A Spirited Perfect Ten

[ford91exploder]

As long as the return is good enough, there always will be someone willing to take the risk.

Still, I agree with what I think is your larger sentiment that China is not going to nationalize Disney's portion of the park for breach of contract.

They'd simply change local business laws until they got what they wanted. It's not like Disney can pick up and move its theme park, and the Shanghai Shendi Group already is in bed with local politicians.

An outsider has about a 0% chance of winning a lawsuit in China. (Not that I have any knowledge of this sort of thing actually happening. )

China would view this sort of thing as good for it's long-term business, a cautionary tale to anyone who wants to tangle with them. ("In our country, you better do things our way.")

The Chinese business culture is not like the Western business culture. They play by a different set of rules.

Correct, China would not outright 'nationalize' the assets their partners would assert 'breach of contract' and lock them out. Fellowes, Chrysler and Audi have all been on the short end of this particular stick,

Nationalization comes from as nearly ALL the large companies in China have close ties with the PLA and usually one or more of the so called 'managing directors' are General Officer's in the PLA in many cases NOT retired.

Business in China is conducted between family and friends it's not governed by the rule of law as it is in the west, It's all who you know and who you can influence and laws are malleable to say the least.

 

[ford91exploder]

What specific situations are you referring to?

Here's are stories to get you started, I don't want to hijack the thread

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/chi...iant-brought-to-its-knees-in-china-54204.html

http://www.unfinishedman.com/chines...-clones-of-audi-a4-infiniti-ex-and-vw-tiguan/

http://www.carnewschina.com/2012/04/27/jeep-cherokee-is-still-in-production-in-china/

Also google CHONDA - China has copied and sells nearly all of Honda's small engines and ALL the parts are bolt on compatible, As soon as Honda gets one shut down it reopens the next day with 'new' ownership.

And to @ParentsOf4 's point FIAT is trying to set up ANOTHER 'joint venture' guess some companies NEVER learn.

 

[flynnibus]

Here's are stories to get you started, I don't want to hijack the thread

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/chi...iant-brought-to-its-knees-in-china-54204.html

http://www.unfinishedman.com/chines...-clones-of-audi-a4-infiniti-ex-and-vw-tiguan/

http://www.carnewschina.com/2012/04/27/jeep-cherokee-is-still-in-production-in-china/

Also google CHONDA - China has copied and sells nearly all of Honda's small engines and ALL the parts are bolt on compatible, As soon as Honda gets one shut down it reopens the next day with 'new' ownership.

And to @ParentsOf4 's point FIAT is trying to set up ANOTHER 'joint venture' guess some companies NEVER learn.

And none of those are situations including nationalization. Just the fellows case includes the joint partner strong arming the US partner in a pressured take-over. The Jeep story is one of them bailing (which btw, they are coming back) and the audi one is cloning.

 

[RandySavage]

Is it correct when it says Shanghai Disneyland park will be 225 acres? If so, woah. Biggest DL style park ever.

Just went to Google Maps Acreage Calculator to confirm it. The park-dedicated area (excluding visitor parking, DisneyTown and the hotel expansion pad adjacent to entrance) is indeed around 225 acres. A significant chunk of that total is for back-of-house facilities, fireworks launch pads, etc., not to mention expansion pads, but the space allocated could eventually make it among the biggest castle parks.

 

[ford91exploder]

And none of those are situations including nationalization. Just the fellows case includes the joint partner strong arming the US partner in a pressured take-over. The Jeep story is one of them bailing (which btw, they are coming back) and the audi one is cloning.

One thing you NEED to remember about ANY big business in based in China is that it's not so silent partner IS the Chinese government, So while it's not Latin American style nationalization, Nothing like that happens without the approval of the Chinese government,

In all three cases the local partners expropriated the property of the western partner, Jeep bailed because they could not sell any cars because their partner was competing with their own product, Same case with Audi etc. The clones are 'pin compatible' with the originals. ie any part on the original can be replaced with one from the Chinese copy.

The Chinese have NO concept of individual ownership of intellectual property and they have not since their civilization was founded. If someone in a village discovered how to make a better farm implement and began to sell it, Soon the entire VILLAGE was making and selling the implement and the inventor TAUGHT the rest of the village to make the improved tool.

China is simply DIFFERENT and most American's do not realize just HOW different the Chinese are.

I greatly admire the Chinese because they do what is best for China, Not the silly kumbaya stuff the West mucks about with.

 

[tribbleorlfl]

A good article about a different kind of theme park that has gained some traction around the world.

I don't know whether to be impressed by the execution of a (not particularly new) concept, or to be worried about its goody-goody, subliminal messages.

Interesting, I read that and thought that sounded just like "Wannado City" that was at the Sawgrass mall down in Miami. Then I read further and saw that Wannado was started by one of the Co-founders of KidZania, hence the similar setup.

 

[Mike S]

Just went to Google Maps Acreage Calculator to confirm it. The park-dedicated area (excluding visitor parking, DisneyTown and the hotel expansion pad adjacent to entrance) is indeed around 225 acres. A significant chunk of that total is for back-of-house facilities, fireworks launch pads, etc., not to mention expansion pads, but the space allocated could eventually make it among the biggest castle parks.

The current biggest is DLP which is 140 acres so I think Shanghai might beat it from day one with the areas accessible to guests.

 

[WDWFigment]

Oh, congrats to @WDWFigment. as he apparently completed the WDW Marathon with no training whatsoever.

The man does it all!!!

Thanks to you and @the.dreamfinder for the congrats!

If you think I can 'do it all', well...you should have seen me trying to hobble around Epcot yesterday. I fully intended upon training when I registered eons ago, but it's been a busy few months. I would have dropped the race, but for the non-refundable entry fee.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Meanwhile in Tokyo...
http://www.themeparkinsider.com/flu...n=Feed:+ThemeParkInsider+(Theme+Park+Insider)

 

[WDW1974]

Spirited Tuesday Quickees:

So, NBC (among others) aren't going to show the cover of Charlie Hebdo due to 'cultural sensitivity' ... I'm sorry to our language filters and all, but that is BS of the highest order ... freaking cowards giving into fundamentalists and terrorists.

Anyone who thinks that WDW isn't always looking to go cheap should compare the recent Frozen offerings with those in Anaheim. Of course, then you could compare Anaheim's to Tokyo's to see how things should really be done.

I admit it: all these TV commercials are making me want to go see The Lion King yet again.

Yesterday's Spirited Disaster of the Day: a baby (6-8 inch) snake under the bed ... yes, really ... and , please, no fanboi jokes here (heard them all already!) And people really think FL is just this amazing wonderland to live in ... crazy.

Sorry to hear that Gary Buchanan is no longer employed by TWDC. For all the 'Crazy Gary' comments, the man is a real professional that bled pixie dust. I wish him nothing but the best in his future endeavors. He's probably much better off without the Mouse, even if leaving hurts.

Did something cancel or delay yesterday's FoF parade at MK? I ask because I apparently had booked a FP for it, when I thought I'd be up there this week, and was sent a notification saying it was not available.

Two things on that: 1.) I wanted to see exactly whether it is ever 'worth' FPing a parade and; 2.) I was offered a replacement anytime FP for mostly Fantasyland experience including meeting Anna and Elsa and riding Peter Pan's Flight at anytime post 2:45 p.m.

Ohio State and Urban Meyer winning the NCAA championship. Yeah, I sorta double puked on that one.

 

[WDW1974]

Would that E-Ticket happen to be a flume ride?

Do not ask me questions that you know I don't intend to answer.

Speaking of which, you owe me an email!

 

[WildcatDen]

near perfect rack.

Somewhere, hidden, there has to be a punch line. . .

 

[WDW1974]

Having crunched the numbers (don't I always ), it's clear that corporate Disney has shifted from simply charging a premium for a brand name to stooping to the type of unscrupulous pricing tactics prevalent in the timeshare industry.

This is a recent development, only happening in the last few years.

The pricing tactics may have changed, but the sell at any cost 'tude has been there for at least 15 years. It was about that long ago when my brother and I took a tour at the BW (they were selling Beach Club which hadn't opened yet) and in those days they actually gave a free lunch for two at Spoodles after the tour.

When I made it clear to Bruce (who claimed he sold the very first DVC at OKW, no likely BS sales story there) that we just wanted to see the model, get the sales materials and get our free lunch, he became borderline belligerent turning red and asking why anyone would take a tour just 'for a free lunch'' ... well, gee, maybe it's because you offered that in order to waste our time viewing your product.

He then left us in the room to get the meal voucher for 20 minutes (I kid you not, I had to go interrupt another sales presentation to demand our voucher, which definitely put the other tour folks in a less than wanting to buy mood.)

The direct-from-Disney price at many "Classic" DVC resorts (e.g. Beach Club Villas, Boardwalk Villas, Villas at the Wilderness Lodge) has increased by roughly 40% since 2012 while the starting price for the 2 new resorts (i.e. Villas at the Grand Floridian and Polynesian Villas and Bungalows) is at a crazy level.

Even worse, the starting price for the annual Maintenance Fees along with the points-per-night requirements at the 2 newest DVC resorts means that it will take at least decades for most DVC purchasers to reach the magical "break-even point"; the point at which DVC starts saving money.

Switch your stays to "lesser" Deluxe Resorts such Yacht & Beach Club, Boardwalk Inn, Animal Kingdom Lodge, or Wilderness Lodge, and most of you will never see any savings from a DVC purchased directly from Disney.

I normally avoid offering financial advice to strangers but DVC prices have gotten so out of hand that I feel no qualms about writing the following:

Do not buy DVC directly from Disney if your goal is to save money!

Agreed.

 

[wogwog]

Spirited Tuesday Quickees:

So, NBC (among others) aren't going to show the cover of Charlie Hebdo due to 'cultural sensitivity' ... I'm sorry to our language filters and all, but that is bull$hit of the highest order ... freaking cowards giving into fundamentalists and terrorists.

Anyone who thinks that WDW isn't always looking to go cheap should compare the recent Frozen offerings with those in Anaheim. Of course, then you could compare Anaheim's to Tokyo's to see how things should really be done.

I admit it: all these TV commercials are making me want to go see The Lion King yet again.

Yesterday's Spirited Disaster of the Day: a baby (6-8 inch) snake under the bed ... yes, really ... and , please, no fanboi jokes here (heard them all already!) And people really think FL is just this amazing wonderland to live in ... crazy.

Sorry to hear that Gary Buchanan is no longer employed by TWDC. For all the 'Crazy Gary' comments, the man is a real professional that bled pixie dust. I wish him nothing but the best in his future endeavors. He's probably much better off without the Mouse, even if leaving hurts.

Did something cancel or delay yesterday's FoF parade at MK? I ask because I apparently had booked a FP for it, when I thought I'd be up there this week, and was sent a notification saying it was not available.

Two things on that: 1.) I wanted to see exactly whether it is ever 'worth' FPing a parade and; 2.) I was offered a replacement anytime FP for mostly Fantasyland experience including meeting Anna and Elsa and riding Peter Pan's Flight at anytime post 2:45 p.m.

Ohio State and Urban Meyer winning the NCAA championship. Yeah, I sorta double puked on that one.

Yesterday we had rain in Windermere (borders Disney) all afternoon and most of the evening. I would doubt FoF happened.

 

[WDW1974]

@WDW1974 what are your thoughts on the new Poly bungalows? Will you be staying in one? The price seems a bit stiff no?

I put a post on that thread. But I am not impressed. They will be nice enough, I'm sure. But it isn't like DVC has improved its product as far as design, size, materials used, furniture etc with each new resort. Just look at the size of a studio at OKW if you need to know what direction Disney has gone in. Or take a look at the plain white plates at the DAK Lodge Villas because guests allegedly stole the nice themed plates (that we saw for sale as Cast Connection).

I find all Disney resort pricing to largely be in a range that starts at absurd and travels a short way to obscene. Are these priced any more crazy than $250 a night for Pop Century or $900 for a Grand Flo room at Christmas? I don't know. I do know the ONLY way I stay at any WDW resort now is with DVC points or a 50/60% cast discount during value season, so it's pretty obvious how I feel about pricing.

The bigger picture is what I talked about in the 8th Wonder thread and that is Disney's plans to remove more deluxe resort (and, possibly, moderate) inventory and convert it into timeshare. That simply tells you two things: 1.) Their pricing model no longer works and they can't fill rooms at those rates; and 2.) They are looking for a fast cash-grab that looks good in those earnings reports and covers other shortcomings.

 

[tissandtully]

The pricing tactics may have changed, but the sell at any cost 'tude has been there for at least 15 years. It was about that long ago when my brother and I took a tour at the BW (they were selling Beach Club which hadn't opened yet) and in those days they actually gave a free lunch for two at Spoodles after the tour.

When I made it clear to Bruce (who claimed he sold the very first DVC at OKW, no likely BS sales story there) that we just wanted to see the model, get the sales materials and get our free lunch, he became borderline belligerent turning red and asking why anyone would take a tour just 'for a free lunch'' ... well, gee, maybe it's because you offered that in order to waste our time viewing your product.

He then left us in the room to get the meal voucher for 20 minutes (I kid you not, I had to go interrupt another sales presentation to demand our voucher, which definitely put the other tour folks in a less than wanting to buy mood.)



Agreed.

But 15 years ago would have been a great time to buy DVC. I admit, I may have been taken by DVC, but, you live and learn, if I add more points, I'll do resale all the way.

 

[rle4lunch]

Spirited Christmas/Holiday Musings III:

Let's talk crowds. Real crowds. Not people who went to EPCOT today and swear it's the busiest they have ever seen and, therefore, it is actually ... you know ... busy.

I said after my nightmarish October visit that I'm done visiting that month because Disney and UNI have made it so popular that it is not at all pleasant to visit. I'm done, for now, with Food and Wine and HHNs. Having crazy crowds and/or wretched weather just don't make me feel like I want to visit.

Well, thankfully, the first few weeks in December are still relatively uncrowded. No, the parks are not dead as they were in the 70s, 80s and 90s during that period. But they are close.

Largely, we had no waits. One wait of 30 minutes since they ruined PotC (an attraction that needs closing for a year for a top to bottom redo) with FP PLUS not loading the back row on the boats due to Legal giving them the finger about the finger (really!), a few waits of close to that for SDMT (Angie agrees with me that it is a nice D-Ticket) and that's it.

The only park that ever felt crowded was MK on a Saturday night (that is the result of having the park close at 7 four nights a week for the hard ticket party). The other parks didn't even approach moderate crowd levels, except perhaps EPCOT on a Saturday night with Whoopi Goldberg in the house for the story of Baby Jesus Plus Dining Packages.

BUT ... if Disney felt uncrowded, then you should have spent Dec. 10th at UNI/IOA. They were empty. Completely. In a way that will have the Parkscope Bois wetting their keyboards. Every attraction was a walk-on. We arrived later than we wanted (about 10:30) and stayed until the parks closed at 7. No one was there. The longest posted wait was for Forbidden Journey (20 minutes) and everything else including Gringotts generally were listed at 10. If you have been to UNI and IOA, then you know that just walking most of those queues to load can take you 10 minutes. And that is what we encountered on everything in both parks. It was one of my best days ever at UNI/IOA as it was also about 68, sunny and California-like. I can't recall the last time I had a day like that at UNI's parks and it was great, especially since it was only Angie's second visit to that resort ever.

BTW, I don't extrapolate anything about the various healths of the business at the respective resorts. I'm just telling it like it was ... WDW was uncrowded but no park was close to empty, even the mess undergoing a giant hatactomy. Both UNI parks were **** near empty on the tenth.

That's the time when my family and I always go to Orlando, 1st week of December. 4 day hopper at WDW and 1 day in the middle at UNI (preferably Wednesday), UNI was absolutely dead, walk on everything, even in Pottersville, that's what I said, POTTERSVILLE. However, the 'deadness' shows at UNI, especially with food service. Most of the breakfast food that we bought last time we were there was stale or cold, and felt like it was made at 4am (it was around 830am when we had breakfast). Customer service at UNI is less than stellar as well.

 

[71jason]

Passport to Dreams has a really good retrospective on the bad stuff that happened this year (NOS, Poly waterfall, Maelstrom) and that previous loss of faith that occurred back in the late 90s.
http://passport2dreams.blogspot.com/2015/01/notes-on-time-that-was-not-happy.html

Solid article, but I think the best part is buried in the EPCOT section ... by dumbing down the educational aspects of EPCOT Center, WDW makes them seem less important. Because WDW treats learning like a joke, guests do the same. (Why there's less litter in a park kept spotless.) As I said, agreed with the rest, even if it's been said 100 times elsewhere, but I thought this was a novel, valid point.

 

[WDW1974]

Id really like to see how their sales people would react to this type of math being brought up while theyre making their pitch. How would they counter that? Probly just resort to fail safe tactics and show you a picture of grandpa on Dumbo and offer you a free cup cake

I'd love to see it. I thought someone here commented about seeing that happen on a DCL voyage recently ...
My take is they'd not know how to deal with it, like if Bob Iger had to answer a question he didn't know was coming ... it would be like a naked person running thru a church during a service (not that I'd know what that's like, just thought the analogy worked!)

DVC's big push in sales has always been based on if you were to pay rack rate for the same DVC accommodations every year with prices going up and no discounting whatsoever. Oh, and that still is based on paying it all upfront. That has been their spiel for decades now on why DVC is a value. And, yes, based on that set of 'what ifs', it is. ... It's just a crazy scenario because 99% of the people would never be going for 1 and 2 bedroom villas and/or paying rack rate and/or doing it annually or multiple times a year. ... As soon as you say something like 'well, what if I don't need more than a regular room at the WL and I can get the room at 40-60% off rack rate?' they want nothing to do with you or they become nasty.

 

[WDW1974]

Shanghai Disneyland in the context of large government spending projects in China. Another reminder this is CHINA'S resort, not Disney's.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/13/b...-projects-to-make-great-wall-feel-small-.html

That's a good read on what China does well: BUILD, BUILD and BUILD BIG!

I do worry about where it all is going. The whole Ghost City deal isn't a joke. You can't just build it and hope they will come. Doesn't work that way. But since I wish to work there again, that's really all I intend to say about this.