A Spirited Perfect Ten

[Shaman]

At this point anything short of the equivalent of two Diagon Alley's would be a big disappointment, and even then we have to wait until 2022 or whenever when we can judge the final product. New Fantasyland looked great when it was announced and all the concept art came out, the reality was mediocre at best, so Disney has a habit of over-promising and under-delivering.

If we're talking about just design...I'd say what we got is actually better than the concept art. Visually. Originally, there was no Mine Train...just a bunch of M&Gs.


Problem has always been, and you're seeing it now: People have all these unrealistic expectations. Those expectations become Disney-hate, when reality doesn't come close to fantasy.

 

[wdisney9000]

At this point anything short of the equivalent of two Diagon Alley's would be a big disappointment, and even then we have to wait until 2022 or whenever when we can judge the final product. New Fantasyland looked great when it was announced and all the concept art came out, the reality was mediocre at best, so Disney has a habit of over-promising and under-delivering.

I just wonder if Disney respects the weight of the situation they have w/ Star Wars. Best case scenario, they go BIG and knock it out of the park and give us more than we would ever expect and steal all the headlines.

On the other hand (what I fear), is that the undoubted success of the Frozen overlay at Epcot (regardless of operational nightmares) may play a role in the company deciding that "sub par" is the new standard and that with Avatar Land still being fresh, a mediocre Star Wars Land will suffice.

Call me Fox Mulder because, "I want to believe." But the Scully in me will remain skeptical.

 

[mahnamahna101]

At this point anything short of the equivalent of two Diagon Alley's would be a big disappointment, and even then we have to wait until 2022 or whenever when we can judge the final product. New Fantasyland looked great when it was announced and all the concept art came out, the reality was mediocre at best, so Disney has a habit of over-promising and under-delivering.

Agreed... if the budget is $1.5 billion-$2 billion, there should be 2 Es included. Plus Bs/Cs/Ds to round it out.

If we're talking about just design...I'd say what we got is actually better than the concept art. Visually. Originally, there was no Mine Train...just a bunch of M&Gs.


Problem has always been, and you're seeing it now: People have all these unrealistic expectations. Those expectations become Disney-hate, when reality doesn't come close to fantasy.

New Fantasyland just feels half-finished. Plus, there was missed opportunities to increase capacity even more. Replacing SWSA with another dark ride instead of a lower-capacity M&G. Adding a second row for the Peter Pan RVs. Giving B&TB a people-eater to make things easier for SDMT. Possibly building a new Philharmagic theater on Main Street and using the old one for a new show. Considering it cost $425-450 million, NFL could have had some improvements.

Yes, it's better than the initial concept, but consider what Tokyo Disneyland is getting for NFL next to what MK got. Alice and B&TB Es, a revamped IASW, a few smaller attractions, enhancements to their current rides... and DisneySea is getting Arendale/Scandinavia. MK's NFL got a C and a D

 

[BrerJon]

Problem has always been, and you're seeing it now: People have all these unrealistic expectations. Those expectations become Disney-hate, when reality doesn't come close to fantasy.

But why should those expectations be unrealistic when Tokyo Disneyland delivers just as much and charges way less for tickets, when Universal delivers just as much for the same price... why is WDW so handicapped that doing work up to the standards of other parks is considered unrealistic?

 

[wdisney9000]

Problem has always been, and you're seeing it now: People have all these unrealistic expectations.

I dont have unrealistic expectations. Just the same expectations that the men and woman who created the parks and resorts decades ago had. The same expectations that gave us amazing, timeless, well thought out and properly placed attractions.

Those expectations become Disney-hate, when reality doesn't come close to fantasy.

Isnt creating that fantasy kinda the whole point? I dont expect miracles, but I expect more substance and less card board cut outs on a stick (looking at you Enchanted Tales w/ Belle)

 

[Shaman]

Y'all realize that opinions are not facts though right? I can say Tokyo's castle park is better than Orlando's. I can say the FLE was awesome....and? Even Imagineering has opinions, so does the BoD. Actions speak louder than words.

Everyone keeps paying The Mouse, regardless of perceptions.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Friendly reminder: the $800 million and the graft issue mustn't be conflated to be the same problem. Graft has likely been occurring at the SDL worksite well before the "expansion" funds were announced.

I made no mention of graft. But why does the term keep getting used? It's counter to this idea of the entire state apparatus acting in unison. Shouldn't it be embezzlement if that is the case?

Yes. And I believe you've expressed this view probably 28 times in the past few hundred pages. It has been noted.
And I don't even disagree one bit with the words above ... I just disagree with your implication.

I have not been just dropping in random comments. They have almost all be responses. If you don't want a response from someone then don't quote and directly comment.

except the resort in the bahamas is anything but your typical 'delays' situation...

I'm not going to say that Baha Mar is not a total mess. It is. But knowing about that project doesn't validate thoughts on a completely different project. It doesn't prove that cost overruns and delays on Shanghai Disney Resort are anything more than the stumbling that Disney does right here, but magnified in scale.

 

[flynnibus]

I'm not going to say that Baha Mar is not a total mess. It is. But knowing about that project doesn't validate thoughts on a completely different project. It doesn't prove that cost overruns and delays on Shanghai Disney Resort are anything more than the stumbling that Disney does right here, but magnified in scale.

The lines drawn to BM are around the politicking... not just construction issues. The construction issues are just instigators and points of friction... not the real point of interest.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The lines drawn to BM are around the politicking... not just construction issues. The construction issues are just instigators and points of friction... not the real point of interest.

But that would be the reverse of the story being told about Shanghai Disney Resort, where construction issues are the [deliberate] result of very personal friction and politicking. Even if the construction is now a serious point of friction, there isn't much being expressed publicly.

 

[flynnibus]

But that would be the reverse of the story being told about Shanghai Disney Resort, where construction issues are the [deliberate] result of very personal friction and politicking.

I didn't get that from any of the posts

 

[Funmeister]

Agreed... if the budget is $1.5 billion-$2 billion, there should be 2 Es included. Plus Bs/Cs/Ds to round it out.


New Fantasyland just feels half-finished. Plus, there was missed opportunities to increase capacity even more. Replacing SWSA with another dark ride instead of a lower-capacity M&G. Adding a second row for the Peter Pan RVs. Giving B&TB a people-eater to make things easier for SDMT. Possibly building a new Philharmagic theater on Main Street and using the old one for a new show. Considering it cost $425-450 million, NFL could have had some improvements.

Yes, it's better than the initial concept, but consider what Tokyo Disneyland is getting for NFL next to what MK got. Alice and B&TB Es, a revamped IASW, a few smaller attractions, enhancements to their current rides... and DisneySea is getting Arendale/Scandinavia. MK's NFL got a C and a D

Not to mention the expansion pad behind IASM and the Tangled Toilets.

At one point there was consideration (in the way early days) to build a Matterhorn clone.

 

[Mike S]

Not to mention the expansion pad behind IASM and the Tangled Toilets.

At one point there was consideration (in the way early days) to build a Matterhorn clone.

And then that idea moved to World Showcase. Then nothing........

 

[chiefs11]

Not to mention the expansion pad behind IASM and the Tangled Toilets.

At one point there was consideration (in the way early days) to build a Matterhorn clone.

And then that idea moved to World Showcase. Then nothing........

Maybe they could build the Matterhorn in the Germany pavilion. That's close enough, right? I mean, we got Frozen going into Norway, so why not?

 

[PhotoDave219]

Maybe they could build the Matterhorn in the Germany pavilion. That's close enough, right? I mean, we got Frozen going into Norway, so why not?

Better crowdsource that funding, because its not on the Board's agenda....

 

[ford91exploder]

There will be joy but will it be the kind that impresses the pixie dusters or the more discerning guests.... like me!

I suspect it will be Joy for the beancounters only...

 

[cdd89]

But why should those expectations be unrealistic when Tokyo Disneyland delivers just as much and charges way less for tickets, when Universal delivers just as much for the same price... why is WDW so handicapped that doing work up to the standards of other parks is considered unrealistic?

A few comments here...

1. TDR day-by-day tickets are an order of magnitude less expensive than WDW tickets, but Annual Passports are very much on par.
2. Although any one park offers far less at WDW than any equivalent park at TDR, many would take the view that there is more to do taken as a whole at WDW. (I don't agree; the parks offer a sense of place that WDW currently lacks, but for the many people who look at 'major attraction' counts without regard for quality, as well as people who take the view of 1 Park = 1 Day, that's the logical conclusion).
3. UOR delivers more attractions, but as the resort currently stands it's difficult to want to spend more than a day and a half there. The last thing UOR needs is more attractions, though that's where they're going and it seems to be working for them, so what do I know...

None of those points explain why WDW represents the worst value of any resort by any metric. (Sometimes I think I should just get the Epcot 4PM annual pass and wander around the resort, since between it and Animal Kingdom, it's all I enjoy there). I would actually have a very hard time justifying visits to WDW were it not for the fact that it's my second-closest Disney resort and it's easy to tie it in with work funded visits to the US East Coast.

 

[ChrisFL]

1. UOR delivers more attractions, but as the resort currently stands it's difficult to want to spend more than a day and a half there. The last thing UOR needs is more attractions, though that's where they're going and it seems to be working for them, so what do I know....

What do you think UOR should put in that isn't attractions? They're adding more hotels, a water park, new Citywalk experiences....

 

[PhotoDave219]

So I feel like looking at Studios numbers for a minute... since it looks like the BOD is gonna make it rain on DHS like it was dancing on a stage....

We have 8 days left in the quarter, I feel relatively comfortable enough to look at trends.

2015 is very similar to 2013 in the above average/below average distributions covering Q3FY13 and Q3FY15. Off peak crowds are better (now) and Peak crowds are up as well.

Numbers are up huge over the first six months of 2014 because the first six months of 2014 was an epic disaster. Jan-March was nearly identical in the above/below average distribution but 2015 showed more peak crowds and less average crowds.

The biggest change is in the quarter we're finishing up. April-June 2014 was indescribably bad, 2015 looks great by comparison. In reality, they're basically returning to 2013, only shifted slightly upwards. When the Studios were busy this year, they've been really really busy. They are growing in peak crowds from 2013. (I dont wanna put percentages/numbers out there because if DHS pulls 8 straight peak crowds, it will throw the numbers) You may thank Star Wars for 11 out of the 41 peak crowds at the Studios, YTD. Keeping Frozen seems to have stopped the bleeding.

Studios as a whole is still running below the park average. Overall, there may be some incremental growth but after looking at how the numbers from last year correlated to attendance numbers from TEA (hint: it didnt), we just dont have that data. Best I can as as an overall is that its very similar to 2013. There's a chance that there could be growth over 2013, clearly there is growth over 2014 but thats because of how far it fell.

Honestly, you can probably thank the show writers at DHS who came up with that sing-a-long over a weekend for saving the Studio's collective . (Maybe someone should give Michael Roddy a giant bonus in stock for this?)

Things are stablized for the moment. Hopefully the Board will do right by the park and grow it.

 

[wdisney9000]

So I feel like looking at Studios numbers for a minute... since it looks like the BOD is gonna make it rain on DHS like it was dancing on a stage....

We have 8 days left in the quarter, I feel relatively comfortable enough to look at trends.

2015 is very similar to 2013 in the above average/below average distributions covering Q3FY13 and Q3FY15. Off peak crowds are better (now) and Peak crowds are up as well.

Numbers are up huge over the first six months of 2014 because the first six months of 2014 was an epic disaster. Jan-March was nearly identical in the above/below average distribution but 2015 showed more peak crowds and less average crowds.

The biggest change is in the quarter we're finishing up. April-June 2014 was indescribably bad, 2015 looks great by comparison. In reality, they're basically returning to 2013, only shifted slightly upwards. When the Studios were busy this year, they've been really really busy. They are growing in peak crowds from 2013. (I dont wanna put percentages/numbers out there because if DHS pulls 8 straight peak crowds, it will throw the numbers) You may thank Star Wars for 11 out of the 41 peak crowds at the Studios, YTD. Keeping Frozen seems to have stopped the bleeding.

Studios as a whole is still running below the park average. Overall, there may be some incremental growth but after looking at how the numbers from last year correlated to attendance numbers from TEA (hint: it didnt), we just dont have that data. Best I can as as an overall is that its very similar to 2013. There's a chance that there could be growth over 2013, clearly there is growth over 2014 but thats because of how far it fell.

Honestly, you can probably thank the show writers at DHS who came up with that sing-a-long over a weekend for saving the Studio's collective ***. (Maybe someone should give Michael Roddy a giant bonus in stock for this?)

Things are stablized for the moment. Hopefully the Board will do right by the park and grow it.

Great analysis. Seems like it would definitely be in the Boards best interest to make a move. They really lucked out that Frozen did stop the bleeding considering how quickly it was thrown together, but its gonna need some help. Even an announcement for future plans would be a help and most likely boost moral for CM's and guests alike. I dont know what the chances would be of seeing a change in pace of construction time, but if they stepped it up a bit, it would really help. Theres such a great opportunity to capitalize on the moment here and also get DHS up to snuff. Im remaining cautiously optimistic.

 

[cdd89]

What do you think UOR should put in that isn't attractions? They're adding more hotels, a water park, new Citywalk experiences....

Fair question. I think part of the problem is that the parks feel too crammed with attractions. (Imagine if we said that about Disney!). There are only a small handful of quiet spots because anywhere you may be, a major attraction is right next door. (Yes, I realise how stupid it sounds that I'm spinning this as a negative...) More pointedly, the food stalls etc seem to target a much lower-brow market than Disney.

Many of those criticisms don't apply to tWWoHP or DA, but those areas are way too busy to be enjoyable as somewhere to relax (and make no mistake, I do enjoy them for their theming). That leaves (for me...) NY/SFO as the "well balanced" areas of USF, and Lost Continent (and the lagoon bay) as the "well balanced" area of IOA. But ultimately, without wanting to sound like a snake-oil salesman, less is more.

More hotels provide lots of opportunity for tranquility, but I personally think tranquil experiences need to be mixed in amongst the theme parks. This balance is one thing that Disney does really well (in all its parks, WDW included). And it really would take a miracle to make the CityWalk a palatable place to spend time. I can totally see how UOR grew this way, but in a perfect world, having the 3rd Park (which is clearly just a matter of time given the proportional increase in hotels and water parks) earlier and spreading out the attractions more would have made the place much more enjoyable. Not only that, but it would have been much more of an 'elephant in the room' for Disney, as presently it can be dismissed as "a couple of parks... WDW has four" - whereas three parks with a show quality differential that big, and extensive landscaping between attractions... well, WDW would either have to build a 5th park, or (more sensibly) work on restoring the detail and show quality it has shown itself capable of.