A Spirited Perfect Ten

[AEfx]

Here's my thing. I feel like I asked some legitimate questions about typical relations between China and Western business, and my admitted lack of knowledge. Since Spirit has praised some of my posts, I thought perhaps it would show, that even among the "intelligent" that all these *wink* *winks* might be flying over heads. I did spend some time looking for the openings of other Western well-known businesses. Apple, and the most recent one Victoria Secret, and all I was really finding was the same things we're talking about with this Disney stuff. No photos of high ranking executives, hardly any photos at all, nothing in the major US business publications, some talk about how different China is, and so the West has to act in a measured manner, not so big expectations.

Yup. Precisely. I politely asked a legitimate question about what exactly he was saying this document was (it begins as an itinerary, and then reads like someone's personal interpretation/opinion of what happened next) and I didn't get an answer either. (I also asked about the translation, because it was said that some of it was, which can have a massive impact as well on how something reads.)

Like yourself, in spite of the fact that I have been very supportive of '74 over the years, I'm suddenly in that "adversary" group as well because I am asking questions and not falling lockstep into the "Iger must go down" agenda. As you outline in the rest of your posting, this need to make people "fans" or "enemies" has the bloom coming off of the rose.

I've done the same as you - and from what I can tell, this is typical for American businesses entering China. China has 1.4 Billion people that we want to legitimately join the global economy. Yes, companies are keeping low profiles and not being trotted out like this is Anaheim because the culture demands it. That's how you get success in China, a foothold. Walking in like the stereotypical "White man here to save you!" American, put-me-in-the-center attitude is NOT going to win long term.

As @lazyboy97o pointed out, the people going "OMG!!!! EPIC!" reading that - I'm not sure what they are reading. Well, I now how they are reading - they are reading from an AMERICAN business perspective and what they would expect to happen in the US. It's wholly naive to think that China can be treated the same way if we want to have our way with them later. I've read it three times, and except for the loaded implication that he was somehow under house arrest at one point (which if you read carefully, is implied, but is actually the reason I am curious about translation as that could make a huge amount of difference).

Basically, it boils down to this: some girls respond to "Hey baby, get in the bedroom and gimmie what I want - you know I love you." Other girls need to be sweet talked, deferred to, wined and dined, made to feel superior to a bumbling man who is just lucky to have a girl like that consider him, and then she decides when he is worthy.

However, the end result is the same - the guy gets what he wants. The only "controversy" here is that as this guys buddies, we all want him to "go in there and git'er done!" to a girl who would kick you to the curb unless you take a more nuanced, respectful approach.

 

[Shaman]

Then it was a bad deal for an american business.... No american company or any company should ever just grab their ankles to do business in an new market. Bad move by Disney... But it may be an eye opening experience for future business going forward.

Part of the problem is the corporate arrogance fostered by the American system. These companies get away with stuff here and then go over to another country and expect business as usual. Wrong.

The other side of this is that both China and Disney want to save face. The backstage/under-the-table dealings will be different than the official story.

I still think a Disney presence in mainland China is a huge win for America.

 

[AEfx]

Then it was a bad deal for an american business.... No american company or any company should ever just grab their ankles to do business in an new market. Bad move by Disney... But it may be an eye opening experience for future business going forward.

Why not?

Because that wouldn't be manly, because Americans always have to be the center of attention, because Americans always need to be in control, because Americans need to visibly dominate in every situation?

Dude, the USA has about 320 Million People. China has 1.4 BILLION people.

So we have: 320,000,000
They have: 1,400,000,000

We want those people to be our customers. The Chinese government is what stands between us and those 1.4B people. So yeah, they are going to be deferred to when it comes to reigning in this "American Invader" machismo that folks like yourself want us to have.

These minor little things are just that, because there are billions and billions and billions of dollars at stake right now, and the companies that are in the "plus" column with the Chinese government are going to win.

 

[WDW1974]

Because the crackdown on Party displays of extravagance could in no way be related? It still seems that a serious display of power would involve more than just a district deputy governor (who is listed near the bottom of the district website) being in the photos and press material.

There is a difference between extravagance and basically nothing. A middle ground, if you will. That was what was seemingly planned and then ...well, I stand by my sources.

This was not supposed to be a show of power by Disney in China or to China. This was supposed to be a coming out joint celebration WITH the government and for Disney (and especially Bob Iger and Tom Staggs) to look strong to people back home with their BRAND building.

Putting their characters on a stage, be it in Shanghai or out at the SDL site, isn't an extravagance. That's their product. It would be like Apple opening a store without having iPhones or iPads on display (I hesitate to use the word 'spotlight' lest it be turned around and against me, but it is appropriate here) in the spotlight.

Except graft was not a charge, just a coincidentally parallel discussion.

To be clear (for the umpteenth time), no one has publicly come out and accused Disney of being involved in graft (unless you consider some posters). It is another discussion, but one that seems to very much unsettle people at the highest levels of Disney.

That fact, knowledge of the crackdown by the CCP, plus my own experiences in China lead me to believe that it would be extremely (almost incredibly so ... like being struck by lightning) unlikely that no graft has happened on this project. Indeed, one of the men involved in the early stages of land acquisition/development was recently detained and brought up on charges.

I placed that information out here ... months ... hundreds of pages ago? ...

 

[maxairmike]

This little bit is what really caught my attention from @WDW1974's post. The bolded portion I think is especially important.

As of this visit, a plaque consistent with what appears in each Magic Kingdom will not be part of Shanghai Disneyland. Such a marker would "not be consistent" and "confuse and conflict" visitors who do not know of Walt Disney and will be invited in the state-directed propaganda to "their" park. Shanghai Disney Resort is not intended to be marketed as a destination except for the people of China.

That says to me the resort may be - while not directly closed to foreigners - artificially off limits to foreigners through pricing or other means of controlled entry. This, to me, has quite possibly the biggest implications of the whole thing both economically and culturally. Just a little something to chew on.

 

[WDW1974]

This is pretty astounding @WDW1974. This story really needs to get out there, and I'm surprised the business press hasn't picked up on it. Instead, we get a ton of stories about tiered ticket pricing based on survey questions...

How does this affect Disney? If Shanghai does well, Disney will probably get their share of the profits and no one will care. But considering the insane attendance predictions and their track record with Hong Kong and Paris, the park is just as likely to have problems. If the company has limited operational control...what are they going to tell shareholders? How can they fix things at the park? The Chinese government won't take over the park by force, but they could make the situation so intolerable that Disney sells. I think this has the makings of a really interesting book....

Yes, it does. One about as likely to be published as my tome on Mental Heath and The Disney Fan Community: How Pixie Dust Destroys the Brain.

I believe that Shanghai Disneyland Resort will do very well ... eventually. No, it won't attract 23-24 million visitors a year unless the CCP buses in thousands of people a day and sticks them on boats or around the lake and includes them in the attendance figures (something that already has been suggested to me as a possible number-building strategy)

But considering that every international resort, except Tokyo, has struggled at the start -- as have most domestic parks, I fully expect difficulties from opening.

The Chinese government isn't taking over the park. That keeps permeating these discussions and it isn't happening. Why take over something that's already yours?

 

[DrActorKJ]

Shanghai Disney Resort is not intended to be marketed as a destination except for the people of China.

Wow. This one sentence says it all, doesn't it? I really hope people can wrap their heads around what is truly happening here.

 

[gmajew]

Why not?

Because that wouldn't be manly, because Americans always have to be the center of attention, because Americans always need to be in control, because Americans need to visibly dominate in every situation?

Dude, the USA has about 320 Million People. China has 1.4 BILLION people.

So we have: 320,000,000
They have: 1,400,000,000

We want those people to be our customers. The Chinese government is what stands between us and those 1.4B people. So yeah, they are going to be deferred to when it comes to reigning in this "American Invader" machismo that folks like yourself want us to have.

These minor little things are just that, because there are billions and billions and billions of dollars at stake right now, and the companies that are in the "plus" column with the Chinese government are going to win.

Wrong! Stealing of IP etc is not tolerable or should be allowed.... If I invent something have a patent on something some punk in china government should not be able to just steal my rights and invention to cheaply knock it off.

That is wrong but that is what we are dealing with right now. They also can not have the same attitude that you stat and expect us to just give them control of everything because they have 1.2B people. Come on...

Business is a two way street right now China in a lot of fronts is pushing way to hard in favor of their way and at one point the people of china will revolt like every other country of its kind did.

It is not a sustainable system why do you think american manufacturing is coming back to US it is happening because they are no longer the savings for american business they once was.

We are still the backbone of their economy as the majority of what they produce is used by western civiliazation as the majority in china can not afford these goods.

So believe me it is a two way street and it needs to be fair both ways or American business won't go. We may need them but they need us just as bad and anyone that thinks otherwise is wrong.

 

[WDW1974]

I find it interesting that you would even be concerned with the opinions of the naysayers. Their arguments are not very compelling.

The information you present suggests that TWDC had a prearranged (supposedly recent) agreement on how the events would unfold. Would TWDC be that naive to expect their "cavalcade" of publicity or did the situation simply change that quickly with the Chinese? We have heard other's speculation on the approach the Chinese took but an informed opinion from someone with the proper insight would be welcome.

Without engaging in speculation myself, I'd suggest that it was some of both mixed with what has become an incredibly toxic relationship. (You did see how tired, weary, burned out etc ... Bob looked when he arrived in Anaheim?)

And, no, every relationship between an American company and a Chinese government entity doesn't go down like this.

 

[gmajew]

The Chinese government isn't taking over the park. That keeps permeating these discussions and it isn't happening. Why take over something that's already yours?

No they are going to make Disney work their butts off to hold up their end of the deal.... They just want the appearance they are in control and it is their park.... But they want them to run it....

 

[AEfx]

Information like this makes one believe Gary Snyder and his "Disney CEO Fumbles Entry to China" article to be quite prescient.

Didja read the article before you labeled it "quite prescient"?

It's difficult to find on Google, but you can find it back in this thread.

"[W]e have so many Western companies in China, but you cannot simply replicate the Western ideas and philosophies in China. They need to adapt to the Chinese realities... So for Fortune 500 companies in China it's very important, it's imperative for them to learn traditional culture in China and how is it interrelated with the modern business culture."

Golly gee, that doesn't sound like the thought Iger should run into China with his big thing hanging out and waving it in the Chinese faces, does it?

Now, the majority of the rest of the article is really a blog opinion piece that rails Iger previously, but what the many mentions of Gary Snyder do not mention is that he is a member of the Redstone family which owns Viacom - a direct competitor for Disney.

Gee, I wonder why his piece was removed? Nah, not conflict of interest - must have been that Shady Iger in between his puppy beating sessions!

The more you look into this all, the more it completely falls apart.

 

[hopemax]

Wow. This one sentence says it all, doesn't it? I really hope people can wrap their heads around what is truly happening here.

Except, that it doesn't, IMO. Why should Shanghai DL be marketed internationally? How much international marketing does Disneyland really do, they hardly advertise in the eastern part of the US!? How much do the other parks advertise outside of their region? WDW is marketed heavily, but they are more the exception. There is a reason our Disneyland is considered a "locals" park, why should their's be any different? Now if a non-Chinese person in Shanghai on business, or a Disney freak fan who travels a lot were to show up at the gate and not be allowed in THAT would be news.

 

[AEfx]

Wrong! Stealing of IP etc is not tolerable or should be allowed.... If I invent something have a patent on something some punk in china government should not be able to just steal my rights and invention to cheaply knock it off.

I don't know WTH you are talking about.

Disney is "bending over" right now, as you put it, to PROTECT THEIR IP.

Dude, you are the perfect caricature of the Ugly American Businessman right now because you are not paying attention and not listening and just spouting off about what's under your shorts.

Right now, China is deciding if it falls lockstep with the rest of the world with IP/Copyright/Trademarks and the like. They can either go the way of making sure companies like Disney have the most protection possible, or they could go the way of "screw the Westerners".

Disney wants a seat at the table of this discussion, which is WHY THIS PARK IS HAPPENING in the first place.

My goodness I don't know how you can bluster so when you are arguing for the exact opposite of what you think you are.

 

[AEfx]

Wow. This one sentence says it all, doesn't it? I really hope people can wrap their heads around what is truly happening here.

That the 1.4 BILLION people in China are enough population to support it? Particularly since it's the third Asian resort site anyway?

 

[gmajew]

I don't know WTH you are talking about.

Disney is "bending over" right now, as you put it, to PROTECT THEIR IP.

Dude, you are the perfect caricature of the Ugly American Businessman right now because you are not paying attention and not listening and just spouting off about what's under your shorts.

Right now, China is deciding if it falls lockstep with the rest of the world with IP/Copyright/Trademarks and the like. They can either go the way of making sure companies like Disney have the most protection possible, or they could go the way of "screw the Westerners".

Disney wants a seat at the table of this discussion, which is WHY THIS PARK IS HAPPENING in the first place.

My goodness I don't know how you can bluster so when you are arguing for the exact opposite of what you think you are.

Man you really have no clue what your talking about when it comes to me... I am actually one of those business man that is involved with the mess of China not falling lock and step with the rest of the world. I have seen first hand patents being stolen and used over in china... I have also had a first hand fight with one of my business name being held hostage by the china gov when we were in talks to do business in the market back in the day.

They have not been lock and step and truly anything they are doing right now is to just appease people.

Next issue disney is bending over to protect their IP.... Which should not be needed... but because China is not conforming to the rest of the world we are in these spots.

 

[AEfx]

Except, that it doesn't, IMO. Why should Shanghai DL be marketed internationally? How much international marketing does Disneyland really do, they hardly advertise in the eastern part of the US!? How much do the other parks advertise outside of their region? WDW is marketed heavily, but they are more the exception. There is a reason our Disneyland is considered a "locals" park, why should their's be any different? Now if a non-Chinese person in Shanghai on business, or a Disney freak fan who travels a lot were to show up at the gate and not be allowed in THAT would be news.

Overall I agree - to be fair, though, Disneyland does have a TON of international guests. They don't really need to advertise it - it's Disneyland, every tourist who comes to Los Angeles needs to go to Disneyland at least once on their trip.

Oddly, when I've visited, it's been mostly Asian tourists, much more so than the largely European/Australian tourists that you see at WDW. I say oddly because, particularly the large portions of Japanese tourists, they have TDL and TDS and yet they are still eager to see ours. Similar to how most Europeans I have met at WDW (particularly the English) detest DLP.

But your overall point is very solid - and I completely agree - China is terrified right now of losing it's identity. This is STILL a communist country. The reason they have shut Westerners out for so long is the fear of Westernization.

Everything going on makes perfect sense to anyone who isn't so focused on "Me American, Me Always Must Be The Top!" mentality or desperately looking for anything to get Iger on.

 

[AEfx]

Man you really have no clue what your talking about when it comes to me... I am actually one of those business man that is involved with the mess of China not falling lock and step with the rest of the world. I have seen first hand patents being stolen and used over in china... I have also had a first hand fight with one of my business name being held hostage by the china gov when we were in talks to do business in the market back in the day.

Back in the day...key phrase.

It's a new day. And I'm sorry, your ideas are antiquated.

 

[maxairmike]

Except, that it doesn't, IMO. Why should Shanghai DL be marketed internationally? How much international marketing does Disneyland really do, they hardly advertise in the eastern part of the US!? How much do the other parks advertise outside of their region? WDW is marketed heavily, but they are more the exception. There is a reason our Disneyland is considered a "locals" park, why should their's be any different? Now if a non-Chinese person in Shanghai on business, or a Disney freak fan who travels a lot were to show up at the gate and not be allowed in THAT would be news.

The bolded is what that sentence suggests to me, except likely not outright closure to foreigners, likely using "softer" measures like pricing or "phased closings" as a control. The "except for the people of China" is the important part of the sentence. That "except for" is exclusionary, and it is excluding everyone but the people of China. This is clearly "China's Disney park," and that exclusionary statement makes it even more clear.

 

[hopemax]

Overall I agree - to be fair, though, Disneyland does have a TON of international guests. They don't really need to advertise it - it's Disneyland, every tourist who comes to Los Angeles needs to go to Disneyland at least once on their trip.

Oddly, when I've visited, it's been mostly Asian tourists, much more so than the largely European/Australian tourists that you see at WDW.

But your overall point is very solid - and I completely agree - China is terrified right now of losing it's identity. This is STILL a communist country. The reason they have shut Westerners out for so long is the fear of Westernization.

Everything going on makes perfect sense to anyone who isn't so focused on "Me American, Me Always Must Be The Top!" mentality or desperately looking for anything to get Iger on.

It would be different if China were the size and population of North Korea, but as you pointed out...1.4 billion people. How much international exposure do they need?

 

[AEfx]

It would be different if China were the size and population of North Korea, but as you pointed out...1.4 billion people. How much international exposure do they need?

Oh yes, I absolutely agree on that. I was just mentioning that yes, indeed, Disneyland does have massive amounts of International visitors (on some visits, I have been in lines/on attractions and been the only American in the area) before someone else did and tried to dismiss your very valid point on that one minor correction.