A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

[AEfx]

People hate it because of how they handled Luke and the force. There are some other smaller things people hate but thats basically it.

Bingo. That's how I see it and why people hate it. You came right out and said it, lol.

I've taken a different way of looking at things. Is it bad because I didn't like what they did, or is it bad because it really is "bad". It's not a 'bad' movie.

Honestly, I only think that was a small portion of the people who didn't like it because of Luke.

I can tell you very simply why I did not, and why I don't think it was a good film. There are two reasons - one, lack of follow-up to the previous film, and two, incoherent, implausible narrative.

TFA built up two things in particular - Rey's parentage and Snoke's origins - that were completely dismissed. Watching TFA, scene after scene teased these things (particularly the former), but even to the people who completely deny that (which befuddles the hell out of me how they can't see it, especially in Harrison's performance - he's not exactly a subtle actor), the publicity around the film (panels, articles, etc.) focused so heavily on those two things, only for them to be callously brushed aside.

It has *nothing* to do with "what I wanted to happen didn't happen" - that I had some attachment about *what* those answers were, I just wanted the answers that were endlessly teased.

(If there is ONE thing I wish people would get - it would be that - I didn't care who the hell Rey's parents were, or who Snoke turned out to be - especially since supposedly the original plan was to tie him into the prequels - but to say neither of them mattered after the entirety of TFA was just mind boggling. People argue now "well, we didn't need to know" - fine, then they shouldn't have spent two years building that shiz up!)

Now, even if you ignore all of that - the story beats of the film are just so implausible. I mean, just sequence out the events. The First Order is trailing behind the Resistance and inexplicably can't catch up to them. They go to hyper space, and begin another slow creep. A slow creep during which time Finn and Rose are able to go to an entirely different star system (apparently, they have fast ships that no one else has), have a whole side adventure (and take time to save those cute horseys!) - and return just as the same slow creep is happening.

And then, once everyone gets on the ground - inexplicably the First Order lands it slow as hell vehicles no where near where they know the Rebels are, only to have another slow creep.

(I highly recommend the "Everything Wrong" folks take on it - they are always amusing, but in this case they are so spot on it isn't even funny and even they skipped a lot of things - like why Holdo had to stay on the ship and they couldn't just leave a dang droid to do it.)

But okay...let's even forget about THAT...once you look at the timeline of the two films, you realize how laughable all the heightened emotion is. From the opening shot of TFA to the closing shot of TLJ, about ten days have passed. Ten days, where suddenly Crylo and MaryRay are two of the most deeply connected by the Force beings in the universe, MaryRay has gone from junk collector struggling to get her daily "portions" to Jedi Knight, Finn has gone from Stormtrooper to traitor and infiltrated the First Order again not once but TWICE, and fallen for two different girls (apparently, every girl he meets he falls for)...I could go on.

It's fine that people like it, I like some bad movies too - but man, TLJ just doesn't hold up to any type of scrutiny whatsoever. And this is coming from someone who defended the hell out of TFA for two years, because I didn't believe in all the criticisms of it, thinking that TLJ would answer those criticisms, instead of just making a movie that had nothing to do with what went on in it.

 

[AEfx]

Bumping Infinity War up a week was a great strategy move by Disney. Solo should have been pushed back a couple months to late July or early August, just to space out the Star Wars movies a bit better

They wanted Memorial Day strictly for the possibility of breaking a record. Memorial Day, once upon a time, was considered the biggest box office weekend of the year, where multiple tent poles would be released to duke it out, but it has been steadily declining for years. Last year was the worst Memorial Day this century. So this was their best chance to be able to say it was a "record breaking" anything.

Unfortunately for them, that didn't happen - by a long shot.

Disney originally projected around 170M domestic, then went downard and final projections were 130M - 150M, and it looks like it is going to land around 110M (so Pirates record is undoubtedly safe at just under 140M), and even with ever increasing ticket prices as well as the 3D tax, it is looking to end up around 10th for Memorial Day openings (compared to films like “Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of Crystal Skull,” “X-Men: The Last Stand,” “Fast and Furious 6,” and “X-Men: Days of Future Past" which were pre-3D/IMAX prices).

When you take into account that reportedly the budget of the film ballooned because of the behind-the-scenes issues and the amount of reshoots, no one at Disney is going to be doing cartwheels over this next week.

(EDIT: Though I am sure internally at least, there will be a significant blame on the fact that a decent cam copy of the entire film leaked online Thursday. The outfits that release those gave TFA a wide berth (didn't release the bootlegs for almost two weeks after the film came out) out of respect, but have since decided otherwise when it comes to Disney/Star Wars...)

I think originally Disney had assumed these "side" films would be cheaper but given how over-budget both R1 and Solo have been, and both cost more than TFA and TLJ, it is no wonder why they are greenlighting multiple trilogies now - they just make more economic sense as costs can be distributed, assets reused, etc.

 

[Princess Leia]

They wanted Memorial Day strictly for the possibility of breaking a record. Memorial Day, once upon a time, was considered the biggest box office weekend of the year, where multiple tent poles would be released to duke it out, but it has been steadily declining for years. Last year was the worst Memorial Day this century. So this was their best chance to be able to say it was a "record breaking" anything.

Unfortunately for them, that didn't happen - by a long shot.

Disney originally projected around 170M domestic, then went downard and final projections were 130M - 150M, and it looks like it is going to land around 110M (so Pirates record is undoubtedly safe at just under 140M), and even with ever increasing ticket prices as well as the 3D tax, it is looking to end up around 10th for Memorial Day openings (compared to films like “Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of Crystal Skull,” “X-Men: The Last Stand,” “Fast and Furious 6,” and “X-Men: Days of Future Past" which were pre-3D/IMAX prices).

When you take into account that reportedly the budget of the film ballooned because of the behind-the-scenes issues and the amount of reshoots, no one at Disney is going to be doing cartwheels over this next week.

(EDIT: Though I am sure internally at least, there will be a significant blame on the fact that a decent cam copy of the entire film leaked online Thursday. The outfits that release those gave TFA a wide berth (didn't release the bootlegs for almost two weeks after the film came out) out of respect, but have since decided otherwise when it comes to Disney/Star Wars...)

I think originally Disney had assumed these "side" films would be cheaper but given how over-budget both R1 and Solo have been, and both cost more than TFA and TLJ, it is no wonder why they are greenlighting multiple trilogies now - they just make more economic sense as costs can be distributed, assets reused, etc.

You’re right- on paper, this was a smart move, but in actuality, this was very bad. If Disney didn’t want to plan these things out every three years (the formula we were used to), they could have done something like every 2 years. Star Wars isn’t like Marvel, the formula isn’t there for 2-3 movies a year (after they finish Phase 3 and the Fox deal is finalized, I hope the total films per year stays at 3). I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I’ve got Star Wars fatigue, and that’s a problem.

 

[brb1006]

Did you folks see the Chinese thread invasion a couple weeks back?

This been going on alot the past three months for some reason.

 

[flyerjab]

I won’t have as much to say about this as others but I can sum up my thoughts like this:

1) The Last Jedi was a HUGE disappointment for me. The story, aside from the cohesiveness, was simply abysmal. The treatment of the original cast was just sad and Poe’s entire storyline was a complete throwaway.
2) Apparently the use of the Force no longer requires any real training, as well as for the use of a lightsaber.
3) Rian Johnson should not have been given the reigns to an entire trilogy. After seeing TLJ, he doesn’t “get” Star Wars.
4) Bob Iger should realize that Star Wars is not Marvel. People the are brought up on comics are used to constant storyline and character bombardment. Star Wars is not that. I grew up with the original trilogy. Each movie was to be cherished and seen as a true event. You can’t have that with two movies a year, and animated and live TV shows.
5) Kathleen Kennedy and Co. need to worry less about being progressive and more about great generational stories. Concoct a great story first and your progressive beats can follow naturally.

Ha! I guess I had more to say than I thought.

 

[Kman101]

I'll say that, for me, someone who grew up on the original trilogy as a grade school kid in the mid-90s, the turnoff of Last Jedi is that it kept hinting that it would do some really new, fresh things with the franchise, but ultimately it chickened out on nearly all of them. Force Awakens was a pretty well done retread of A New Hope, but a retread nonetheless; Last Jedi seemed like it was willing to take the series in some radically new directions (I honestly really enjoyed the "Luke has to stop dwelling on his past failure" arc), but by the end we're still stuck with Rebels vs. Empire, Light vs. Dark, and I'm just really bored of that at this stage.

Beyond that, from a narrative standpoint Last Jedi discarded almost everything that Force Awakens set up, which would have been fine if the film had completely committed to radically altering the way Star Wars movies are done, but instead, by returning everything back to square one by film's end, it just has nothing set up for Episode IX...in other words, why did they bother making it at trilogy if they had no overarching narrative in mind?

And yeah, don't get me started on how Poe's hard-headedness nearly killed the rebellion, yet by movie's end Leia's telling people "follow him!" Dude should've been in a brig awaiting court martial, which would've been a more tense set up for the third movie...heck, the heroes having to confront the weight of their failures more would've done that, and made the final shot of the kid with the broom more meaningful.

That said, I hate that so many of the loudest voices I hear decrying Last Jedi seem to be doing it for neanderthal-esque reasons; there were plenty of reasons to criticize it, and unfortunately a lot of its detractors choose to focus on stuff that's either really beyond "is this a good movie or not?" or have to introduce retrograde politics into the discussion.

Good point on Marvel, though; I really don't get excited for those movies anymore (though the Guardians ones are solid), but they know how to elicit the desired response from their fanbase, clearly. They've got a formula, and they know how to use it.

Very well said! I agree there are valid criticisms towards Last Jedi. There's a difference to me in some of the criticism. I guess I don't consider it a 'bad' movie even though there's a lot I'd personally change. But I judge things differently, lol. I think many of us are frustrated by the franchise and maybe a bit burnt out. I mean, they're considering a Boba Fett movie. My God. Make it stop. And I love Boba Fett.

Very much agreed on Marvel. It helps there's source material of course. So they know what to give you as a fan. Star Wars needs a plan and direction. I get why many are frustrated.

 

[Kman101]

I won’t have as much to say about this as others but I can sum up my thoughts like this:

1) The Last Jedi was a HUGE disappointment for me. The story, aside from the cohesiveness, was simply abysmal. The treatment of the original cast was just sad and Poe’s entire storyline was a complete throwaway.
2) Apparently the use of the Force no longer requires any real training, as well as for the use of a lightsaber.
3) Rian Johnson should not have been given the reigns to an entire trilogy. After seeing TLJ, he doesn’t “get” Star Wars.
4) Bob Iger should realize that Star Wars is not Marvel. People the are brought up on comics are used to constant storyline and character bombardment. Star Wars is not that. I grew up with the original trilogy. Each movie was to be cherished and seen as a true event. You can’t have that with two movies a year, and animated and live TV shows.
5) Kathleen Kennedy and Co. need to worry less about being progressive and more about great generational stories. Concoct a great story first and your progressive beats can follow naturally.

Ha! I guess I had more to say than I thought.

I also feel Last Jedi had a LOT of hype around it. Many overhyped it. Rian was overhyped. And fans were thusly let down. Star Wars needs a singular guide. It doesn't need different directors for each movie. Or at least work together ...

 

[Kman101]

I liked the movie so I felt they did okay. Are there better ways? Sure.

I thought TLJ would have been a much better send off for Leia than Luke.

I think a big let down was the fact that Luke was discarded and Leia won't be around. Fans are angry. And I get it.

I would have loved more Leia in the first movie back but her lack of airtime doesn't mean it was a 'bad' movie. I guess I look at 'bad' differently.

One of the problems is they're trying to do too much with too many people and a lot of it was ultimately pointless.

 

[Kman101]

Box office returns are pointing to a dud.

As expected.

Maybe they'll rethink that Boba Fett movie idea now.

 

[Kman101]

For me, I never connected with Rey, Finn, or Poe. There's nothing that makes me want to root for those characters. That's just me though.

Poe is woefully underused.

I like them. But have I really connected with them? Thinking about it I'd agree with you and say no to that.

 

[Kman101]

You’re right- on paper, this was a smart move, but in actuality, this was very bad. If Disney didn’t want to plan these things out every three years (the formula we were used to), they could have done something like every 2 years. Star Wars isn’t like Marvel, the formula isn’t there for 2-3 movies a year (after they finish Phase 3 and the Fox deal is finalized, I hope the total films per year stays at 3). I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I’ve got Star Wars fatigue, and that’s a problem.

I feel you on the fatigue.

Marvel at least feels like you're going on this loooooooong journey and there's a payoff. Again, they do it right and check off all the right boxes to please the fans and it's paid off in big numbers for them. I think that's why fatigue for Marvel hasn't set in (although I know many on here are sick of it and Star Wars).

 

[the.dreamfinder]

You’re right- on paper, this was a smart move, but in actuality, this was very bad. If Disney didn’t want to plan these things out every three years (the formula we were used to), they could have done something like every 2 years. Star Wars isn’t like Marvel, the formula isn’t there for 2-3 movies a year (after they finish Phase 3 and the Fox deal is finalized, I hope the total films per year stays at 3). I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I’ve got Star Wars fatigue, and that’s a problem.

I’m really curious as to what happens with Galaxy’s Edge next year. Hogsmeade has a real WOW to it and one wonder with the things Disney is planning, hello, premium tickets, if there won’t be a backlash.

 

[Kman101]

I’m really curious as to what happens with Galaxy’s Edge next year. Hogsmeade has a real WOW to it and one wonder with the things Disney is planning, hello, premium tickets, if there won’t be a backlash.

Will they care if there's a backlash? I mean they're selling a $300 package to see Pixar Pier (which won't even be completed until next year!). My God. Can you imagine the cost for Star Wars previews?

 

[the.dreamfinder]

I feel you on the fatigue.

Marvel at least feels like you're going on this loooooooong journey and there's a payoff. Again, they do it right and check off all the right boxes to please the fans and it's paid off in big numbers for them. I think that's why fatigue for Marvel hasn't set in (although I know many on here are sick of it and Star Wars).

There was a degree of training the audience to accept so many films a year too and they now use that to tell very different stories.

 

[Dunston]

Star Wars fans on the internet are so odd to me. They will like dedicate their lives to Star Wars, have tattoos of it, Lego sets, models, posters, etc. And then they hate every new Star Wars thing that comes out, because of nitpicks or not liking 1 character or something. First George Lucas ruined Star Wars. Now it's Disney/Kathleen Kennedy who's ruined Star Wars (and people are starting to say the prequels are "underrated gems"). If the franchise has been "ruined" since 1999, why do they keep coming back to buy Star Wars toys and shirts and pens and suitcases and bath mats and whatever else the Millennium Falcon can be slapped onto?

Solo was entertaining. It didn't change the face of modern cinema or anything, and it didn't have to. If movie is entertaining, it serves its purpose enough imo. In Solo's case, it's a serviceable space opera adventure/heist movie that drags a little towards the end. Sure, Ansel Elgort wasn't spot on portrayal of Harrison Ford in dialogue, but then again who could be? It's a pretty tall order to expect some guy to replicate the man who defined 80's action movies. I honestly feel it is a stronger movie than Rouge One because the characters were actually memorable, and the movie stands on its own (as a standalone spinoff should) rather than relying on a movie from 1977 for its conclusion and justification for existence. What I mean by this is that Rouge One, as a story and as a film, would not be cared for if it was a space war movie and not Star Wars. The story of Solo could totally be separated from the whole Star Wars universe and stand on its own as an okay space adventure. This will not matter to most fanboys who shreik and howl like chimpanzees when Darth Vader turns on his lightsaber.

I think that the low box office returns are a sign of Star Wars fatigue already setting in. If there are new Star Wars movies releasing only six months apart, then returns on these "event" movies are going to diminish. I'm curious as to why this hasn't happened to Marvel yet, and I'm guessing it's because the Marvel Universe has more diverse possibilities than Star Wars, which is honestly a rather limited universe. Especially limited when every movie needs to have the same ships, storm troopers, and light sabers we've been seeing since 1977 so an auditorium of cheering adults can cheer when they see their favorite space ship in a movie trailer.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Will they care if there's a backlash? I mean they're selling a $300 package to see Pixar Pier (which won't even be completed until next year!). My God. Can you imagine the cost for Star Wars previews?

Star Wars backlash is a very special kind of backlash. The backlash to TLJ has endured for over five months and that film will always be defined by it.

 

[britain]

I’m thinking that Solo is facing a perfect storm of opposition:

Only six months have passed since the last Star Wars movie. Now only 3 months passed between black panther and infinity war. But that is an example of a franchise ramping up to a climax. Not only is Solo coming after the Last Jedi, but it’s clear that Solo is not another vital piece to a puzzle like say any individual Marvel movie might be in the long Avengers storyline. “What clues might Ant Man and the Wasp hold to Avengers 4?” Solo offers no such link.

Also, Black Panther was universally beloved, while the Last Jedi has been controversial for the fanbase. I think the TLJ controversy is overblown in the echo chamber of social media, the Last Jedi was still an amazingly successful movie. But the zeitgeist of the moment is that Star Wars might make nerds argue but everyone loves Marvel. Especially since Solo has “Disney greed / Alden’s acting / Prequelitis“ question marks hanging over the film rather than Kevin Fiege’s midas mojo.

The troubled production + being so close to TLJ kept Lucasfilm from being able to drum a steady beat of positive anticipation in the year leading up to the release. It might not be Star Wars fatigue as much as Star Wars surplus stepping on Solo’s toes.

Finally, it’s a competitive summer rather than being the only big movie opening around Christmas (getting the side benefit of toy marketing). Lots of people are going to Deadpool 2, and even Avengers still. Rogue One had no such competition.

It’s my hope that the studios take these lessons to heart rather than place the blame on Alden (he was wonderful and carried the film perfectly) or the premise (The Adventures of Han and Chewie should be - in theory- a much stronger draw than Kenobi or Boba Fett).

Personally I think it’s a wonderful movie, one of my very favorites. If 15 years after Revenge of the Sith, Solo had been the rebirth of Star Wars instead of TFA, I have no doubt it would have been a mega blockbuster that everybody loves.

 

[Princess Leia]

Poe is woefully underused.

I am with you 100% on this. I like Finn and Rey, but Poe is the only character whose story makes sense over the 10 day period of TFA and TLJ.

I feel you on the fatigue.

Marvel at least feels like you're going on this loooooooong journey and there's a payoff. Again, they do it right and check off all the right boxes to please the fans and it's paid off in big numbers for them. I think that's why fatigue for Marvel hasn't set in (although I know many on here are sick of it and Star Wars).

There was a degree of training the audience to accept so many films a year too and they now use that to tell very different stories.

The nice thing about the Marvel films is that while they cross over, the stories they tell have their own mini arcs, and with their own sets of characters. Like, if you only watched the Iron Man series + the Avengers series. Or just the Guardians movies. I remember reading that there were people whose first Marvel film was Black Panther, and they had no idea it was part of the MCU.

Something that works for Marvel (that doesn’t seem to be working for Lucasfilm) is that directors are able to add their own flair and style to the films (minus Edgar Wright ), and most of the directors seem to actually understand and love the characters. The Russos know Steve Rogers inside and out, just like James Gunn is with the Guardians. Rian Johnson just didn’t have that connection for TLJ (though I think JJ Abrams and Gareth Edwards both knew their characters pretty well).

I’m really curious as to what happens with Galaxy’s Edge next year. Hogsmeade has a real WOW to it and one wonder with the things Disney is planning, hello, premium tickets, if there won’t be a backlash.

The mega fans will most likely pay for all upcharges.

 

[Princess Leia]

Yikes.

 

[MisterPenguin]

For those who deride any woke direction of Star Wars in the recent films, may I remind you of a scene from A New Hope...

"We don't serve their kind here."​

If you don't know that that is an allusion to...