A Spirited Perfect Ten

[ford91exploder]

The technology list you reference has to do with actual government work, not all state owned companies. The U.S. invokes similar "Buy American" clauses into government projects.


That still makes no sense. There is nothing overly unique about Disney operations. The amount Disney pays in is a pittance compared to what a Shanghai will pay, and Disney not being a cost effective enterprise has been well discussed. Everything could have been gained more quickly, for less money without Disney.

You are forgetting that EVERY large company in China has majority ownership from either the central or provincial governments or both in many cases. So effectively pretty much any company with more than 100 or so employees is 'Government Owned'. As such subject to the 'China Only' IT equipment policy.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Euro Disney SCA, because it is an SCA, is not wholly owned by The Walt Disney Company but it has always been run like a wholly owned subsidiary of The Walt Disney Company.

Well, at least until recently, Euro Disney wasn't a wholly owned subsidiary.

In some interesting business news, Invesco, Euro Disney's third largest shareholder, reportedly dumped its entire stake in Euro Disney.

 

[lazyboy97o]

You are forgetting that EVERY large company in China has majority ownership from either the central or provincial governments or both in many cases. So effectively pretty much any company with more than 100 or so employees is 'Government Owned'. As such subject to the 'China Only' IT equipment policy.

The rules apply to the government specifically, not state-owned enterprises.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Well, at least until recently, Euro Disney wasn't a wholly owned subsidiary.

In some interesting business news, Invesco, Euro Disney's third largest shareholder, reportedly dumped its entire stake in Euro Disney.

With the recapitalization complete, I believe Disney now controls over 70% of Euro Disney stock. By law, they are required to make tender offers to the remaining shareholders.

What percentage does the French Government hold in ED SCA?

 

[ThemeParkTraveller]

A previous attempt to build a Castle park in china went bad.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...22-china-fake-disneyland-disney-world-travel/

The Chinese park posted by RandySavage certainly looks like they have the skills to pull off the level of theming WDI can accomplish.

I find the latest Disney Copycat Park,Taishan Fantawild Adventure Park (opened 2010), in China to be fascinating in its attempts to copy&paste sections from some of the best examples in Disney's repetoire (TDS, DLP). It's an interesting study in the art of theme park design and architecture: a Frankenstein's monster.

 

[GoofGoof]

If Shanghai wanted a theme park they could have built a theme park. They didn't need two decades to get that goal accomplished. They also could have offered enough cash to poach plenty of people from Walt Disney Imagineering. Disney has a degree of control in design and construction that is unusual.

So much of the discussion has also been about how the properties are unknown. And you're repatedly ignoring the massive efforts that have been made to normalize IP enforcement on the Mainland.


Disney doesn't really have any operational secrets acquired by partnering with them. It'd just be a bunch of bad press. IP enforcement is an issue that directly impacts business, and it is now impacting local companies as well. Shanghai wants to be a global center, they're not going to blow that by screwing over one of world's largest entertainment companies. Moves in China are calculated, not done on a whim because they can be done.

This is my thinking too. It's a remote possibility that the Chinese government could just "take" the park from Disney. I'm thinking it would take something just short of actual declared war with the U.S. If that happens the fate of some theme park is going to be the last thing I'm worried about.

Assuming we manage to avoid WWIII, it's in the best interest of the Chinese government to have this park succeed and have Disney as a partner. If successful they may actually want to build several more parks.

 

[ParentsOf4]

This is my thinking too. It's a remote possibility that the Chinese government could just "take" the park from Disney. I'm thinking it would take something just short of actual declared war with the U.S. If that happens the fate of some theme park is going to be the last thing I'm worried about.

Assuming we manage to avoid WWIII, it's in the best interest of the Chinese government to have this park succeed and have Disney as a partner. If successful they may actually want to build several more parks.

The problem with having the majority shareholder essentially be a foreign dictatorship is that they hold all the cards. Disney has little recourse when they don't see eye-to-eye, and there will be times when they don't see eye-to-eye.

For as long as Iger has been at Disney, Disney has conducted its business from a position of strength. Now Disney has partnered with the proverbial 800 pound gorilla. I'm not sure Iger has a true appreciation of just how weak Disney is in China, both as a brand and as a business partner.

It wouldn't take World War III for Disney to lose everything, just a bunch of government officials deciding they are better off without Disney than with Disney.

We're not talking about some storefronts; we're talking about a massive infrastructure that could be repurposed. Can anyone say "Hello Kitty Land"?

It would be naïve to think that the Shanghai Shendi Group doesn't have contingency plans if the Chinese public doesn't embrace the Disney brand. Does Disney?

I'm not suggesting it will happen, only that it makes some investors nervous.

 

[ford91exploder]

The rules apply to the government specifically, not state-owned enterprises.

Not entirely true, Banks and other 'strategic' enterprises are covered as well

 

[GoofGoof]

The problem with having the majority shareholder essentially be a foreign dictatorship is that they hold all the cards. Disney has little recourse when they don't see eye-to-eye, and there will be times when they don't see eye-to-eye.

For as long as Iger has been at Disney, Disney has conducted its business from a position of strength. Now Disney has partnered with the proverbial 800 pound gorilla. I'm not sure Iger has a true appreciation of just how weak Disney is in China, both as a brand and as a business partner.

It wouldn't take World War III for Disney to lose everything, just a bunch of government officials deciding they are better off without Disney than with Disney.

We're not talking about some storefronts; we're talking about a massive infrastructure that could be repurposed. Can anyone say "Hello Kitty Land"?

It would be naïve to think that the Shanghai Shendi Group doesn't have contingency plans if the Chinese public doesn't embrace the Disney brand. Does Disney?

I'm not suggesting it will happen, only that it makes some investors nervous.

Agreed. If the park is a failure it could be a total loss for Disney. I was more talking about if the opposite happens. If the park is successful there is little reason for the Chinese government to get rid of Disney.

 

[RandySavage]

The Chinese park posted by RandySavage certainly looks like they have the skills to pull off the level of theming WDI can accomplish.

I don't think you're being sarcastic, so I'll say the purpose of those photos was to show how NOT to design a park. There is zero rhyme, reason, integration or even basic understanding of architecture, much less the theatrical version employed by WED/WDI over the years to great success.

SDL will be the first 'Tier I' park in mainland China. Whether the Chinese will fall in love with the way Americans and Japanese have, we shall see.

 

[ford91exploder]

The problem with having the majority shareholder essentially be a foreign dictatorship is that they hold all the cards. Disney has little recourse when they don't see eye-to-eye, and there will be times when they don't see eye-to-eye.

For as long as Iger has been at Disney, Disney has conducted its business from a position of strength. Now Disney has partnered with the proverbial 800 pound gorilla. I'm not sure Iger has a true appreciation of just how weak Disney is in China, both as a brand and as a business partner.

It wouldn't take World War III for Disney to lose everything, just a bunch of government officials deciding they are better off without Disney than with Disney.

We're not talking about some storefronts; we're talking about a massive infrastructure that could be repurposed. Can anyone say "Hello Kitty Land"?

It would be naïve to think that the Shanghai Shendi Group doesn't have contingency plans if the Chinese public doesn't embrace the Disney brand. Does Disney?

I'm not suggesting it will happen, only that it makes some investors nervous.

This is the point I've been trying to make. People assume property rights exist in china, They do not at least as we westerners know them. China will ALLOW an individual to hold 'property' but that holding can be revoked (and routinely IS) revoked by the government if the bureacracy feels that another holder can make a use which is more beneficial to the chinese people.

China regards property as a asset of the State, Individuals may be granted the right to hold it temporarily but make no mistake it's a state asset and subject to reassignment at any time for any reason.

Does Disney have a plan in the event of being booted by Shendi???

 

[ford91exploder]

Agreed. If the park is a failure it could be a total loss for Disney. I was more talking about if the opposite happens. If the park is successful there is little reason for the Chinese government to get rid of Disney.

There is also no reason to KEEP Disney either if Shendi believes it has the capacity to run the park.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The problem with having the majority shareholder essentially be a foreign dictatorship is that they hold all the cards. Disney has little recourse when they don't see eye-to-eye, and there will be times when they don't see eye-to-eye.

But this has not played out in this manner. Disney has been given a huge amount of control when it comes to construction. A big part of why shoddy construction is so rampant is because it is so tied into the state, a state that by its ideological nature cannot be wrong. Disney is essentially being allowed to engage in sedition in a dictatorship.

I don't think you're being sarcastic, so I'll say the purpose of those photos was to show how NOT to design a park. There is zero rhyme, reason, integration or even basic understanding of architecture, much less the theatrical version employed by WED/WDI over the years to great success.

SDL will be the first 'Tier I' park in mainland China. Whether the Chinese will fall in love with the way Americans and Japanese have, we shall see.

Do you know of any recent photos? It's be interesting to see how the construction has actually held up even after only four years.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Agreed. If the park is a failure it could be a total loss for Disney. I was more talking about if the opposite happens. If the park is successful there is little reason for the Chinese government to get rid of Disney.

If the park is successful, it's not a matter of getting rid of Disney but instead it's a matter of "How much can I squeeze Disney?"

Business people don't sit around and say, "I'm making enough, no need to make more." Usually they're looking for opportunities to increase their positions and, sometimes, that means squeezing their alleged "business partners".

Who is Disney going to complain to if they get squeezed?

 

[ParentsOf4]

But this has not played out in this manner. Disney has been given a huge amount of control when it comes to construction. A big part of why shoddy construction is so rampant is because it is so tied into the state, a state that by its ideological nature cannot be wrong. Disney is essentially being allowed to engage in sedition in a dictatorship.

And who kicked in the extra $800 million to fix this shoddy construction?

 

[ThemeParkTraveller]

I don't think you're being sarcastic, so I'll say the purpose of those photos was to show how NOT to design a park. There is zero rhyme, reason, integration or even basic understanding of architecture, much less the theatrical version employed by WED/WDI over the years to great success.

SDL will be the first 'Tier I' park in mainland China. Whether the Chinese will fall in love with the way Americans and Japanese have, we shall see.

I've only seen the few pictures of the park you posted, but I feel that the individual buildings themselves are quite well themed. After searching up the rest of the park, I would agree the park as whole looks like a jumbled mess of buildings and themes that do not flow together at all to create a seamless immersive experience. I do think for a non-Disney/Universal park, they've managed to create some pretty elaborate facades. Much better than other knock-offs I've seen.

 

[wogwog]

There is also no reason to KEEP Disney either if Shendi believes it has the capacity to run the park.

I don't know the numbers of people involved or what positions they will fill at SDL but cast I know tell me they have on boarded a great number of Chinese college students as part of the WDW International College Program over the past few years. Many of them openly say they are going to be working at SDL. They also have groups of post college age Chinese being taken around the MK on stage and behind the scenes. Some have been introduced as management for SDL Very smart by the Chinese as well as Disney.

 

[RandySavage]

Maybe it was naivete, but I've been told that business partnerships in China were treated as trusted friendships, not "how fast can I screw over and expel my partner."

 

[fillerup]

And who kicked in the extra $800 million to fix this shoddy construction?

I believe 57 percent Shendi 43 percent Disney.

I could be wrong though.

 

[lazyboy97o]

And who kicked in the extra $800 million to fix this shoddy construction?

That is the amount disclosed on Disney's end. The benefits reaped from various government agencies are far larger than the official expenditures related to Disney projects in Southern California, Florida, France and Hong Kong. The unrelated gains were a big part of why Hong Kong and Disney fought over the expansion, Disney saying they met their financial obligations and Hong Kong pointing to the extraneous work that went into actually making the facility function. Besides, which Disney park opened on or under budget?

I don't know the numbers of people involved or what positions they will fill at SDL but cast I know tell me they have on boarded a great number of Chinese college students as part of the WDW International College Program over the past few years. Many of them openly say they are going to be working at SDL. They also have groups of post college age Chinese being taken around the MK on stage and behind the scenes. Some have been introduced as management for SDL Very smart by the Chinese as well as Disney.

That is nothing new or unusual. People were trained for running Walt Disney World at Disneyland. The pattern repeated itself for Tokyo Disneyland, Euro Disneyland and Hong Kong Disneyland.