So far I have avengers, tomorrowland, mad max all rated the same. I enjoyed them all, they all did exactly what I thought they would do. Mad max action sequences might be some of the best I've ever seen.
I didn't think mad max was 98 percent great, nor did I think Tomorrowland was 40 percent bad.(rottentomatoe scores)
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Spirited Friday Musing:

I won't post the link because I was reading at lunch and see someone already did, but the Washington Post did a great story on The Walt Disney Company and pricing today.

By great I mean a story that Disney wasn't able to stop, influence or even 'balance' ... Nope, it was a fair look at Disney's current pricing structure, mentioned their 'likely' plans for surge pricing (a new and better way to screw customers) and touched on why Disney is acting like there's an unlimited supply of rubes with too much money. Love the 'Wall Street Dads' reference because that is so true. I recall my only stay at the Grand Flo when a Wall Street hedge fund manager was in the jacuzzi with us and his 8-9-year-old son talking about having limited time and not really caring about pricing, just about getting the experiences as many and as quickly as possible. Money was no object.

I won't go into the whole affordability deal. @ParentsOf4 has been so great over the last few years of putting up posts in the cold, hard numbers that illustrate Disney's 'business' model and why they do what they do.

I loved so much about that story. It's what journalism should be. Truth. Disney's only defense? A very weak PR statement that is the same thing they release after every increase. Just typical corporate BS. They have no answer beyond corporate profiteering, but how MAGICal does that sound?

Yes, Walt was a business man. Yes, he's been dead for more years than most of us, myself included, have been alive. But anyone who watched how DL was priced and later how WDW was priced from the Roy O. Disney opening days to the Card Walker and Ron Miller eras through the Michael Eisner and Frank Wells years will tell you something very different is at play here.

A $29 1971 room at the Poly should be $171 today. Want to give them a little extra? Make it $275 or $300. That isn't close to the reality.

What's at play is that nasty class warfare BS you hear, which is really a nice way of saying there are fewer people making living wages every day, let alone wages that allow for pricey WDW vacations (all at a resort where the quality has dropped so much in the last 20 years alone that it is barely recognizable as the same place). They are simply looking at the very top of the market. It's not the mass market product for everyone that it was from Walt's days right into the 1990s.

And even if you can go, the amount of VIP Tours/access, upcharge events, seasonal price increases and cuts that give everyone less for their money continues.

Much like their strategy with DVC and resort room rates, the model isn't sustainable in the long term. But is it sustainable for the foreseeable future? Barring major events like natural disasters, terrorism, wars etc it should be. And when it crashes no one currently employed as an exec in P&R will be there. Bob Iger and Tom Staggs will be long gone too.

Now, before someone (if they haven't already) jumps on me and says 'So Mr.Spirit, if this dude could write such a negative story about Disney, then why oh why can't someone do the same about the Shanghai Disney fiasco?'

Very simple.

Two very different subjects. One much easier to put out as while it touches on others in the themed entertainment business, it is 90% Disney (WDW really) based. It doesn't enter into the very tough subject of American corps doing business in China and how they are allowed to go about it.That's a much tougher piece to place.

I'm sure when the writer went to Disney, they thought the story was largely going to be focused on surge pricing, something they want out. Indeed, someone has already sent me a note saying as much. Disney was ''blindsided'' by the piece's honesty and boldness. They're just happy that the story broke on Friday.

Me ... I'm just happy that someone was able to write the story ... and that the Washington Post was willing to print it.

Y''all have great weekends.
 

Omnispace

Well-Known Member
The issues of park crowding remind me of much discussion by MiceAge about Disneyland's woes. There were basically two things that alleviated it. The first was the reduction of attractions that used Fastpass, especially for attractions that didn't really need it such as the Haunted Mansion. It put guests back into queues instead of wandering the walkways. The second reduction in crowding came at the end of DCA's makeover, and the opening of Cars Land. Suddenly there was something worthwhile to see in the other park, and an adequate number of attractions to satisfy day guests. WDW seems to be doing the opposite. FP+ is being added to attractions in order to round-out the pre-scheduling offerings. And, of course, the other three parks are being allowed to languish, or they have never been completed into full-day parks. Raising prices should not be considered to be a crowd controlling factor on it's own - especially when it has been shown that these other factors can have more of an impact.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member

Omnispace

Well-Known Member
Assuming it's not against the rules for whatever reason to post a link to Washington Post, this appears to be the article Spirit is referring to-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ke-disney-world-left-the-middle-class-behind/

I'm just starting to read it, but it's definitely a good one so far. I really like the price of milk comparison at the beginning, sure to be in for a good read.

To put the original admission cost into perspective it's important to remember that the majority of amusement parks at that time had open admission. When Disneyland opened, one would still have to go around and purchase tickets for each attraction, on top of the general admission price. It's partly why the skeptics said that no one in their right mind would pay a general admission and Disney would fail. In a way, one could consider that the price of admission would keep out the unruly types that frequented the amusement parks.

As for the coupon books, I read that they were introduced both to alleviate waiting in so many ticket lines within the park, and to help even out crowds among the attractions.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
By EPCOT's opening date, the per-attraction ticketing system was retired and just a general single day admission system was used. From what it seems, the price at this point (1982 apparently) for a single day ticket to one park was $15. If this site is accurate anyways, i'm not sure the precise date when the ticketing system was discarded-
http://allears.net/ae/issue299.htm

That was a bargain even back then, especially for unlimited use of any ride you like.
 

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