A Spirited Perfect Ten

Bolna

Well-Known Member
If a theme park needs an established brand ahead of it then themed entertainment really cannot work beyond being a brand experience that rehashes what is already known and established in other, more legitimate media.

I don't think that themed entertainment needs an established brand in order to work. However, I think themed entertainment is something that needs to connect with the people on an emotional level.

Disney is in the business of story telling through their films - and those stories are what help to make that emotional connection. I think this is why so many people love the MK most of all the parks at WDW as Fantasyland is the home of the stories they know from Disney movies.

If an audience is not familiar with those stories, it is far more difficult to connect with the audience on that emotional level.
 

Darth Sidious

Authentically Disney Distinctly Chinese
But that's just it. He won't ... maybe that's why he paid the $800 million in China!

American corps don't play by the rules that citizens do or that mom and pop business owners do. Now, I know someone will come in and talk laws and regulations and how they must follow them and all I'll hear is the teacher talking to Charlie Brown!

A few months ago in a Spirited thread vIDK I mentioned this and I'll mention it again... Right or wrong you don't do business in China without doing things people in the US will find immoral or possibly illegal. Ask any of the banks how many relatives of Chinese officials they've had to hire to lofty salaries as one example.
 

JediMasterMatt

Well-Known Member
This makes me question whether or not things were in good condition simply because execs have been in WDW over the last month.

I thought the overall state of the resort in January was pretty much status quo from an operational perspective when compared to my visits in recent years. Some things better (Dinosaur, Festival of the Lion King, & IllumiNations pop to mind), some things worse (Pirates continues it freefall and Space Mountain already has many of the sound and lighting "enhancements" from the last refurb not working). The only attraction that seems to hold a consistent high level of quality from year to year is Haunted Mansion. Splash was down in January but was as good as it has been in quite a while in November; but, that was after many years of being in poor shape.

Of course we could also talk about the "minusing" of things like the poor Polynesian with its spacious new lobby and wonderful beach side views of the Seven Seas Lagoon (if you are in a bungalow).

While I love construction walls (I really do, as they really are sign of improvement/change), I hate that some of the construction walls go up and stay up for varying lengths depending on the budgets and operational decisions (cough Hub refurb). There doesn't seem to the same level of urgency to get on with the show that there once was in decades pasts.

Also, the shuttering of things (attractions, restaurants, etc) and no talk of immediate replacement is an ever increasing factor. It use to be where one "seasonal" shutter would put up red flags. Now, things get closed and there is no guarantee that any sign of life is on the horizon - other than vague promises.

My biggest concern in my yearly visits is what I see happening to the poor Cast Members morale. Their performance has really been impacted. In my conversations with them, I have consistently found they are beat down by the ever increasing crowds combined with the ever increasing displeasure with MM+. It's this morale that I secretly wonder is also contributing to overall cleanliness and maintenance. Well, that and budget cuts. Gotta pay the price for the One Band to Rule Them All.

So, for me at least. WDW is still the same as it has been for the last several years. Same decline. Some signs of bright spots on the horizon; but, no sign of any impending relief to the systemic issues causing the decline. If the bright spots on the horizon come and do nothing more than bring more guests to the property, then I'm afraid the slide will continue.
 

WildcatDen

Well-Known Member
I think this thread can at times, become a dumping ground for those too lazy to start a new thread. Spirit has his news, others stay on topic, and then the tangents fly in and out like Monkeys from Garths butt. Now, I am not claiming innocence as I can some times play in that sandbox as well.

So, let's try and stay on topic.

Carmel Corn: Fiddle Faddle, Crunch N Munch, or Poppycock (funny word)?
 

stlphil

Well-Known Member
What a frigid and utterly bizarre day in the Disney UNIverse. Truly.

I know I said recently that I wasn't going to talk about China for a while, for personal reasons (nothing Disney related), but when Bob Iger uses his wife's position as a board member at the Huffington Post to get a story (an Op-Ed at that) pulled from the site because of ... well, I'll talk about my suspicions in a bit, I just have to pipe in.

Censorship makes me sick. You know how I get when Marcia takes away my fanboi jokes!

First, although I wouldn't claim the HuffPo is a great news outlet by any means, this is a prime example of how powerful people influence the media and what you get to read about and see. And it happens every day, all across this country.

Second, it was confirmed to me that Willow Bay, indeed, had the story pulled (thru an intermediary, naturally, as one must have a fall person). That is sickening beyond belief because not only does she have a Weatherman for a husband, but she is head of the prestigious USC Annenberg School of Journalism (where two nights ago she conducted a seminar with none other than her husband as the guest).

One must wonder what exactly was so damaging to Bob/Disney's dealings in China that he was willing to put his wife's reputation and position on the line and take on a member of the Redstone family to do it. People outside of the media may not understand, but the Redstone family controls/owns the majority of the Viacom and CBS corps. and will do so for the next two generations unless they decide to sell. Bob Iger is simply Disney's highest manager, a CEO who owns nothing but a chunk of stock to make sure his family will live lavishly for the next two generations. That's a big difference.

So, what exactly was it that Bob doesn't want you or, much more likely, Wall Street analysts to read so badly?

I have a few theories (not in any particular order):

1.) There's been a lot of talk about Viacom being acquired by other companies (again, this can not happen without Redstone family approval, no matter the wishes of stockholders, Wall Street or anyone else). What if Viacom is pursuing one of Disney's BRANDS? Recall all the talk when Disney was just looking into shopping a portion of P&R around. What if Viacom wants ESPN or Marvel?;

2.) The story deftly mentions the huge issue of graft and how the Communist Party is dealing with it (hint: lots of firing squads). It is on the news in China nightly and they have even gone after their own top companies and celebrities (the NYT had a story on this last week). Now, where did that $800 million dollars go because it sure didn't go into added attractions for SDL. Just to be clear: Iger is lying when he says so.;

3.) Disney isn't known much on the mainland and Bob doesn't want people to know back home that no one there is clamoring for Mickey Mouse or Buzz Lightyear or even The Sheep from Mary Poppins (yes, Disney announced a little bit about SDL's Garden of the 12 Friends last Friday and completely buried it in the USA).;

4.) Is it just a matter of Bob's pride being hurt because Disney, as the author pointed out, may have been in Hong Kong longer than the company has had theme parks, yet Viacom properties like Spongebob and Dora are far more widely seen on children and their clothing, toys etc. That's in an area that was a British colony when plans for HKDL started. An area where Disney has been very much in the public eye. The biggest film at the box office in the mainland last year? Not Frozen. Not a Disney release. Not a Chinese film. But Paramount's Transformers (again, owned by Viacom). It was also No. 1 in HK, by the way. I believe it is the top grossing film of all-time in the mainland, but I'm too lazy to check right now;

5.)Is it just CEO jealousy and pettiness? Viacom was the first western media company to gain a foothold in the mainland when China began opening itself up. The Chinese love characters like Sumner Redstone. They don't like tightly wound American business suits like Bob Iger. (I know a bit more about this subject because I have worked and lived over there).

I don't know why the column was pulled. My source doesn't either. Something really bothered Bob (which puts a huge smile on my face because any discomfort brought to that man sorta makes me happy!) I've read it over a few times and really am not sure what exactly it was because, frankly, there is so much more to Disney's dealings over there that could be said and wasn't.

But if I were Bob, I sure as hell wouldn't get into a urinating contest with a member of that family, let alone while using his wife's position to do so. Stuff like that is just asking for trouble. If I were one of the kewl kids here, I might put a popcorn chomping smiley up. But I'm not. But I think something big started today. Very big.
If I was a USC alumnus, I would be demanding that the school investigate this episode. This is so anti-journalistic that if Ms. Bay was found to have any role in getting these articles removed I don't see how she could pretend to head a school of "journalism" going forward.
 

bhg469

Well-Known Member
I think this thread can at times, become a dumping ground for those too lazy to start a new thread. Spirit has his news, others stay on topic, and then the tangents fly in and out like Monkeys from Garths butt. Now, I am not claiming innocence as I can some times play in that sandbox as well.

So, let's try and stay on topic.

Carmel Corn: Fiddle Faddle, Crunch N Munch, or Poppycock (funny word)?
Chocolate chex mix....
 

BrerJon

Well-Known Member
Well....I reckon that article got Bob's attention.
He mad.

Speaking of Bob, I just watched Big Hero 6... am I the only one that thinks there's a resemblance between the two business guys in the movie and a couple of friends of ours?

OOWBwCv.png
 

BrerJon

Well-Known Member
The idea of an incredible expensive short trip was something very uncommon in the 1990s. People were frugal with their vacation money and rather took longer, less expensive vacations. Seems like they have not learned enough from their mistakes in Europe.

This hits the nail on the head. In the USA, many people only get a couple of weeks a year for vacations so they splurge and spend a ton, but in countries where you might have five or six weeks off, vacation money has to go further so more frequent, cheaper adventures are the order of the day.

This isn't a concern if you're building a single day theme park, like Disneyland Anaheim or Parc Asterix, but if you're basing your business model on week long stays with hotel rooms and several days of expenditure factored in, as is the case in WDW, DLP, and eventually SDL, you need to know precisely what the spending patterns of your guests are, and I do wonder how much they've analysed Chinese behaviour in detail.
 

Rodan75

Well-Known Member
They did more than just pull the hit piece. They pulled all of his articles and he was booted out the door. I think his credentials may have been suspect.

He only had 4 articles; 2 bashing TWDC/Iger and 2 about the Hollywood Hotel controversy. The first, just like the second TWDC/Iger article started as a news item and then moved to the blog. They were obviously targeted toward a very specific audience in the Hollywood community. If he intended them to go into the Wall Street community he would have tagged them with $DIS so they would have been picked up by all of the analyst sites (which would have done more damage).
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
This hits the nail on the head. In the USA, many people only get a couple of weeks a year for vacations so they splurge and spend a ton, but in countries where you might have five or six weeks off, vacation money has to go further so more frequent, cheaper adventures are the order of the day.

This isn't a concern if you're building a single day theme park, like Disneyland Anaheim or Parc Asterix, but if you're basing your business model on week long stays with hotel rooms and several days of expenditure factored in, as is the case in WDW, DLP, and eventually SDL, you need to know precisely what the spending patterns of your guests are, and I do wonder how much they've analysed Chinese behaviour in detail.

In those 'other countries' vacation is paid even CHINA mandates two weeks paid vacation, It's not much of a respite for those workers at Foxconn etc but it's some. Conversely in the US we have business 'leaders' saying even two weeks UNPAID vacation will bankrupt them,

Funny it does not seem to bankrupt outfits like Siemens (in EU 4-6 weeks paid vacation) who are busy buying american companies.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
He only had 4 articles; 2 bashing TWDC/Iger and 2 about the Hollywood Hotel controversy. The first, just like the second TWDC/Iger article started as a news item and then moved to the blog. They were obviously targeted toward a very specific audience in the Hollywood community. If he intended them to go into the Wall Street community he would have tagged them with $DIS so they would have been picked up by all of the analyst sites (which would have done more damage).

Don't worry the REAL analysts read stuff like the HuffPo, It's only the hacks who read only WSJ/IBD and the articles on the bloomberg terminal. Because it's places like the HuffPo where the cracks start showing up in large organizations.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
I think so many Americans simply fall into grouping Asian nations together and not realizing how different things can be. Even in China ... or should I say the four nation-states that make up China (mainland, Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan).

But, yes, even back in the 70s, the Japanese loved Disney and were very familiar with the IP. When TDL opened it was even more Americanized than it is today. Much more English in the attractions and only one restaurant that served local cuisine.

China, in some ways, might as well be Mars or Uranus. Films weren't shown for many years. There is no Disney Channel (something Bob bungled badly in the negotiations and wanted desperately). The Disney Store is making its debut in Shanghai later this year, but the characters are not particularly known or loved.

I've spent many days at HKDL and watched people. Many seem to know the characters, but many do not. Even ones that have been around longer than I have!

The proper way to build a market is to go in slowly and make yourself known on a much smaller level. For almost a decade now, Disney has run ads over in China to educated people on what a Disney park is and how you're supposed to enjoy it.

The disconnect is still there. And if it's in HK, well, you d@mn well know it's in Shanghai.

It's absolutely amazing the level of cultural ignorance at TWDC, I've spent time in China (for business) and it might as well be an alien civilization - my father also spent time there (also for business) and before first trip basically told me to leave my assumptions behind when I boarded the plane.

Disney would have done better to license rights from Sanrio and opened a 'Hello Kitty' park. You can't go anywhere in China and not see the cute cat face.
 

Lee

Adventurer
Don't worry the REAL analysts read stuff like the HuffPo, It's only the hacks who read only WSJ/IBD and the articles on the bloomberg terminal. Because it's places like the HuffPo where the cracks start showing up in large organizations.
Yes.
The first Disney article certainly reached a wide audience, both in Hollywood and on Wall Street.

Clearly, the message was getting through, and was hitting close to home. Otherwise they (Bob with an assist from Willow) wouldn't have killed it and the author's others.

This is going to get good...
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
I wouldn't call the tone of that article "journalism". It's op ed, or at best "business analysis", but it is certainly not written (nor do I get the impression the author intended it) to be a factual report.

The "story", to me, is why the article got pulled, and the circumstances involved. And, it would be extremely interesting to find that out.

In short it was a hit piece by a competitor and most recognized it as such, Iger believes in a 1984 style 'Memory Hole' so he thought having the article pulled would make it 'go away'.

If he had left it alone it would have been forgotten, The act of pulling it MADE it a story in itself and as most of us know once it's on the internet it NEVER goes away. Now everyone in the entertainment industry and the 'Street are asking WHY was it pulled. I think like @WDW1974 noted something big just started.
 

Rodan75

Well-Known Member
What a frigid and utterly bizarre day in the Disney UNIverse. Truly.

I know I said recently that I wasn't going to talk about China for a while, for personal reasons (nothing Disney related), but when Bob Iger uses his wife's position as a board member at the Huffington Post to get a story (an Op-Ed at that) pulled from the site because of ... well, I'll talk about my suspicions in a bit, I just have to pipe in.

Censorship makes me sick. You know how I get when Marcia takes away my fanboi jokes!

First, although I wouldn't claim the HuffPo is a great news outlet by any means, this is a prime example of how powerful people influence the media and what you get to read about and see. And it happens every day, all across this country.

Second, it was confirmed to me that Willow Bay, indeed, had the story pulled (thru an intermediary, naturally, as one must have a fall person). That is sickening beyond belief because not only does she have a Weatherman for a husband, but she is head of the prestigious USC Annenberg School of Journalism (where two nights ago she conducted a seminar with none other than her husband as the guest).

One must wonder what exactly was so damaging to Bob/Disney's dealings in China that he was willing to put his wife's reputation and position on the line and take on a member of the Redstone family to do it. People outside of the media may not understand, but the Redstone family controls/owns the majority of the Viacom and CBS corps. and will do so for the next two generations unless they decide to sell. Bob Iger is simply Disney's highest manager, a CEO who owns nothing but a chunk of stock to make sure his family will live lavishly for the next two generations. That's a big difference.

So, what exactly was it that Bob doesn't want you or, much more likely, Wall Street analysts to read so badly?

I have a few theories (not in any particular order):

1.) There's been a lot of talk about Viacom being acquired by other companies (again, this can not happen without Redstone family approval, no matter the wishes of stockholders, Wall Street or anyone else). What if Viacom is pursuing one of Disney's BRANDS? Recall all the talk when Disney was just looking into shopping a portion of P&R around. What if Viacom wants ESPN or Marvel?;

2.) The story deftly mentions the huge issue of graft and how the Communist Party is dealing with it (hint: lots of firing squads). It is on the news in China nightly and they have even gone after their own top companies and celebrities (the NYT had a story on this last week). Now, where did that $800 million dollars go because it sure didn't go into added attractions for SDL. Just to be clear: Iger is lying when he says so.;

3.) Disney isn't known much on the mainland and Bob doesn't want people to know back home that no one there is clamoring for Mickey Mouse or Buzz Lightyear or even The Sheep from Mary Poppins (yes, Disney announced a little bit about SDL's Garden of the 12 Friends last Friday and completely buried it in the USA).;

4.) Is it just a matter of Bob's pride being hurt because Disney, as the author pointed out, may have been in Hong Kong longer than the company has had theme parks, yet Viacom properties like Spongebob and Dora are far more widely seen on children and their clothing, toys etc. That's in an area that was a British colony when plans for HKDL started. An area where Disney has been very much in the public eye. The biggest film at the box office in the mainland last year? Not Frozen. Not a Disney release. Not a Chinese film. But Paramount's Transformers (again, owned by Viacom). It was also No. 1 in HK, by the way. I believe it is the top grossing film of all-time in the mainland, but I'm too lazy to check right now;

5.)Is it just CEO jealousy and pettiness? Viacom was the first western media company to gain a foothold in the mainland when China began opening itself up. The Chinese love characters like Sumner Redstone. They don't like tightly wound American business suits like Bob Iger. (I know a bit more about this subject because I have worked and lived over there).

I don't know why the column was pulled. My source doesn't either. Something really bothered Bob (which puts a huge smile on my face because any discomfort brought to that man sorta makes me happy!) I've read it over a few times and really am not sure what exactly it was because, frankly, there is so much more to Disney's dealings over there that could be said and wasn't.

But if I were Bob, I sure as hell wouldn't get into a urinating contest with a member of that family, let alone while using his wife's position to do so. Stuff like that is just asking for trouble. If I were one of the kewl kids here, I might put a popcorn chomping smiley up. But I'm not. But I think something big started today. Very big.

Wait...so you aren't curious as the the Redstone family stake in this incident...you are only concerned with Iger having the piece pulled? That seems unusually one-sided. I know you don't like Iger, but what was the author up to in his articles. Why was he picking a fight? Is he trying to damage Iger's job, or is advocating for a job for himself. Is he trying to make disney vulnerable to a take over?

The story is a lot bigger than why it got pulled, but you wrote a lot of words on that aspect only. Both parts are important, but it looks like Viacom threw the first punch...why?
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Well, I think they just about started to succeed with that education process here in Europe with regard to Disneyland Paris a few years ago. And they had a totally different background to work with: generations who grew up with Disney comics that are wildly popular in most of Europe. But I always felt that at DLP there was a disconnect, less enthusiasm. In recent years I have found that the atmosphere changed, mainly thanks to a new generation of CMs and guests who actually grew up with visiting DLP as kids.

I always thought that one of the reasons why Euro Disney had such difficulties in the beginning was because they did not take the way Europeans vacation into account. The idea of an incredible expensive short trip was something very uncommon in the 1990s. People were frugal with their vacation money and rather took longer, less expensive vacations. Seems like they have not learned enough from their mistakes in Europe.

Do you think it would have been more successful in Germany where there is an established market for theme parks, The choice of Paris always seemed a bit odd to me.
 

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