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A Spirited Perfect Ten

wogwog

Well-Known Member
Graphs are not (sit down for this and take your meds!) the answer for everything.

And, as I've said in response to this in other threads, you're only extrapolating continued increases in attendance based upon TEA numbers without taking into consideration other factors like:

1.) Every park including MK have HUGE areas that are dead and could contain large amounts of people if reopened or if new things were built on empty land. In other words, the capacity is there if properly utilized;

2.) Only the MK truly has major issues with overcrowding and this has been exacerbated by closing the other parks earlier, not adding reasons for people to chose them over MK, not properly utilizing all the space that is available (see #1);

3.) Adding parks largely takes Guests from other parks. Disney can build until they destroy all of the natural beauty that attracted Walt to the area to begin with, but it can't make Americans take 3-4 weeks to visit. So adding a gate isn't a smart financial move;

4.) The costs of adding a park and infrastructure that wouldn't be another 'half day' park would be at least $4-6 billion. On top of NGE and the recently funded projects, I don't see how that's financially feasible;

5.) By your thinking, WDW will simply wind up with the same problem after Gate 5 is open for awhile. Do you think they should then open sixth and seventh gates? Can you make any argument for why it's better to add new parks then add capacity at existing ones?

I just look at TDR where you have two extremely popular parks and no dead zones in either and constantly add new things to see and do. People spread out. It's not like WDW where Studios or FW or DAK are often empty while MK is wall to wall in many places. Of course, they also take crowd control seriously. WDW believes masking tape on the pavement and a handful of outnumbered CMs screaming while wielding the kind of flashlights you could park a 747 with are the answer.
Beware. Don't anger the Graph Master. I think I hear a graph being planned as I write. Never take a logical discussion to a graph fight. I used to go out the back door of my office to hide from my statistic people. They scare me. ;)

Seriously, the fastest operational cure is to keep the other parks open later. Getting Burbank to fund that plan is the big issue. I don't mean more up charge events in order to stay open longer hours.
 

djlaosc

Well-Known Member
paypal always gives you the full resume before you transfer the money.

And most stores always gives you the final quote before submitting the order (after you authorize paypal to make the charge)


I don't know if you've had this answered yet, but you do review it before purchasing. It will show the exact total amount.



Thank you both for replying.

I knew that it normally did, but it was just the phrasing on that website that slightly confused me. I logged in last night, and the price didn't change.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I'm not much of an armchair Imagineer but I believe the Magic Kingdom should get out of the parade and nighttime show business, and that a 5th theme park should be designed specifically to handle large crowds for parades and nighttime fireworks.

Purists will hate it but, operationally, I believe it's the direction the Magic Kingdom has to go.

Terrible idea. Just terrible.

Pyro and parades are part of what make a MK park just that. You might as well said take away the character meet-and-greet because they're too popular or stop serving burgers at the QSRs.

You been out in the sun too long this summer?:D
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I heard both Disneyland and WDW both used to have new daytime parades celebrating the parks anniversary. WDW hasn't done one since the 90's and Disneyland since 2005. Not a complaint, but I hope WDW will do something big for it's 50th but a little similar to the 100 Years Of Magic Celebration.

Often times WDW or DL would get new parades just 'because' ... it wasn't strictly an anniversary deal.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Graphs are not the answer for everything.


YesTheyAre.jpg



And, as I've said in response to this in other threads, you're only extrapolating continued increases in attendance based upon TEA numbers without taking into consideration other factors like:

1.) Every park including MK have HUGE areas that are dead and could contain large amounts of people if reopened or if new things were built on empty land. In other words, the capacity is there if properly utilized;

2.) Only the MK truly has major issues with overcrowding and this has been exacerbated by closing the other parks earlier, not adding reasons for people to chose them over MK, not properly utilizing all the space that is available (see #1);

3.) Adding parks largely takes Guests from other parks. Disney can build until they destroy all of the natural beauty that attracted Walt to the area to begin with, but it can't make Americans take 3-4 weeks to visit. So adding a gate isn't a smart financial move;

4.) The costs of adding a park and infrastructure that wouldn't be another 'half day' park would be at least $4-6 billion. On top of NGE and the recently funded projects, I don't see how that's financially feasible;

5.) By your thinking, WDW will simply wind up with the same problem after Gate 5 is open for awhile. Do you think they should then open sixth and seventh gates? Can you make any argument for why it's better to add new parks then add capacity at existing ones?

6.) You don't account for Disney Guests opting to cut further days from their trips to do UNI's parks or anything else (from Legoland to the O-Town Eye and all the new stuff over there on I-Drive).

I just look at TDR where you have two extremely popular parks and no dead zones in either and constantly add new things to see and do. People spread out. It's not like WDW where Studios or FW or DAK are often empty while MK is wall to wall in many places. Of course, they also take crowd control seriously. WDW believes masking tape on the pavement and a handful of outnumbered CMs screaming while wielding the kind of flashlights you could park a 747 with are the answer.

I really dont see Burbank dropping a boatload of coin to build a new gate in Orlando. I really dont. I think they need to add capacity first and foremost and get people away from MK. Of course, that will cost money and risks profit margin.

The fix theyre in today is because of constant entertainment cuts. Why is the world's foremost entertainment company so willing to cut it?
 

StageFrenzy

Well-Known Member
Principle of the matter. Having the bosses start exerting control over editorial content.

However, my principles say you shouldnt out people like that.
Yeah I get editorial control is a big deal and that business(sponsors) and editorial control should be separate. But that was a horrible story, my response pretty much was o_O:cautious::bored::hungover:. I don't think he was high or visible enough for me to care what or who he was doing. It's kind of like when they use current or former CM arrested in the news. It's not really news, it just makes headlines.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Yeah I get editorial control is a big deal and that business(sponsors) and editorial control should be separate. But that was a horrible story, my response pretty much was o_O:cautious::bored::hungover:. I don't think he was high or visible enough for me to care what or who he was doing. It's kind of like when they use current or former CM arrested in the news. It's not really news, it just makes headlines.

Exactly, it was horrible editorial judgement in the first place.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
TDR Observations:

I'm just going to do these in quick hits form, if anyone wants to know more, I can elaborate:

Thanks for popping in and welcome home! (that was sincere not a DVC greeting at WDW!)

-Tanabata Days is a short, little-known celebration for which TDR doesn't do a ton, but it's really cool to see so many guests come dressed in kimonos. Has a cool 'East Meets West' vibe; I have felt for a while that TDR is the most authentic slice of Japan (really) most tourists will get, but this little event is especially fascinating from an anthropological perspective.

-The summer shows in both parks are bat**** crazy with how much water they throw on the crowds, but they are a ton of nonsensical fun.

I've always wanted to go for Tanabata much like Chinese New Year's at HKDL and some of the special European holidays at DLP, but never have.

It's amazing to me how much detail from costumes for the characters to menus to merchandise that are created annually for these. While in the US, we get excited that DL actually went back to resort exclusive bags and soda cups for its 60th Anniversary!

-Stitch Encounter is going to be a flop, I think. Saw it twice and although I didn't understand it, it's pretty easy to read the audience and people should NOT be sitting in total silence like that in an interactive show. Maybe I just got bad crowds, but I'm guessing this has a shelf life of 5 years, tops. (Then again, maybe that's the plan...)

That's surprising since the Japanese have always loved Stitch. But I wasn't thrilled they were getting this either. It always generates laughter when I see it in Paris and Hong Kong.

-Not a big fan of the new Little Mermaid show. Then again, wasn't a fan of the old one. This one seems to take a tech-first approach that feels really awkward and disjointed.

Never saw the original, but it was always raved about by friends. Sorry to hear it wasn't good as it had a healthy budget.

-I'm going to miss StormRider. It's absurd, but it feels about right for Japan. Like Meet the World now, I'm betting this will grow a following over time, with young fans in 10 years wishing they experienced StormRider. Nemo in Port Discovery really bothers me, and I hope it doesn't result in any thematic changes to the port itself. Just stick it into the CWC as-is, change the marquee, and be done with it. Port Discovery is the weakest port, but turning it into Nemoland isn't the right fix.

It is the weakest land in the park and the ride just plain isn't very good. It's Sea World's Wild Arctic with slightly better effects but no kewl animal exhibits when you exit. I'm not saying that Nemo is the best solution here, but with everything else they are building, adding changing ... well, I get why this was done. Easy fix.

-I'm not going to miss any of the parts of Tomorrowland that are biting the dust. That area becoming Fantasyland is a fantastic decision, and I hope the placemaking is as good there as it is in Critter Country to give the park more "character."

-Refreshed Dreamlights is spectacular. It was already my favorite nighttime parade by a wide margin, but the enhanced floats take it to the next level. The IASW finale unit is especially impressive, and I video (at least the one I saw) really doesn't do it justice.

My favorite as well. I just love how much love they regularly give this. They could have done the same over the years with WDW's night parades, but never saw reason to I guess.

-Sindbad's Storybook Voyage is the most under-appreciated attraction in the Disneyverse.

It is one of my favorite attractions in the world. Just incredible ... and Compass of Your Heart just sticks in your head.

-Generally a bad time of year for weather with a lot of rain and humidity, but saw two of the most beautiful sunsets of my life there...while in Shinjuku and Minato.

-Crowds were generally light, so a good time to visit from that perspective.

-Still the best two Disney parks on the planet.

If you're curious about anything else, just ask.

Yes, you left out the most important thing: food. Try anything new? Anything really good or bad? And you can include your non-TDR meals if something stuck with you.

Oh, and did you talk to any locals about their feelings on all the new stuff coming and changes?[/QUOTE]
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
This. ToT was posted at 50 this evening--friends were on in less than 10. Touring Plan numbers are interesting, and offer good guidelines on what time of year to visit, but fall somewhere between TEA numbers and actual, hard data.

I've witnessed a LOT of wait inflation the past 2-3 years. ToT is a classic example where I've seen it listed at 30 minutes when no one is in the park and it winds up essentially being a walk-on. ... That's why wait times should only be one factor in determining how crowded a park really is. You just can't trust them much of the time.
 

spectromagic04

Well-Known Member
I've witnessed a LOT of wait inflation the past 2-3 years. ToT is a classic example where I've seen it listed at 30 minutes when no one is in the park and it winds up essentially being a walk-on. ... That's why wait times should only be one factor in determining how crowded a park really is. You just can't trust them much of the time.
During my June trip I experienced this multiple times especially with Mine Train. Wait times at night always had it at 60 minutes, but in reality we only waited 15-20 minutes.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It's every bit as anecdotal as wait times and hotel discounts, but the only "busy" week on I-4 and at my local tourist Publix was the week after Fourth of July. After a decade you get a feel for these things, it just doesn't feel busy this Summer.

Yup. I've picked up the same vibes often over the past few years as people rant about crazy crowds. I can't speak to this year. But I was up there last year for the Fourth (I might have even spent time with a pal of yours!) and I never felt it was crazy ... not on July 3rd at MK or July 4th at TPFKaTD-MGMS.

Since 2011, I've been up in February, March, April (multiple years), May, July, September (multiple years), October (multiple years) and December (multiple years).

BY FAR, the only time when I felt O-Town was largely packed was October. That month seems worse every year ... all the other visits (some around Spring Break, Easter, July 4th, Christmas season) just weren't that bad. The ONLY park in the city (sorry UNI fanbois) that was ever consistently busy (but not always uncomfortably so) was the MK.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It's interesting to think; what would a fifth park have to do, have to be, to truly compete with The Magic Kingdom?

It would have to be the MK. That's what I've learned from decades of visits and all my wasted online time. People want everything to be the MK now.

They didn't in the 80s when EPCOT Center was built for a more adult, more sophisticated Guest. They didn't in the late 80s when The Disney-MGM Studios opened and opened a view into TV and film production that couldn't be found beyond SoCa. ... But it's abundantly clear that Disney has so Walmarted its product and so conditioned its Guests that 'Disney='s Disney IP/BRANDing' that everything has to be filtered thru a MK spectrum. It's sad and telling.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Does he really have plans for 123 marvel films

Honestly? Who knows? He's talked of dozens of films. And a mind like that probably has dozens more in his brain.

I don't want to rip Marvel when they just put a smile on my face with an entertaining film ... but I just wish they'd lose the 'ego' (the same one Bob Iger showed at Sun Valley with his 'We're Marvel'' comment.)

When I see a film, I'm only thinking about THAT film. I don't want to ponder the next 11, which is why I didn't need the SECOND added scene in the credits (yeah, the one way at the end!)
 

Cosmic Commando

Well-Known Member
That's the problem.

WDW is suffering from a self-inflicted gaping wound. They caused it ... and it started a good 15 years ago (if not longer) by shuttering capacity at all parks and then shifting to a model that drove people to MK.

When WDW only had two, then three parks, they all did well, but MK wasn't packed while the others were often lightly attended. That is the circumstances today.

And think of how bad things would be if EPCOT didn't have three festivals a year to draw bodies in ... and even Studios has gotten a boost from two summers of Frozen and then the Lightacular at Christmas. Imagine if those things weren't happening. You'd have one total dead park, one park that was quite lightly attended and one that was packed daily from opening to close.
It's true that it's self-inflicted, but it's something real that they'll have to deal with at least through the 50th celebration, IMO. That's why many of us are hoping for a less flashy, high capacity attraction for Frontierland and I'm (naively) hoping for a walkway all around the Rivers of America to help handle crowds better.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Yup. I've picked up the same vibes often over the past few years as people rant about crazy crowds. I can't speak to this year. But I was up there last year for the Fourth (I might have even spent time with a pal of yours!) and I never felt it was crazy ... not on July 3rd at MK or July 4th at TPFKaTD-MGMS.

Since 2011, I've been up in February, March, April (multiple years), May, July, September (multiple years), October (multiple years) and December (multiple years).

BY FAR, the only time when I felt O-Town was largely packed was October. That month seems worse every year ... all the other visits (some around Spring Break, Easter, July 4th, Christmas season) just weren't that bad. The ONLY park in the city (sorry UNI fanbois) that was ever consistently busy (but not always uncomfortably so) was the MK.
You say that as if it's something we should be upset about. I for one prefer Uni not being as busy as MK, but that's just me ;)
 

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