A Spirited Perfect Ten

[Bairstow]

Oh...... you're one of the "Disney is a business" crowd. Here and thought you were better than that.

Ok, I'll bite.
The Walt Disney Company isn't a business, it's a ________ ?

 

[Mike S]

I just didn't get around to it yet, but in a different context. For years we have heard about how Disney has failed to do what they intended...have a 2nd gate = 1st gate in attendance. Tokyo has pulled it off, but that's it. Universal has succeeded in doing it. That leaves Universal with much healthier parks, and a brighter future. WDW is in a bad situation because it leaves all 4 parks needing significant investment. MK to handle the crowds it gets, and the other three to try to improve their position. And it's not like anyone at WDW is going to look at the MK and say, "more attractions, better attractions, longer hours, more entertainment is what drives MK's success over the others,"...I think we're getting.."MK has characters, and character-based attractions so we need to put those everywhere."



Bingo. And each price increase at WDW furthers to drive people to the MK only. I don't think people want to give up going to WDW, but the economics force it. So people give up park hopping, and extra days (although the ticket price is not that much, the room rate/meals is the problem here) and are more frequently drawn to an MK only vacation. Especially among the day guests, and "not THAT into DIsney" crowd. MK is the beginning and the end of WDW.

Back to the Spirit



I am of the belief, that due to the changes in ticket structure and pricing, travel time, age of the children (younger kiddos that won't make it the full day needed, for successful park-hopping), that the amount of actual park hopping at WDW is overstated by fanbois and forum peeps. Therefore MK attendance is largely made up of "MK only" tickets. Either actual one day ticket's or 2 and 3 day tickets that are used only at the MK. I think of the people who do buy multi-day, park hoppers (probably mostly the UK contingent and their longer LOS) would chose MK and Epcot as their "place to hop to" is high but are such a small group, that they are statistically insignificant when compared to the much larger group of people who are visiting the MK, and the MK only.

At the other WDW parks, I think more people are visiting with longer multi-day tickets. There are less Epcot only (during non-Food & Wine times), AK only, or DHS only people, and with a lot less attendance, that anyone that does hop is statistically more important than at the MK. So people with park hoppers that start at DHS or AK, and then go to Epcot can tip the scale a little. I think the gap in attendance gives us a squinty eyed glance at the disparity of 1 or two day tickets (which get used at the MK) and longer multi-day tickets (more likely to have the time to visit the lesser parks).

This is different than at Universal, where I am likely to believe that due to the success of Harry Potter, and the easiness of the Hogwarts Express the primary ticket of choice is a "1 day park-to-park" ticket. Which means the de facto cost for a day at Universal is $147. You see this in the statements of the Universal execs when they talk about operating income being due to increased sales in "park to park" tickets and since that part was up 56%, I believe there are quite a lot of them. I don't believe people buy the 2 park and don't use it, so the Universal parks become much more susceptible to "first click." I expect to see as new attractions open, the attendance at both parks to ebb and flow Right now, USF gets them not only because of DA, but Transformers and Minion Mayhem, when Kong opens, it will probably tilt back IOA's way some.

When I wrote my other theme park geeks, I called the Hogwarts Express the real game changer, because it altered my perception of how to visit a theme park. I tend to view Universal more like a giant Epcot, with a WS and FW spread more apart. It's all one park, with some distance between the areas, but this convenient link between the two parks. So that makes the $147 justifiable because if you take the best of both parks, it's worth it. Way more than spending $90+ at DHS.

One day park to park ticket at Universal for $147? I just updated my AP for $170. That's what I call value.

 

[hopemax]

The other three parks are growing, just not as quickly.

We don't have enough data to show what kind of visitation patterns guests who visit both Universal and Disney are following right now; whether they're staying on or off Disney property or at one of Universal's resorts for some or part of their stay or whatever.

What does seem apparent is that Disney is profiting from the Harry Potter expansion nearly as much as Universal is.
Perhaps this is why we haven't seen much in the way of new attractions out of Disney in the last couple years, other than the Fantasyland stuff:
Disney doesn't have to give their guests a reason to return to Orlando- Universal does it for them.

What I wouldn't give for Length of Stay and ticket distribution stats, lol.

But the danger of letting someone else do all the heavy lifting is that someday, someone starts to notice, and they realize they don't have to pay 2 guys, when all they have to do is pay the one that is doing all the work.

 

[hopemax]

One day park to park ticket at Universal for $147? I just updated my AP for $170.

Uni AP renewal price is the "best kept secret," which makes me wonder when it will end. So don't tell anyone, lol. I have to buy my husband an AP for our trip in a couple weeks, and it will be $334.99 for the Preferred...no where near the bargain of the renewal price.

 

[Katie G]

What I am amazed at is that no one here yet has stated what should be very obvious to anyone crowing about the MK numbers. That is, if I'm running WDW and I can pull 19 million plus into one of my parks, yet not come close with my other three (two of which attract barely half the crowd) that Disney is doing one awful job of running a resort.

Even though MK is the most popular park, its more of a capacity thing than a poor operations thing. The other parks cannot physically hold as many people per day as MK can. Yes MK is more popular, Yes the other parks need work, but even if they improved the current footprint, physical space limits the amount of people in those parks which will not match MK without significant additional space added to those parks.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Ok, I'll bite.
The Walt Disney Company isn't a business, it's a ________ ?

You need to start backing up some of your statements. Do some research and some heavy lifting instead of just playing the troll.

If Epcot grew at the rate MK has in the past 20 years, they'd be pulling 16-17M a year instead of 11. Thats Five Million more people in turnstile revenue as well as merchandise, parking and Food/Bev.

You're telling me that 5 million more people a year in Epcot is a bad thing? Or an additional 3M a year in DHS/DAK? How on earth could another 11M guests/year coming to WDW be a bad thing economically?

 

[evilzorac]

Uni AP renewal price is the "best kept secret," which makes me wonder when it will end. So don't tell anyone, lol. I have to buy my husband an AP for our trip in a couple weeks, and it will be $334.99 for the Preferred...no where near the bargain of the renewal price.

Absolutely! Dropped my WDW passes 2yrs ago and have been buying Unis. In fact heading down tomorrow for a 4 night stay. It is our second 4 night trip this year. Surprised that we haven't missed Disney, but we haven't.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Even though MK is the most popular park, its more of a capacity thing than a poor operations thing. The other parks cannot physically hold as many people per day as MK can. Yes MK is more popular, Yes the other parks need work, but even if they improved the current footprint, physical space limits the amount of people in those parks which will not match MK without significant additional space added to those parks.

Uhhhhhhh Epcot holds more people than MK. Yes DAK/DHS top out around 50k but Epcot can hold somewhere in the 100-120k ballpark. In theory, you could fit 18.5M/yr in Dak/DHS if you tried.... or gave that many people a reason to come. Thats nearly double what they're currently puling.

Anyways, If you'll refer to the chart, you'll see that Epcot/DHS have been stagnant over the past 20 years and DAK haven't really grown much either since 1999.

 

[hopemax]

Even though MK is the most popular park, its more of a capacity thing than a poor operations thing. The other parks cannot physically hold as many people per day as MK can. Yes MK is more popular, Yes the other parks need work, but even if they improved the current footprint, physical space limits the amount of people in those parks which will not match MK without significant additional space added to those parks.

This only matters if we were hearing about capacity days at the smaller parks. We don't. It's not a "more people wanted to visit but couldn't, so their numbers are under what they could have been," situation. And lets back up...Epcot can't match the capacity of MK!

 

[Bairstow]

You need to start backing up some of your statements. Do some research and some heavy lifting instead of just playing the troll.

If Epcot grew at the rate MK has in the past 20 years, they'd be pulling 16-17M a year instead of 11. Thats Five Million more people in turnstile revenue as well as merchandise, parking and Food/Bev.

You're telling me that 5 million more people a year in Epcot is a bad thing? Or an additional 3M a year in DHS/DAK? How on earth could another 11M guests/year coming to WDW be a bad thing economically?

I'm still interested to hear what the Walt Disney Company is, since you seem to be insinuating it's not a business.

And no, I'm not saying that extra guests at Epcot or the Studios, or Animal Kingdom is a "bad thing". When did I say this?
If Disney could wave a magic wand and make 5 million extra people a year show up at the gates of EPCOT wanting spend money, they would.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I'm still interested to hear what the Walt Disney Company is, since you seem to be insinuating it's not a business.

And no, I'm not saying that extra guests at Epcot or the Studios, or Animal Kingdom is a "bad thing". When did I say this?
If Disney could wave a magic wand and make 5 million extra people a year show up at the gates of EPCOT wanting spend money, they would.

You've said that twice. You also said that it would be bad to grow the secondary parks. I offered a counter argument and asked you why it would be bad to add 5M guests/year to Epcot and you come back with this nonsense.

So go ahead, answer my question.

 

[PhotoDave219]

This only matters if we were hearing about capacity days at the smaller parks. We don't. It's not a "more people wanted to visit but couldn't, so their numbers are under what they could have been," situation. And lets back up...Epcot can't match the capacity of MK!

Epcot is 100-120. MK is 90-95, last i heard.

 

[Mike S]

I'm still interested to hear what the Walt Disney Company is, since you seem to be insinuating it's not a business.

And no, I'm not saying that extra guests at Epcot or the Studios, or Animal Kingdom is a "bad thing". When did I say this?
If Disney could wave a magic wand and make 5 million extra people a year show up at the gates of EPCOT wanting spend money, they would.

They do have that magic wand, it's called adding new incredible attractions. And guess what? They're not doing it. What they are doing has been a pathetically slow process.

 

[MKCP 1985]

Epcot holds more people than MK. Yes DAK/DHS top out around 50k but Epcot can hold somewhere in the 100-120k ballpark. In theory, you could fit 18.5M/yr in Dak/DHS if you tried.... or gave that many people a reason to come. Thats nearly double what they're currently puling.

Anyways, If you'll refer to the chart, you'll see that Epcot/DHS have been stagnant over the past 20 years and DAK haven't really grown much either since 1999.

Sorry, been away for a couple of days. Do WDW fans want more people at these 3 parks or better experiences there?
Better attractions will bring people to Animal Kingdom and Studios parks with little controversy but for some reason new attractions at Epcot make Epcot fans mad. They like their oversized science project/world's fair park.

Putting real attractions in World Showcase would boost attendance and make people furious all at the same time.

 

[MKCP 1985]

Epcot is 100-120. MK is 90-95, last i heard.

I think you are correct. Anything over 60k at Magic Kingdom is a miserable experience for everyone though.

 

[BernardandBianca]

Uni AP renewal price is the "best kept secret," which makes me wonder when it will end. So don't tell anyone, lol. I have to buy my husband an AP for our trip in a couple weeks, and it will be $334.99 for the Preferred...no where near the bargain of the renewal price.

We both had our Uni APs due for renewal, and the SO didn't want to renew. But we were going to the parks with friends, who of course wanted to do both including HE, and so when I said what the AP renewal price was, it was a no-brainer, renew.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I just picked your quote because it stated the concept the clearest. My question is: If I as an independent auditor am standing at the entrance to a park (any park) on property, how do I know if the person going through the turnstile is entering a park for the first time today, or if this is their second entrance into a park (either this same one or another one)? Without more, I have no way of knowing is this is a "first click" or not. So unless they are getting true attendance figures from the company (like OLC), everything they put out has to be a guess. Which is what I believe what they are saying when they state: AECOM obtains the figures used to create the TEA/AECOM Theme Index through a variety of sources, including statistics furnished directly by the operators, historical numbers, financial reports, the investment banking community and local tourism organizations, among others.

How could Buzz Price know people would visit Disneyland or Walt Disney World before their locations were even chosen?

 

[Katie G]

Epcot is 100-120. MK is 90-95, last i heard.

I believe they started phase closure at Epcot on NYE when attendance was less than that (there is a possibility I am wrong, but as a female I claim that can't ever really happen ).

 

[PhotoDave219]

I believe NYE last year started phase closure at Epcot (there is a possibility I am wrong, but as a female I claim that can't ever really happen ). Total attendance for that day was less than 100k

@marni1971 or @wdwmagic probably know better. I seem to recall hearing stories from the Millenium of having over 100k in Epcot.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I think you are correct. Anything over 60k at Magic Kingdom is a miserable experience for everyone though.

And with the average last year being at 52k..... Ugh.