A Spirited Perfect Ten

[WDW1974]

Panda's unlike fanboi's tend to be cute to extremes I think that fact alone explains their appeal.

Pandas can be cute, but I've known some good-looking young fanbois (they just tend to be far and few). But I think California black bears are so much cuter. And I have seen them plenty in the wild. Of course, it isn't fun when you come upon one with her cub mere feet away and they both have no fear for humans as I did in Sequoia NP in 2008. ... But I have seen them playing in a meadow from a safe distance and it was one of the greatest things I have witnessed in a NP. Amazing creatures. I'd rather see them or virtually any other kind of bear (even some that are visiting O-Town this week) than pandas.

Much like Dole Whips, they are very much overrated.

 

[PhotoDave219]

NBA Experience is taking the place of DisneyQuest??

That is the speculation. Its moving into a larger place from NBA City and that is huge. Only place that would fit that type of square footage at DTD right now would be DQ.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Pandas can be cute, but I've known some good-looking young fanbois (they just tend to be far and few). But I think California black bears are so much cuter. And I have seen them plenty in the wild. Of course, it isn't fun when you come upon one with her cub mere feet away and they both have no fear for humans as I did in Sequoia NP in 2008. ... But I have seen them playing in a meadow from a safe distance and it was one of the greatest things I have witnessed in a NP. Amazing creatures. I'd rather see them or virtually any other kind of bear (even some that are visiting O-Town this week) than pandas.

Much like Dole Whips, they are very much overrated.

The bear, the bear and the maiden fair? All Black and brown and covered in hair?

 

[WDW1974]

I think the best comparison is another iconic American company, McDonalds 4 Years ago they could do no wrong, They were Wall St's darling, They then started making what was simple complex and also became enamored of 'cheap immigrant labor' for their front line positions at many shops, I cannot tell you how many times I've walked out of a store or driven away from a MickeyD's because the cashier was unable to understand my order. Now they are in deep kimchi with no obvious path to recovery.

The cause is of course the same Executives in a distant HQ making decisions while NEVER stepping in a store because that would be so declasse... Their meals are prepared by personal chef's with Michelin stars, In reality McDonalds Store #1 should BE the corporate dining experience and if the food and service keeps the HQ employees happy it will probably work in the field as well.

The problem with American business these days is the whole 'Nobles and Serfs' mentality which has arisen in the past 30 years or so, This has happened in large part because managers are go directly from college to a management position. Rather than in the old days one was promoted from within so the newly minted manager had some experience with the company and it's customers.

Sears, Woolworth, Polaroid, Pan Am, TWA, Howard Johnson's, Montgomery Ward, Texas Instruments, Blockbuster Video ... I could go on and on. Great, huge names/ BRAND in American business that simply either no longer exist or exist in tiny footprints ... again, Disney has an attitude that is very dangerous for a company that is on top financially (but largely failing creatively beyond buying other people's creative output).

Disney isn't innovating or changing with the times (beyond the Walmarting, which isn't the key to success). I don't see a day in my life where Disney doesn't exist as a BRAND. But could it be in pieces? Could it be greatly diminished? Absolutely. And could some of that stem from decisions made today? Decisions lauded by fanbois with no sense of perspective and Wall Street analysts that couldn't care less if the company was around in 20 years? Oh yeah. Damn right it could.

 

[WDW1974]

I know we have had this discussion countless times but the thing where the fanbois always forget is per guest spending and that is where UNI is kicking WDW butt. And they are doing it with actual guest spending not just jacking up food and merchandise prices every 6 months to a year. That is where WDW is really losing out to UNI.

Look at UNI's merchandise? They have great stuff. And it isn't just Potter. If you want Simpsons, or Transformers or Marvel or simple movie items or resort stuff. It's not the same in every store.

To be fair, DAK has some wonderful stuff as does World Showcase (about the only two places I buy stuff that isn't Property Control or an outlet store). But beyond that merchandise, which often is priced quite reasonably before an AP or CM discount, it's the same Disney crap whether you are at Pop Century, the Contemporary, the Emporium or basically anywhere else. Nothing is unique or location specific because heaven forbid that some 380-pounder has to walk to a shop in Fantasyland or the back of the Studios to buy it.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Look at UNI's merchandise? They have great stuff. And it isn't just Potter. If you want Simpsons, or Transformers or Marvel or simple movie items or resort stuff. It's not the same in every store.

To be fair, DAK has some wonderful stuff as does World Showcase (about the only two places I buy stuff that isn't Property Control or an outlet store). But beyond that merchandise, which often is priced quite reasonably before an AP or CM discount, it's the same Disney crap whether you are at Pop Century, the Contemporary, the Emporium or basically anywhere else. Nothing is unique or location specific because heaven forbid that some 380-pounder has to walk to a shop in Fantasyland or the back of the Studios to buy it.

Why isn't Universal Celebrating Universal25 Tomorrow? Why is only a local fan group celebrating it?

 

[WDW1974]

I am a UNI AP holder and when we eat we usually eat in table service restaurants there. The price isn't that much more than a QS place and is way more relaxing. Mythos and Confisco Grille may be one of the best deals in theme park dining anywhere and I have never had a bad meal at either one. And like you said you can always walk right out of the parks to a place in Citywalk which are all way better deals than in restaurant at WDW. That and there is still more new restaurants and improvements coming to Citywalk. And as far as the QS places UNI has continued to improve their food at most of those places.

I generally agree, although some UNI locations still have issues. Cowfish was good, but not all that special and the service flat out sucked, even though I liked our server. Antojitos is phenomenal for Mexican in Florida, though. I honestly don't think I've had better here in a very long time.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I generally agree, although some UNI locations still have issues. Cowfish was good, but not all that special and the service flat out sucked, even though I liked our server. Antojitos is phenomenal for Mexican in Florida, though. I honestly don't think I've had better here in a very long time.

You didnt think Cowfish was "The Greatest Thing Ever(tm)?!!?!?" LifestylerTwitter says thats even better than clean drinking water and antibiotics!


/Sarcasm. LOTS of Sarcasm.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Why isn't Universal Celebrating Universal25 Tomorrow? Why is only a local fan group celebrating it?

UNI does a lot of things right as of late, but they dropped the ball big time with the 25th Anniversary. A major milestone and what are they doing to celebrate? Where's the unique entertainment or merchandise?

This is something Disney does better. Just look at the 60th in California.

 

[WDW1974]

What? It's tied to the topic of capacity. The only way MK will fix its capacity problem and spread crowds isn't through artificial MM+, but organic expansion. And also, Epcot and DHS need to be reworked. AK needs to continue to grow.

If Philly cheese-steaks, hotel occupancy, Shanghai Disneyland, non-WDW attraction talk, revenue/attendance, the ethics of modern journalism and other topics are allowed, why not some blue-sky? I'm adding something constructive rather than just being 'WDW sucks. It has a lot of stuff that needs to be fixed.' I'm providing a solution to that problem.

This thread has no real focus, so as long as it's tied to WDW or the Orlando tourism market, I don't see what's wrong. Honestly, blue-sky Imagineering for WDW is more on-topic than rants about Iger or Shanghai Disneyland. Or anything Disney-related that isn't actually about WDW (the new Star Wars movies, DLP, Tokyo Disney, Disneyland's 60th, Disney Cruise Line, any Disney movie not featured in WDW currently, etc) . Those are explicitly tied to WDW or TDO.

I just don't see why you and PhotoDave and others really care if someone does some armchair Imagineering in a thread with no topic or real sense of purpose.

I sorta resent that. I started these threads after talking to MAGICal Steve to be a catch all for largely big picture industry stuff. That meant not a micro-focus on the show scenes and layout of SDMT or a 'what if Disney had built WRE?' but a focus on Disney and its competitors. The cheesesteak crap was started in another thread and was sorta a joke by others.

And while 'what if's are certainly welcome, getting deep into armchair stuff doesn't belong.

Iger, Shanghai, the Star Wars franchise, TDR, DL's 60th, DCL etc are all big picture subjects that tie into TWDC of 2015. And they absolutely are all deeply connected to WDW, some much more than others to be fair.

That's the topic and most certainly the sense of purpose.

 

[AEfx]

And could some of that stem from decisions made today? Decisions lauded by fanbois with no sense of perspective and Wall Street analysts that couldn't care less if the company was around in 20 years? Oh yeah. Damn right it could.

The Super-Lifestyler perspective is certainly a valuable one to add to the list. If the business world, Wall Street, the consumers buying the product, and everyone else seem to agree, then it always is good to get a different perspective even when it completely contradicts the data and experience the rest of the world is having.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I sorta resent that. I started these threads after talking to MAGICal Steve to be a catch all for largely big picture industry stuff. That meant not a micro-focus on the show scenes and layout of SDMT or a 'what if Disney had built WRE?' but a focus on Disney and its competitors. The cheesesteak crap was started in another thread and was sorta a joke by others.

And while 'what if's are certainly welcome, getting deep into armchair stuff doesn't belong.

Iger, Shanghai, the Star Wars franchise, TDR, DL's 60th, DCL etc are all big picture subjects that tie into TWDC of 2015. And they absolutely are all deeply connected to WDW, some much more than others to be fair.

That's the topic and most certainly the sense of purpose.

Yes, this thread is more of a business/corporate 'catch-all.'

And yes, the cheesesteak stuff was a joke. (Jim's Steaks, Fourth and South Streets, in the heart of the City Where Freedom & American Came From, Philadelphia).

 

[AEfx]

UNI does a lot of things right as of late, but they dropped the ball big time with the 25th Anniversary. A major milestone and what are they doing to celebrate? Where's the unique entertainment or merchandise?

I want to agree with you, I really do...because I do not think Universal is perfect. However...Universal treats every year like a milestone anniversary. They are building new permanent attractions constantly, what do they need with temporary unique entertainment? They don't need to massage the message with advertising campaigns and temporary merchandise, they are in their prime and don't need to use nostalgia to supplement what's going on (or the lack of things going on) in their parks.

 

[BrianLo]

Look at UNI's merchandise? They have great stuff. And it isn't just Potter. If you want Simpsons, or Transformers or Marvel or simple movie items or resort stuff. It's not the same in every store.

To be fair, DAK has some wonderful stuff as does World Showcase (about the only two places I buy stuff that isn't Property Control or an outlet store). But beyond that merchandise, which often is priced quite reasonably before an AP or CM discount, it's the same Disney crap whether you are at Pop Century, the Contemporary, the Emporium or basically anywhere else. Nothing is unique or location specific because heaven forbid that some 380-pounder has to walk to a shop in Fantasyland or the back of the Studios to buy it.

Disney is a little (though not enough) coast specific than Uni when it comes to some of the IP stuff.

Though that may be a product of how cut and paste they are doing Hogsmead on the West Coast. Really... a clone of a 15 year old over-laid coaster? I'm disappointed that the best differentiator right now is the attraction being in 3D, even that won't be exclusive for long, if at all.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I want to agree with you, I really do...because I do not think Universal is perfect. However...Universal treats every year like a milestone anniversary. They are building new permanent attractions constantly, what do they need with temporary unique entertainment? They don't need to massage the message with advertising campaigns and temporary merchandise, they are in their prime and don't need to use nostalgia to supplement what's going on (or the lack of things going on) in their parks.

Sorry, yes, June 7th is USF's 25th year anniversary.

 

[WDW1974]

Unfortunately, this isn't that uncommon anymore. My very large and well-known former employer did the same thing, only some of my coworkers had to actually travel to India to train their replacements. Others were brought to the U.S. I didn't have to train anyone, but my last job is now being performed by 2 people, one in Guatemala and one in India. It's horrible and I don't agree with it, but you can't just single out Disney, unfortunately.

Edit: I do realize that the situation with my employer was different in that the jobs were sent overseas. However, it is still wrong to force soon to be laid off employees to train their replacements.

No matter who does it, it is grotesque.

And, in this case, I think Disney should absolutely get picked on because they get all the accolades as a great company to work for and how much they care and lots of BS and more BS coated in Pixie Dust.

A company based in my town did it and everytime I see a bus stop full of Indian nationals waiting to go home to one of the numerous apartment complexes the company bought to house them, I'm just sickened.

It flat out should be illegal or the companies should have to pay some special tax that makes it so unpalatable to most that the process stops.

It's not because these companies can't fill the jobs. It's because why pay an American $100,000 a year when you can bring in someone from India and pay them $30,000 for the same job. It has got to stop. No matter who is doing it!

 

[AEfx]

Though that may be a product of how cut and paste they are doing Hogsmead on the West Coast. Really... a clone of a 15 year old over-laid coaster? I'm disappointed that the best differentiator right now is the attraction being in 3D, even that won't be exclusive for long, if at all.

But that only matters to super-fans like us who would come to a message board like this.

The majority of folks who enter WDW or UO will never experience the West Coast parks. The common perception is that Disneyland and MK are the same park that offer the same experiences. They expect to get the same attractions in each place, as odd as that sounds (and mostly isn't reflected in reality).

The notion of "park uniqueness" in parks 3000 miles away is really only a concern for us, it's the expectation and desire of the majority of the public.

 

[AEfx]

The bear, the bear and the maiden fair? All Black and brown and covered in hair?

I think I'm the only one who got that - but I sure did appreciate it.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I think I'm the only one who got that - but I sure did appreciate it.

I'm working on being more subtle on my references. I've worn on @The Mom 's sensibilities & goodwill to last until 2020

 

[WDW1974]

I've thought about this for a while, and have a few observations.
1) The traditional MK parks are the greatest achievement in theme park design ever. Walt Disney cracked something when he came up with his formula. The industry has worked for 60 years trying to achieve similar success to the Magic Kingdoms, and currently only one park has.

Design AND marketing MAGIC. And it became ingrained in the psyches of generations of Americans. For my childhood, you could only visit Disney in the USA ... and later on Tokyo (but no one went there for Disney back in the 80s). It was a special product and every park was run to the absolute highest levels possible and the pricing, even after the Eisner/Wells increases began, was fair. It wasn't out of reach of so many.

So, it is easy to see why the castle parks are always the most popular. BUT ...

2) The MK domination is not a phenomena isolated to Orlando. DCA, WDS (this may not count...), and WDW Parks all have around half the attendance of their sister Castle Park. Even Tokyo Disney Sea, the park that has come closest to matching its neighbor has millions of guests between it and its MK. DCA which just had 1 billion+ dumped into it has half the attendance of Disneyland.

MK didn't dominate over EPCOT Center in the 80s like it has been dominating over Epcot in the 21st century. No, they were never equal. But the disparity wasn't like it is now.

TDS pulls in amazing numbers and numbers that EPCOT should be able to do easily. DCA was a disaster from the start, so it will likely take a good 5-6 years of more good buzz to start really putting up numbers (the new Marvel area may help, although Potter on the west coast will be open years before and SW will be going into the original too! So, DCA may never get as close as is possible. And let's not even talk about Paris's situation right now.

3) It's not always been like this, and it doesn't have to be like this either. Looking at attendance from the 1980s suggests there was greater equilibrium between Epcot and Magic Kingdom. Even into the 1990s Epcot continued to be closer to MK. Then things went sour. Tokyo Disney Sea proves that parks can be within the same league as MKs given enough time and money.

Exactly.

4) The Walt Disney World Resort is not a maximized asset by any stretch. Not even close. They have the potential to capture millions of more guest days with proper build out, appropriate management, and marketing. Enhancing existing parks are an incredible business opportunity. Unlike riskier foreign ventures they know the turf, new guests will benefit the sister parks, and it will help DS and the hotels. Fixing the other parks seems to be the clearer and clearer option everyday. Currently they're losing hundreds of millions of dollars from their inaction/slow action.

That is my point. I don't care how many Guests MK is getting. It is hugely successful. But how many Guests, including Guests staying at your own hotels are skipping one, two or three of your other parks? Or not checking out the water parks? There's a reason Disney has been planning a new water park since before RC was left to rot in the swamps and, yet, there are no plans to actually go forward with one ... or expand capacity at the two that they have.

5) How many more people can MK hold at its current capacity? For the last several years they've relied on consistent natural growth. When does it just max out? Can MK continue to represent a growth opportunity?

Depends. Open the dead zones. The food locations and retail venues that have been shuttered or (look at Adventureland) moved out into walkways and courtyards like a flea market. Add live shows and entertainment, so people aren't always running from attraction to attraction. There's room for more.

Of course, there is also PLENTY of expansion room and, yes, this park needs another two people eating E-Tickets. No, not as much as the other parks just need something. But the need still is there to spread out the Guests. Another E-Ticket in Adventureland or Tomorrowland might pull some people from crowded walkways.