A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

[Quinnmac000]

Its all opinion. I and others have liked what they have been doing so like I said I don't see a leadership issue.

Just because you liked the film doesn't mean everyone did. Mind you it has the worst Cinemascore out of all the Star Wars films which means people who saw it opening day didn't enjoy it as much as other films. Secondly, a lot of people like a lot of things however if its not maintaining a good and steady ROI then obviously something needs to be addressed.

Kathleen Kennedy has three jobs. 1. Make films based on Lucasfilms IP. 2. Make sure they are properly staffed, maintain positive and beneficial PR while remain adequately budgeted to ensure positive ROI. 3 Make sure they are successful worldwide.

Right now, she is only doing one of them. Making films based on Lucasfilms IP. Through her tenure, we have seen directors replaced last minute with extensive reshoots (Rogue One/Solo), negative stories from members of the cast and the stories/direction of the films (Solo, TLJ) and dwindling returns international interest in approximately 4 of the top 10 film markets which are also key as they are essential for getting super high box office numbers (China, Japan, South Korea, India which are what boosted Marvel into the stratosphere box office wise especially Korea where everyone and their mother goes to see Marvel films since they filmed two films there).

 

[AEfx]

You said it seems like they tried to screw up with Solo.

What I said was, "It's almost like you would have to try to screw that up." I wasn't literally saying they actually tried to, just expressing astonishment that they were able to.

 

[AEfx]

After all, Ant-Man had the same mid-stream switch in directors like Solo did. It happens to studios.

No, it didn't.

Ant Man changed directors several months before production began. That happens, the situation with Solo was entirely different and nearly unprecedented on a project like this, particularly since they were outright fired. Solo switched directors months after production had started and a significant portion of the film had already been shot.

One could try to compare Justice League, but the untimely and tragic death of the director's child is a far different beast than the work being turned in was so bad that they had to be fired.

That's where the terrible management comes in - I mean, to not realize until that point that it wasn't working, when you are talking a picture that costs this much, means that someone was egregiously not on the ball - and the buck stops at Kennedy.

 

[Rteetz]

Just because you liked the film doesn't mean everyone did. Mind you it has the worst Cinemascore out of all the Star Wars films which means people who saw it opening day didn't enjoy it as much as other films. Secondly, a lot of people like a lot of things however if its not maintaining a good and steady ROI then obviously something needs to be addressed.

Kathleen Kennedy has three jobs. 1. Make films based on Lucasfilms IP. 2. Make sure they are properly staffed, maintain positive and beneficial PR while remain adequately budgeted to ensure positive ROI. 3 Make sure they are successful worldwide.

Right now, she is only doing one of them. Making films based on Lucasfilms IP. Through her tenure, we have seen directors replaced last minute with extensive reshoots (Rogue One/Solo), negative stories from members of the cast and the stories/direction of the films (Solo, TLJ) and dwindling returns international interest in approximately 4 of the top 10 film markets which are also key as they are essential for getting super high box office numbers (China, Japan, South Korea, India which are what boosted Marvel into the stratosphere box office wise especially Korea where everyone and their mother goes to see Marvel films since they filmed two films there).

I never said everyone liked The Last Jedi and I certainly know that isn’t the case. There were definitely people who did though.

Other than Solo the films have been successful have they not?

Star Wars is an IP unlike anything else. It’s ingrained in people’s lives and people are so incredibly critical of what happens. I don’t think people are exactly the same way with that with Marvel since it’s a newer film franchise (the MCU is only 10 years old).

In my opinion whoever heads Star Wars is going to face criticism. You play it too safe people will complain that no risks are being taken. You take risks and then people will complain that they should’ve played it safe. Even George Lucas faced criticism with something like the prequels. It’s not a job where you can please everyone.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Solo should have never been greenlit in the first place. I'm one of the biggest Star Wars fanboys there is and I loved The Last Jedi, ranking it fourth after Empire, New Hope, and Force Awakens. But from day one, long before TLJ, nobody WANTED a young Han Solo movie. Fans have been clamoring for The Old Republic for ten years but for some reason Disney is terrified to expand the timeline more than 50 years before or after the Battle of Yavin.

 

[Bairstow]

Solo should have never been greenlit in the first place. I'm one of the biggest Star Wars fanboys there is and I loved The Last Jedi, ranking it fourth after Empire, New Hope, and Force Awakens. But from day one, long before TLJ, nobody WANTED a young Han Solo movie. Fans have been clamoring for The Old Republic for ten years but for some reason Disney is terrified to expand the timeline more than 50 years before or after the Battle of Yavin.

Thinking that the idea of "Han Solo" had any real appeal without the direct involvement of Harrison Ford was idiocy.

 

[ChrisFL]

Thinking that the idea of "Han Solo" had any real appeal without the direct involvement of Harrison Ford was idiocy.

or at least finding actor that had any similarity to him.

 

[Mike S]

or at least finding actor that had any similarity to him.

 

[englanddg]

I don't think it's the actor.

I don't think it's "franchise fatigue".

It's not about lack of "fan service", or too much of it.

It's not about "diversity of cast".

It's not about "political messaging in entertainment".

It's about shallow, nonsensical characters, sophomoric humor, and uninteresting stories.

And, to me, that points to the people in charge. And, whilst claiming to be fans of the material, I suspect they are not. They, at their core, don't take the franchise seriously. And, it shows. They don't care about telling THE story...and, I'm not sure they care about telling A story.

And, that points to the top. Rian is to blame for TLJ, no doubt. But, even Lucas needed restraining factors to craft better films (something we as a fanbase saw once he didn't have them, with the prequels and the special editions)... That said, he obviously still took the franchise seriously.

Kathleen...I am pretty sure she doesn't. And, as for TLJ, she approved that abortion of a film. When, she should have been the voice of reason to Rian...not Mark Hamill.

But, back to Lucas, part of why the prequels fail to deliver is because he took the franchise seriously. Something I didn't really understand until watching Clone Wars, and realizing that the story he tried to tell in three movies was...just too large for those movies.

So, as a result, you end up with one dimensional "baddies" (Grevious and Dooku) that you don't really care about. Something Clone Wars could retcon pretty well, as the medium (TV) allowed for more nuanced character development.

Plus, he did have one issue with the fact audiences knew all along Palpatine was going to become the Emperor, and Anakin would be Vader. But, he did a decent job of explaining how.

The Prequels were bad, but they were still Star Wars. They were still fun. You could still turn off your brain and enjoy sharing the environment with these characters.

They didn't spit on the characters, they didn't poo poo the legacy.

Which is what the new movies do, to different extents.

I want Kathleen gone.

That said, I don't think JJ is the saving grace either. TFA was...ok. But, this is the same guy who can't write a satisfying ending to anything. He loves his "mystery boxes" so much.

He had a similar issue with Star Trek. He crafted a film that was perfectly cast, (lens flares aside) looked amazing...could have been great. And, then he served it up with terrible plots and poor character development...and, frankly, hamfisted fan service (I still can't get over how bad the "oh we are clever, lets reverse the Spock death scene" was)...

JJ is not a genius at anything but visuals, and to an extent, casting. Keep him far away from story, though. He has no idea what he is doing.

 

[Mike S]

I don't think it's the actor.

I don't think it's "franchise fatigue".

It's not about lack of "fan service", or too much of it.

It's not about "diversity of cast".

It's not about "political messaging in entertainment".

It's about shallow, nonsensical characters, sophomoric humor, and uninteresting stories.

And, to me, that points to the people in charge, whilst claiming to be fans of the material, are not. They, at their core, don't take the franchise seriously. And, it shows. They don't care about telling THE story...and, I'm not sure they care about telling A story.

And, that points to the top. Rian is to blame for TLJ, no doubt. But, like Lucas needed restraining factors to craft better films (something we as a fanbase saw once he didn't have them, with the prequels and the special editions)...at least he still took the franchise seriously. Kathleen...I am pretty sure she doesn't. And, for TLJ, she approved that abortion of a film.

But, back to Lucas, part of why the prequels fail to deliver is because he took the franchise seriously. Something I didn't really understand until watching Clone Wars, and realizing that the story he tried to tell in three movies was...just too large for those movies.
So, as a result, you end up with one dimensional "baddies" (Grevious and Dooku) that you don't really care about. Something Clone Wars could retcon pretty well, as the medium (TV) allowed for more nuanced character development.

Plus, he did have one issue with the fact audiences knew all along Palpatine was going to become the Emperor. But, he did a decent job of explaining how.

The Prequels were bad, but they were still Star Wars. They were still fun. You could still turn off your brain and enjoy sharing the environment with these characters.

They didn't spit on the characters, they didn't poo poo the legacy.

The new movies do all these things, to different extents.

I want Kathleen gone.

That said, I don't think JJ is the saving grace either. TFA was...ok. But, this is the same guy who can't write a satisfying ending to anything. He loves his "mystery boxes" so much.

He had a similar issue with Star Trek. He crafted a film that was perfectly cast, (lens flares aside) looked amazing...could have been great. And, then he served it up with terrible plots and poor character development...and, frankly, hamfisted fan service (I still can't get over how bad the "oh we are clever, lets reverse the Spock death scene" was)...

JJ is not a genius at anything but visuals, and to an extent, casting. Keep him far away from story, though. He has no idea what he is doing.

They do do care about telling a story though, THEIR story and screw any established lore. Hell, Rian even screwed over stuff from TFA!!!

 

[englanddg]

They do do care about telling a story though, THEIR story and screw any established lore. Hell, Rian even screwed over stuff from TFA!!!

I will admit, if they do have a plan for this....I can't see where it's going. But, from what they've dished up, it's slop.

It was a terrible script that should have never made it past any sort of approval process.

It's like he smoked a big fat doobie of "Last Airbender" era Shyamalan whilst writing it.

 

[Rteetz]

Is it because don’t know if it’s because I’m younger and didn’t grow up with the originals or even really the prequels but I really don’t mind the new films at all. I wasn’t ingrained with Star Wars from birth either as my parents weren’t fans. I feel the older Star Wars fans seem to be the ones upset and the younger ones not so much.

 

[Cesar R M]

After all, Ant-Man had the same mid-stream switch in directors like Solo did. It happens to studios.

Deadpool 2 also had the director change as wel if I remember correctlyl.. for "differences" between leadership, vision, etc..

 

[englanddg]

Is it because don’t know if it’s because I’m younger and didn’t grow up with the originals or even really the prequels but I really don’t mind the new films at all. I wasn’t ingrained with Star Wars from birth either as my parents weren’t fans. I feel the older Star Wars fans seem to be the ones upset and the younger ones not so much.

I don't see much of an age issue, per se. My daughter is 13, and whilst she isn't upset about it (I am), she also is not as interested in Star Wars as she used to be. She is more like..."meh, it is Star Wars". Now, that could be because she's 13 and exploring other media...but, she's been a Star Wars geek since she was a kid. Heck, she's got a Minnie Mouse dressed as Leia painting on her wall still. She got me into Clone Wars and later Rebels. In fact, when we were at WDW, she wanted to watch the Rebels premier in our Hotel over going to a park that day. And, she wanted to watch the Rebels finale with me. So, no, I don't think it's fatigue.

Rather, I think it's the movie franchise, currently, just isn't turning out good stories or compelling characters.

That said, the thread I do see overlapping from vocal supporters and vocal critics, isn't really age. It's those who were, to some degree, invested in the EU (which I loosely lump Clone Wars and Rebels into, because they are products germinated of that era, though I'm glad Disney didn't eject them) vs the new Canon.

Some of the best defenders of TFA and TLJ, often have a common theme. "Well, if you read this new book/comic, it makes more sense".

And, I'm ok with that. I buy that. But, I don't allow it to excuse poor execution. And, by that, I mean the movie itself should make you want to read those materials, because you want more. A subjective example...I skipped Ragnarok and Black Panther. But, after watching Avengers, I immediately bought both on iTunes (well, I had to wait a week before I could buy Black Panther). And, both those films, whilst not perfect, were fun and enjoyable. I liked the people in the movie. I liked the story. I was able to turn off my brain and explore the world they presented through this story. They worked. And, that's because Avengers...worked. It made me want more from that Universe.

TLJ, in contract, and as a specific example, introduces Holdo. There is no reason to like her. She is arrogant, dismissive, and overall unpleasant. Now, that can be explained away (I've heard it is in the Leia novel)...and, maybe...like Clone Wars gave the prequels more depth, this works. I don't know. But, based on how terrible the execution was in TLJ, I have no interest in finding out. So, yeah, the book may flesh out her character a bit, but...the movie didn't make me want to buy the book. I don't want more.

Further, and this is underlying of a lot of TLJ criticism, I think...I understand that a lot of younger people grew up in broken households, and the like. But, I find this push to debase strong male characters disturbing. And, I'm not reading into this. It is explicit...Kathleen herself said she "couldn't relate to Luke"...not because he was a bad character, but because he was a man...and that's fine for her to feel that way. But, lots of people disagree, and DID relate to Luke.

So, yeah, I'm gonna be "that guy"...what they did to Han's character (turning him into a deadbeat dad) and Luke's character (turning him into a self-hating coward...which if he wanted to isolate, why did he leave a Map in R2 for people to follow?...makes no sense). And, no, phoning it in through force projection at the last minute...wasn't enough of a redeeming arc.

These two actions, one by JJ, the other by Rian, (and both approved by Darth Kennedy) directly spit on the development and the underlying motivations of these characters from the first trilogy. No, you don't get to say "Han just up and left his wife and his kid because...reasons", and then kill him off.

You don't get to say that Luke "had a moment of weakness" and tried to kill his own nephew...especially when then you go off and kill, with no explanation, the external source of that weakness (Snoke).

"Oh, well, if you read this book/comic, it makes sense". Yeah, well...no.

---

Edited to say, I'm not really directing this at you personally. Please don't misread it and take it that way. I agree and respect your opinion on the matter...just carrying the conversation along. I'm not sure it's about "age" alone...

 

[Mike S]

Is it because don’t know if it’s because I’m younger and didn’t grow up with the originals or even really the prequels but I really don’t mind the new films at all. I wasn’t ingrained with Star Wars from birth either as my parents weren’t fans. I feel the older Star Wars fans seem to be the ones upset and the younger ones not so much.

I’m only 4 (almost 5) years older than you are. Then again, I grew up watching these movies on video and seeing the Prequels as they released in theaters.

 

[ChrisFL]

The problem with the new trilogy is that it was going to have 3 directors with different visions and not a cohesive story from what we can tell. It seems that Rian took everything JJ did, turned it upside down and wanted the next guy (not JJ at the time) to fix it.

If Rian had been the director for Ep. 9 I wouldn't be bothered as much yet until I saw the finished product.

 

[Rteetz]

I’m only 4 (almost 5) years older than you are. Then again, I grew up watching these movies on video and seeing the Prequels as they released in theaters.

Ok makes sense. My first Star Wars film in the theaters was force awakens. I of course have seen all of them but didn’t grow up attached to them.

 

[Mike S]

I don't see much of an age issue, per se. My daughter is 13, and whilst she isn't upset about it (I am), she also is not as interested in Star Wars as she used to be. She is more like..."meh, it is Star Wars". Now, that could be because she's 13 and exploring other media...but, she's been a Star Wars geek since she was a kid. Heck, she's got a Minnie Mouse dressed as Leia painting on her wall still. She got me into Clone Wars and later Rebels. In fact, when we were at WDW, she wanted to watch the Rebels premier in our Hotel over going to a park that day. And, she wanted to watch the Rebels finale with me. So, no, I don't think it's fatigue.

Rather, I think it's the movie franchise, currently, just isn't turning out good stories or compelling characters.

That said, the thread I do see overlapping from vocal supporters and vocal critics, isn't really age. It's those who were, to some degree, invested in the EU (which I loosely lump Clone Wars and Rebels into, because they are products germinated of that era, though I'm glad Disney didn't eject them) vs the new Canon.

Some of the best defenders of TFA and TLJ, often have a common theme. "Well, if you read this new book/comic, it makes more sense".

And, I'm ok with that. I buy that. But, I don't allow it to excuse poor execution. And, by that, I mean the movie itself should make you want to read those materials, because you want more. A subjective example...I skipped Ragnarok and Black Panther. But, after watching Avengers, I immediately bought both on iTunes (well, I had to wait a week before I could buy Black Panther). And, both those films, whilst not perfect, were fun and enjoyable. I liked the people in the movie. I liked the story. I was able to turn off my brain and explore the world they presented through this story. They worked.

TLJ introduces Holdo. There is no reason to like her. She is arrogant, dismissive, and overall unpleasant. Now, that can be explained away (I've heard it is in the Leia novel)...and, maybe...like Clone Wars gave the prequels more depth, this works. I don't know. But, based on how terrible the execution was in TLJ, I have no interest in finding out.

Further, I understand that a lot of younger people grew up in broken households, and the like. But, I find this a disturbing push to debase strong male characters. And, I'm not reading into this. It is explicit...Kathleen herself said she "couldn't relate to Luke"...not because he was a bad character, but because he was a man...and that's fine for her to feel that way. But, lots of people disagree, and DID relate to Luke.

So, yeah, I'm gonna be "that guy"...what they did to Han's character (turning him into a deadbeat dad) and Luke's character (turning him into a self-hating coward...which if he wanted to isolate, why did he leave a Map in R2 for people to follow?...makes no sense). And, no, phoning it in through force projection at the last minute...wasn't enough of a redeeming arc.

These two actions, one by JJ, the other by Rian, (and both approved by Darth Kennedy) directly spit on the development and the underlying motivations of these characters from the first trilogy. No, you don't get to say "Han just up and left his wife and his kid because...reasons", and then kill him off.

You don't get to say that Luke "had a moment of weakness" and tried to kill his own nephew...especially when then you go off and kill, with no explanation, the external source of that weakness (Snoke).

"Oh, well, if you read this book/comic, it makes sense". Yeah, well...no.

---

Edited to say, I'm not really directing this at you personally. Please don't misread it and take it that way. I agree and respect your opinion on the matter...just carrying the conversation along. I'm not sure it's about "age" alone...

She can’t relate because he’s a man...? Tell me you’re joking. Guess I’m more open minded than she is as I’m able to easily relate to female characters if they’re well written.

 

[englanddg]

She can’t relate because he’s a man...? Tell me your joking. Guess I’m more open minded than she is as I’m able to easily relate to female characters if they’re well written.

To be fair, what she actually said (though she's repeated it often) is that "girls can't relate to Luke" and that they "relate to Leia". So, it's not as bad as I made it out to be (unless you read into it, which I do, obviously). But, I can see why people would disagree with my interpretation.

So, here's one interview where she says it (though she's said it in other interviews as well).



Now, that's fine. I don't have a problem with Rey or Erso being leads. Just make them compelling. They were not, really. Erso a bit more so (rhyme not intended)...but, again, they went off into the trope of "she lost her parents, she's a tortured soul" angle...so, I feel like they really missed an opportunity there.

But, that said...wanting to inject strong female leads doesn't mean you have to debase the male characters to prop up the female ones. And, that is what she has done. It's the statement, combined with the execution, that is the issue. Not either by themselves. But, her statement (and other statements by people like JJ and Rian, frankly) shows there is an agenda, and that agenda isn't telling good stories as the primary, it's about ticking boxes.

It's incredibly shallow motivation, and I think, to some extent, that is why we are getting shallow characters as a result.

 

[Mike S]

To be fair, what she actually said (though she's repeated it often) is that "girls can't relate to Luke" and that they "relate to Leia". So, it's not as bad as I made it out to be (unless you read into it, which I do, obviously). But, I can see why people would disagree with my interpretation.

So, here's one interview where she says it (though she's said it in other interviews as well).



Now, that's fine. I don't have a problem with Rey or Erso being leads. Just make them compelling. They were not, really. Erso a bit more so (rhyme not intended)...but, again, they went off into the trope of "she lost her parents, she's a tortured soul" angle...so, I feel like they really missed an opportunity there.

But, that said...wanting to inject strong female leads doesn't mean you have to debase the male characters to prop up the female ones. And, that is what she has done. It's the statement, combined with the execution, that is the issue. Not either by themselves. But, her statement (and other statements by people like JJ and Rian, frankly) shows there is an agenda, and that agenda isn't telling good stories as the primary, it's about ticking boxes.

It's incredibly shallow motivation, and I think, to some extent, that is why we are getting shallow characters as a result.

One thing I’ve seen constantly brought up about Leia is that whatever smart remark she had there was an equal dynamic between her and Han Solo. They were both strong willed characters that wouldn’t take anything from anybody.