A Spirited Perfect Ten

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
I personally enjoyed the Star Trek movies, and I say this as a huge Trek fan who grew up watching the series (including but not limited to the original series). But whether you enjoy them or not, there's still the fact that Lawrence Kasdan is also writing the SW7 screenplay alongside JJ. I am fully prepared to be wrong, but i really do feel there are some obviously talented people working on this and EP7 at least has a fighting chance of being a decent movie.

The only major thing that bothers me about the Trek movies is the lack of a new TV series, it has been about a decade since one was made. I miss the episodic format and feel it's time for a new one. I hope that there's another series made someday, there HAVE been rumors (including one recent one last month), but nothing concrete...
 
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AEfx

Well-Known Member
Well, sortof.

Lucas really didn't mind pimping the brand out until he realized that the brand carried power. And the brand meant something.

Then they started to care. But, that took decades (literally)...

I guess that's a much larger topic - it depends on what angle you are looking at (and Lucas' notorious inconsistency) - but in any case, in terms of cohesiveness, what they are doing under Disney ownership is something that they didn't even attempt. Instead, they hired a guy to keep it all sorted in a database assigning a ridiculous amount of "levels" of canon.

I do agree that Ep VII will be a unique moment in pop culture...I just hope that we are not given the same crap that JJ has shoveled before.

Ah, not a JJ fan, huh? LOL.

I've read that he's a "huge Star Wars fan" and the theories that he did "Star Trek" just to "prove" that he can do a space saga...

I...personally...don't buy that.

Don't buy that - because it's hogwash. And Abrams hasn't ever claimed any such thing. Fanboi blather.

He is a huge, since the beginning, Star Wars fan, but he started getting involved in Star Trek going on a decade ago now - back when no one would have ever suspected this was going to happen, back when someone who suggested that Episode VII would ever be made would be sent to the funny bin. He even turned it down the first time it was offered to him.

He may be a huge SW fan, but he shat all over Star Trek, and as a director, I'd like to see something better. I dunno, like understanding the source material? Sure, there is a lot with ST for him to grasp, but even if he'd just spent a weekend on TOS, he'd get it if he was so adept.

Well, this we are going to disagree on. He saved Trek. Well, that's not even something we can disagree on, as the numbers speak for themselves. He took a completely dead, driven into the ground movie franchise and turned it into the biggest hit it's ever been.

While a section of the core Trek fanbase was disappointed (primarily with the last film), the core fanbase is a drop in the bucket of the millions of folks who now pay to go see Trek movies. It's also the matter of "What is Trek?" because that has changed considerably over the years, particularly since it has never had a single direction.

Roddenberry in particular, by the end, basically stated that there was no conflict in the 23rd century and completely denied the very nautical roots of the story (which is why he was pretty much ignored after TMP and even the most ardent fans have to admit that TNG didn't get good until his involvement ceased). He hated Trek II and VI in particular - two of the most successful and beloved of the original films.

It's a long topic to get in to, but the primary complaint I guess folks have is they have too many action sequences - which I firmly believe we would have seen much more in the Trek films if they weren't always essentially low-budget pictures. After the relative disappointment/expense of TMP, Paramount treated the original Trek films as barely a step above "Friday the 13th" - if they weren't constantly redressing the same couple of sets because they couldn't afford to build more, you would have seen less talk = more action.

I do think that he doesn't get enough credit from those fans for reviving the franchise, particularly since he did the greatest fan service ever in what I call the "Abrams maneuver" - the fact that he led the charge to painstakingly keep canon intact. If it were solely up to Paramount, it would have been a straight reboot. They had no desire to preserve what is now Trek Prime. I can tell you, if that had happened - I wouldn't have been interested at all.

So no matter if one liked the final product or not, I think that there shows a whole lot about respecting a franchise's roots.

I am skeptical, but I must admit, the latest teaser has excited me.

And it's cool to be skeptical. I've been following this very closely for quite some time, on all levels - and although I am absolutely no "insider" I do know a few folks on the fringe (licensees, etc.) and everything I have heard has been very positive, that the new trilogy is being made as direct sequels to the OT.

You should check out Abrams and Kathleen Kennedy's panel at Celebration from last week. It's about 45 minutes, you can find it on YouTube. When you hear the approach that has been taken - filming on actual film, building real sets, model work as opposed to CGI cartoons everywhere, etc. - it's the antithesis of the prequels. Everyone involved has made it very clear that the goal is to capture the OT and make the films we always wanted.

Another great thing to check out is Kevin Smith's on-set experience...I think that will give you the warm fuzzies, LOL.
 

Tony Perkis

Well-Known Member
That said, regarding Star Wars, I despise the prequels, but my kiddo doesn't.

That's important to factor in. I look at Jar Jar as terrible writing, but she sees him as a fun character. I didn't quite understand her standpoint until I caught up on Clone Wars (which she watched as a kid, I didn't until I did a binge on Netflix)...

And, those cartoons bridge a lot of the complaints fans had about Ep 1 - 3...and make them far more epic upon rewatching than they were in the theaters initially.
Sorry, but no. The cartoon series doesn't fix terrible dialogue, bad acting, dated CGI overload, and midichlorians.

The prequels aren't just bad by SW standards; they're bad by any standard.

Bad directing, bad writing, bad storytelling....and Lucas still found a way to bleed those films' awfulness into the original trilogy.

This isn't a generational divide between young and old regarding the prequels. They are legitimately bad films.
 
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AEfx

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but no. The cartoon series doesn't fix terrible dialogue, bad acting, dated CGI overload, and midichlorians.

The prequels aren't just bad by SW standards; they're bad by any standard.

Bad directing, bad writing, bad storytelling....and Lucas still found a way to bleed those films' awfulness into the original trilogy.

This isn't a generational divide between young and old regarding the prequels. They are legitimately bad films.

To be totally fair, the OT has many of the same issues (save CGI) - but I understand what you mean and largely agree (though I can still enjoy most of the prequels, they are no where near the level of the OT to me).

The difference between the OT and the Prequels is that back during the OT, there were enough other people involved who made up for Lucas' lack of seeing "the big picture" with their own contributions. From Marcia Lucas (she won the Oscar for a good reason) to Irvin Kershner, and the many folks in between, the most successful part of the films came from utilizing the expertise of others. I mean, a lot of folks don't realize he didn't even direct ESB and ROTJ.

Contrast that with the prequels. Lucas was completely autonomous. There were no months long story and script sessions with multiple real writers to work everything out. Lucas sat down, and wrote them, one by one, in between each film. And it shows - he painted himself into so many corners because they were so poorly planned out. They didn't even have a script for the last one until weeks before they started shooting. There was Lucas' draft, and that was it.

In the end, I think the biggest crime of the PT is that it told a story that didn't really need to be told - the few lines in Star Wars pretty much sum the events up rather well. We didn't need three films to tell it. We might have seen past the wooden acting, the bad dialogue, the terrible plotting - if it had been a compelling story, and not simply the Great Neutering of what was perhaps the most important film villain of all time.
 

bhg469

Well-Known Member
I guess that's a much larger topic - it depends on what angle you are looking at (and Lucas' notorious inconsistency) - but in any case, in terms of cohesiveness, what they are doing under Disney ownership is something that they didn't even attempt. Instead, they hired a guy to keep it all sorted in a database assigning a ridiculous amount of "levels" of canon.



Ah, not a JJ fan, huh? LOL.



Don't buy that - because it's hogwash. And Abrams hasn't ever claimed any such thing. Fanboi blather.

He is a huge, since the beginning, Star Wars fan, but he started getting involved in Star Trek going on a decade ago now - back when no one would have ever suspected this was going to happen, back when someone who suggested that Episode VII would ever be made would be sent to the funny bin. He even turned it down the first time it was offered to him.



Well, this we are going to disagree on. He saved Trek. Well, that's not even something we can disagree on, as the numbers speak for themselves. He took a completely dead, driven into the ground movie franchise and turned it into the biggest hit it's ever been.

While a section of the core Trek fanbase was disappointed (primarily with the last film), the core fanbase is a drop in the bucket of the millions of folks who now pay to go see Trek movies. It's also the matter of "What is Trek?" because that has changed considerably over the years, particularly since it has never had a single direction.

Roddenberry in particular, by the end, basically stated that there was no conflict in the 23rd century and completely denied the very nautical roots of the story (which is why he was pretty much ignored after TMP and even the most ardent fans have to admit that TNG didn't get good until his involvement ceased). He hated Trek II and VI in particular - two of the most successful and beloved of the original films.

It's a long topic to get in to, but the primary complaint I guess folks have is they have too many action sequences - which I firmly believe we would have seen much more in the Trek films if they weren't always essentially low-budget pictures. After the relative disappointment/expense of TMP, Paramount treated the original Trek films as barely a step above "Friday the 13th" - if they weren't constantly redressing the same couple of sets because they couldn't afford to build more, you would have seen less talk = more action.

I do think that he doesn't get enough credit from those fans for reviving the franchise, particularly since he did the greatest fan service ever in what I call the "Abrams maneuver" - the fact that he led the charge to painstakingly keep canon intact. If it were solely up to Paramount, it would have been a straight reboot. They had no desire to preserve what is now Trek Prime. I can tell you, if that had happened - I wouldn't have been interested at all.

So no matter if one liked the final product or not, I think that there shows a whole lot about respecting a franchise's roots.



And it's cool to be skeptical. I've been following this very closely for quite some time, on all levels - and although I am absolutely no "insider" I do know a few folks on the fringe (licensees, etc.) and everything I have heard has been very positive, that the new trilogy is being made as direct sequels to the OT.

You should check out Abrams and Kathleen Kennedy's panel at Celebration from last week. It's about 45 minutes, you can find it on YouTube. When you hear the approach that has been taken - filming on actual film, building real sets, model work as opposed to CGI cartoons everywhere, etc. - it's the antithesis of the prequels. Everyone involved has made it very clear that the goal is to capture the OT and make the films we always wanted.

Another great thing to check out is Kevin Smith's on-set experience...I think that will give you the warm fuzzies, LOL.
Between Kevin Smiths experience and my own friends retelling of what he picked up from some first unit camera crew members, I had the movie somewhat spoiled but I'm still dying to see it. The Haan scene in the latest trailer only solidified that feeling.
 

bhg469

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but no. The cartoon series doesn't fix terrible dialogue, bad acting, dated CGI overload, and midichlorians.

The prequels aren't just bad by SW standards; they're bad by any standard.

Bad directing, bad writing, bad storytelling....and Lucas still found a way to bleed those films' awfulness into the original trilogy.

This isn't a generational divide between young and old regarding the prequels. They are legitimately bad films.
The cartoons still had enough goofy stuff in it that turned me off completely.
 

bhg469

Well-Known Member
I'm expecting nothing more than a M&G for FL I have never understood where the grand expectations come from.
Despite what common sense tells us, we still want to think that Disney would bother to give us a next level experience when it comes to this particular property. At the end of the day they absolutely do not have too. They are getting all the revenue they need to keep shareholders happy and the 21st century guest is definitely not discerning enough to turn away.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Comparing the last released Star Wars film to The Force Awakens is ridiculous and ignores all context.

The prequels were horribly reviewed, largely a joke among the existing fan base, in no way managed the cross-generational appeal of the original trilogy.

I'm for sure a huge Star Wars nerd, but unlike "fanbois" I don't give a whit if my favorite property is financially successful or not. I have no feeling or "ownership" in wanting it to do well.

That said, based on the past two weeks, I'd wager it's not only is it going to be the most successful film of the decade, it's completely in the realm of possibility that it's going to knock Avatar off the top spot of all time, since Star Wars will also have the same benefit of the 3D tax included.

The fanbase is what has been awakened - the ones who have been dormant since the 1980's. Have you seen the reactions of folks? I saw an entire office full of 30 and 40-somethings who grew up with Star Wars absolutely transfixed by the trailer - tears in eyes that Han Solo rides again. People that haven't thought about Star Wars in years, who didn't go see a single prequel, who have been re-energized.

The trailer with Han and Chewie was just the tip of the ice berg - some folks had heard "oh yeah, they are making some new Star Wars films, huh?" but it was a far different thing when folks saw that trailer, and it's only going to amp up from here. Heck, there are "reaction videos" to the trailer that themselves have millions of views - the public appetite has just been whet and it's just begun.

Movies that do spectacularly well do so because of a) repeat viewers, and b) cross-generational appeal. TFA has both of these things going for it in an unprecedented way. There are people in their 60's and 70's who will come out just to see the original cast - Harrison Ford alone guarantees that.

If ever there were a film to be "over-confident" about, TFA is it.
I still don't understand why Revenge of the Sith gets lumped in with Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones from a "horrible movie" standpoint. I think Episode 3 stands up quite well with the original trilogy and for what it's worth, Rotten Tomatoes agrees.
 

bhg469

Well-Known Member
I still don't understand why Revenge of the Sith gets lumped in with Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones from a "horrible movie" standpoint. I think Episode 3 stands up quite well with the original trilogy and for what it's worth, Rotten Tomatoes agrees.
I think the Noooooooooooo! Scene really was powerful for all the wrong reasons. Also the birth of Luke and Leia was super cheesy. It definitely has more redeeming factors in it than episodes 1 and 2 though. I feel like 3 was definitely tweaked to be less like the predecessors due to their issues though.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Despite what common sense tells us, we still want to think that Disney would bother to give us a next level experience when it comes to this particular property. At the end of the day they absolutely do not have too. They are getting all the revenue they need to keep shareholders happy and the 21st century guest is definitely not discerning enough to turn away.

It would be nice if it felt as though WDW wanted to create a immersive star wars experience, but if the past decade is any example it's just not going to happen and no point in getting ones hopes up.

WDW is happy because parks are generating billions in revenue and the Street is happy and the average first time guest is so overwhelmed they do not know enough to be disappointed.

The amazing thing is that WDW is indeed turning into a museum with attractions and entertainment which rarely if ever changes.
 

gmajew

Premium Member
Well, sortof.

Lucas really didn't mind pimping the brand out until he realized that the brand carried power. And the brand meant something.

Then they started to care. But, that took decades (literally)...

I do agree that Ep VII will be a unique moment in pop culture...I just hope that we are not given the same crap that JJ has shoveled before.

I've read that he's a "huge Star Wars fan" and the theories that he did "Star Trek" just to "prove" that he can do a space saga...

I...personally...don't buy that.

He may be a huge SW fan, but he shat all over Star Trek, and as a director, I'd like to see something better. I dunno, like understanding the source material? Sure, there is a lot with ST for him to grasp, but even if he'd just spent a weekend on TOS, he'd get it if he was so adept.

I am skeptical, but I must admit, the latest teaser has excited me.


I think he did a good job with the Star Trek movies. It was popcorn fare and that is what you got.... None of those movies though were ever real deep or moving. They were always action and a clean wrap up.
 

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