A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

[AEfx]

Bomb or not that doesn’t mean it’s a terrible film. Most of the reviews say it’s a fun good movie. I have yet to see it for a few reasons none of which have to do with fatigue or disliking TLJ.

Okay?

I didn't say anything whatsoever about the quality of the film. My post is simply about the fact that Disney managed to make the first live-action Star Wars theatrical bomb.

 

[Rteetz]

Okay?

I didn't say anything whatsoever about the quality of the film. My post is simply about the fact that Disney managed to make the first live-action Star Wars theatrical bomb.

I guess my post wasn't targeted at you specifically. I think many people associate bomb with it being a bad film and that is not always the case.

 

[AEfx]

I don't think there's just one thing that has led to the low box office, but a confluence of many factors. It will be interesting to see the eventual rep of the film among "hardcore" fans (especially those that decry TLJ) to see if there is any softening of their views on the franchise and it's current stewards.

Well, IMO, it basically proves that the stewardship is quite flawed. It was a film green lit not because there was some compelling idea for a story, but simply based on polls and survey results that said that Solo was the most popular "good guy" Star Wars character.

It is the polar opposite of Rogue One - which was born out of someone who had an idea for a compelling story that could be told, versus coming up with a story to fit a specific marketing goal.

And this is coming from someone who cheered the Disney purchase of Lucasfilm, because I really thought they were doing everything right - until they started proving me oh-so-wrong in the last year or so.

 

[Rteetz]

Well, IMO, it basically proves that the stewardship is quite flawed. It was a film green lit not because there was some compelling idea for a story, but simply based on polls and survey results that said that Solo was the most popular "good guy" Star Wars character.

It is the polar opposite of Rogue One - which was born out of someone who had an idea for a compelling story that could be told, versus coming up with a story to fit a specific marketing goal.

And this is coming from someone who cheered the Disney purchase of Lucasfilm, because I really thought they were doing everything right - until they started proving me oh-so-wrong in the last year or so.

And this is where there is a great divide. I don't think there is a big problem with the leadership at LucasFilm.

By many accounts Solo is a fun good film and written by the Kasdan's who do really know Solo and the Star Wars lore. Since Disney took over things haven't been incredibly smooth sailing, as most of the films have had several reshoots and director changes.

 

[doctornick]

It is the polar opposite of Rogue One - which was born out of someone who had an idea for a compelling story that could be told, versus coming up with a story to fit a specific marketing goal.

Maybe and in principle I agree with this. Make films based on a solid story that should be told, not just to make money off of a popular character.

But I think Rogue One actually horribly failed in that regard. The story kinda sucked, the new characters were forgettable, and IMHO the reason the film was so liked was because of all the callbacks to ANH and fan service (the Vader scene, for example). I think if it weren't so well intertwined to ANH that it wouldn't have been as well received.

I really want Lucasfilm to make a film that is actually independent of the franchise other than the setting. I wonder if the tepid reception of Solo will make that more or less likely -- on one hand, they could say that fans don't want backstories on existing characters; on the other, they might be even more gun shy about having films that don't have a pre-established "hook" worrying that they won't otherwise bring in fans.

 

[doctornick]

And this is where there is a great divide. I don't think there is a big problem with the leadership at LucasFilm.

I don't either. I've been rather happy with the films they've made (they all have flaws that I can criticize though, but they are generally good).

That said, I'd love to see SW get a Feige type to manage everything, someone who gets the material in way and has a vision that can satisfy both hardcore fans and draw in casuals and build things up. Things do seem too disjointed and could be improved upon.

 

[AEfx]

And this is where there is a great divide. I don't think there is a big problem with the leadership at LucasFilm.

By many accounts Solo is a fun good film and written by the Kasdan's who do really know Solo and the Star Wars lore. Since Disney took over things haven't been incredibly smooth sailing, as most of the films have had several reshoots and director changes.

And that isn't indicative of a problem in management? It can be argued that lots of films have reshoots, but to have them as extensive as R1 and especially Solo is unusual, which is why their budgets skyrocketed. And what happened with Solo's directors was nearly unprecedented. Films change directors during pre-production, but to fire them 2/3 of the way into shooting is just insane.

Even just fiscally, how does one screw up a Star Wars film? Somehow they have managed with Solo. It isn't even going to make back its budget, let alone it's total cost (including promotion).

I will not be surprised if we hear about Kennedy leaving to "spend more time with her family" in the forseeable future. "An okay, fun film" that isn't even going to make back its base budget is not what Disney and its shareholders expect from a 300M+ investment.

 

[Rteetz]

And that isn't indicative of a problem in management? It can be argued that lots of films have reshoots, but to have them as extensive as R1 and especially Solo is unusual, which is why their budgets skyrocketed. And what happened with Solo's directors was nearly unprecedented. Films change directors during pre-production, but to fire them 2/3 of the way into shooting is just insane.

Even just fiscally, how does one screw up a Star Wars film? Somehow they have managed with Solo. It isn't even going to make back its budget, let alone it's total cost (including promotion).

I will not be surprised if we hear about Kennedy leaving to "spend more time with her family" in the forseeable future. "An okay, fun film" that isn't even going to make back its base budget is not what Disney and its shareholders expect from a 300M+ investment.

Its all opinion. I and others have liked what they have been doing so like I said I don't see a leadership issue.

 

[AEfx]

Its all opinion. I and others have liked what they have been doing so like I said I don't see a leadership issue.

Actually, what you are saying - "I like it" is all opinion. I gave a solid list of facts as to why the management has clearly had issues.

 

[Rteetz]

Actually, what you are saying - "I like it" is all opinion. I gave a solid list of facts as to why the management has clearly had issues.

Yes facts that there were reshoots and director changes which of course I am not denying but because there was reshoots and director changes does not mean their should be a leadership change. In your opinion their should be a leadership change, in my opinion there shouldn't be.

 

[AEfx]

Yes facts that there were reshoots and director changes which of course I am not denying but because there was reshoots and director changes does not mean their should be a leadership change. In your opinion their should be a leadership change, in my opinion there shouldn't be.

LOL. Whatever. I am listing concrete things that have happened that are direct evidence of a problem in management. It's basic business. All you can say is "I like it". Not worth arguing with you when you clearly aren't able to have a conversation on this level.

 

[Rteetz]

LOL. Whatever. I am listing concrete things that have happened that are direct evidence of a problem in management. It's basic business. All you can say is "I like it". Not worth arguing with you when you clearly aren't able to have a conversation on this level.

I can certainly have a conversation at this level but while yes you are using facts there is also opinion in that. As you pointed out several movies and studios have reshoots and changes but does each of those those involve a change in leadership? I would think not. Things obviously haven't been smooth with these films. I am not ignoring that. Look at Disney/Lucasfilm playing it safe and going back to JJ for episode 9. I don't necessarily believe Kathleen Kennedy is the problem here.

 

[AEfx]

That said, I'd love to see SW get a Feige type to manage everything, someone who gets the material in way and has a vision that can satisfy both hardcore fans and draw in casuals and build things up. Things do seem too disjointed and could be improved upon.

That's what is so confounding. I mean, they were - the "story committee" or whatever. It sounded brilliant. But then...they planned everything but the films - I mean, they admit there was no plan for the sequel trilogy, they are doing them as they go. It just boggles the mind - the most important part was what they didn't plan.

 

[doctornick]

Actually, what you are saying - "I like it" is all opinion. I gave a solid list of facts as to why the management has clearly had issues.

Well, people can point to how much money that the films have made as evidence they are "working". I mean, it's an opinion that Star Wars movies can't or shouldn't have a bomb.

That being said, I think that the fact that the leadership -- whether it's Lucasfilm specifically or Iger and company -- is willing to put the time and money into extensive reshoots show they really care about the product. People can argue about the results (again, I have enjoyed them) but there's at least strong evidence that they truly care about the product and its quality.

Anyhow, there's actually a simply way for Disney/Lucasfilm to make everything all right. Sometime between now and Ep IX, they need to release the original trilogy in their original theatrical release on Blu Ray. Doing that would earn them a huge amount of goodwill from disgruntled fans (and lots of money in sales) and help build up the hype and enthusiasm for Ep IX. Especially if they couple that with hints that Force Ghost Luke will return as a mentor for Rey.

 

[AEfx]

I can certainly have a conversation at this level but while yes you are using facts there is also opinion in that. As you pointed out several movies and studios have reshoots and changes but does each of those those involve a change in leadership? I would think not. Things obviously haven't been smooth with these films. I am not ignoring that. Look at Disney/Lucasfilm playing it safe and going back to JJ for episode 9. I don't necessarily believe Kathleen Kennedy is the problem here.

And as I said - reshoots are common, but not on this level. Changing directors so far into production on films that cost this much is nearly unprecedented. What has happened with Solo financially this weekend, with so little competition, is embarrassing for Disney. They managed to screw up the un-screw-upable with Solo bombing so hard. How do you make a Star Wars film that isn't even going to make back its budget?

If leadership isn't to blame, then who is? The buck stops somewhere. She is the one hiring these people. She is the one losing control of productions with out-of-control budgets. I am simply being realistic about how business is run in the movie industry.

In any case, regardless of what you or I think should happen - I can tell you what is going to happen, and that is that she won't be staying in this position for very much longer.

 

[Rteetz]

And as I said - reshoots are common, but not on this level. Changing directors so far into production on films that cost this much is nearly unprecedented. What has happened with Solo financially this weekend, with so little competition, is embarrassing for Disney. They managed to screw up the un-screw-upable with Solo bombing so hard. How do you make a Star Wars film that isn't even going to make back its budget?

If leadership isn't to blame, then who is? The buck stops somewhere. She is the one hiring these people. She is the one losing control of productions with out-of-control budgets. I am simply being realistic about how business is run in the movie industry.

In any case, regardless of what you or I think should happen - I can tell you what is going to happen, and that is that she won't be staying in this position for very much longer.

While domestically Solo has been bad globally I believe I saw the number was $148 million which is only $7 million behind Rogue One, not that bad really.

I don't blame anyone because I have liked the movies and many others have. I think that is where our argument issue is. You see a problem with management and I don't. Star Wars is still making a ton of money and unless episode 9 also bombs I don't see Kathleen Kennedy leaving soon.

 

[doctornick]

And as I said - reshoots are common, but not on this level. Changing directors so far into production on films that cost this much is nearly unprecedented. What has happened with Solo financially this weekend, with so little competition, is embarrassing for Disney. They managed to screw up the un-screw-upable with Solo bombing so hard. How do you make a Star Wars film that isn't even going to make back its budget?

You realize Deadpool 2 just came out last week, right? And Avengers: IW just sucked up a ton of money in the last month from the same casual moviegoer audience that flocks to Star Wars films.

There's no doubt that Solo is a SW bomb financially, but it's had by far and away the toughest competition of any Star Wars film.

Edit: I'll also add that Jumanji's unexpected success had a significant impact on TLJ's legs. I don't recall either TFA or RO having much of anything big around them (feel free to correct).

 

[AEfx]

Well, people can point to how much money that the films have made as evidence they are "working". I mean, it's an opinion that Star Wars movies can't or shouldn't have a bomb.

Oh gosh, we could sit here and debate "opinion" all day - but are you really arguing this? No one makes movies that they expect to bomb, but Star Wars is a whole other level. The most golden goose of the golden geese.

Anyhow, there's actually a simply way for Disney/Lucasfilm to make everything all right. Sometime between now and Ep IX, they need to release the original trilogy in their original theatrical release on Blu Ray. Doing that would earn them a huge amount of goodwill from disgruntled fans (and lots of money in sales) and help build up the hype and enthusiasm for Ep IX. Especially if they couple that with hints that Force Ghost Luke will return as a mentor for Rey.

As much as I would like to see that - I don't think that would have much impact on how people feel about "new Star Wars" - just affirm how they feel about "old Star Wars" - not to mention there are some challenges in doing so that are beyond the scope of what we are talking about here.

 

[AEfx]

While domestically Solo has been bad globally I believe I saw the number was $148 million which is only $7 million behind Rogue One, not that bad really.

Incorrect. 148M is the TOTAL - including the 101M domestic. That was what was reported earlier. According to up to the minute reports, it is ending the weekend with 65M outside of the US. The film is making far less than R1.

I don't blame anyone because I have liked the movies and many others have. I think that is where our argument issue is. You see a problem with management and I don't. Star Wars is still making a ton of money and unless episode 9 also bombs I don't see Kathleen Kennedy leaving soon.

And that's where our conversation ends, because I'm not going 'round that bend again. Our argument is because I am talking logically about the business ramifcations backed up with evidence, and all you can say is "I like the movies so there is no problem". That's great you think that, but that's not how the movie industry views things, period.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

And that isn't indicative of a problem in management? It can be argued that lots of films have reshoots, but to have them as extensive as R1 and especially Solo is unusual, which is why their budgets skyrocketed. And what happened with Solo's directors was nearly unprecedented. Films change directors during pre-production, but to fire them 2/3 of the way into shooting is just insane.

Even just fiscally, how does one screw up a Star Wars film? Somehow they have managed with Solo. It isn't even going to make back its budget, let alone it's total cost (including promotion).

I will not be surprised if we hear about Kennedy leaving to "spend more time with her family" in the forseeable future. "An okay, fun film" that isn't even going to make back its base budget is not what Disney and its shareholders expect from a 300M+ investment.

Cue the “Kevin Feige moves to Lucasfilm” rumors.