A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

John park hopper

Well-Known Member
I understand this line of thinking, and I don't think it's completely wrong - but I do think it doesn't take into account the whole picture as it relates to WDW.

Sure, a motel during busy tourist season at some beachfront town will run you $100-150/night.

Yeah, a hot dog and beer at a sporting event will cost $20.

No doubt, you totally can spend $200-300 on a prime seat at a concert for the top artists in the world.

However...

...when you stay at the beach motel, the beach is free and you can pack a lunch from some local grocery store.

...you aren't eating three square meals a day at a sporting event (and if you are smart, you aren't even eating one).

...you aren't going to concerts every day for a week straight.

Most of the places that people can say "well of course it's spendy, it's a tourist trap!" are referring to one or two aspects where various businesses leverage a proximity advantage.

At WDW, it's a trifecta of inflated lodging, food, and admission prices that last from the moment you set foot on property until the moment you leave. I honestly cannot think of any place else that gets away with this. The closest I can think of is Manhattan - but even there, you have choices - you can grab a couple of dirty dogs or slices and a drink for lunch for $5. There are many free/cheap things to do to fill your day, even if you splurge on Broadway tickets for that night. And it's not a single company trying to milk every cent out of your bank account, either.

Not even Disneyland compares - at Disneyland, you can literally just walk across the street and go to Denny's for a decent priced meal, and just a block or two away there are places like a very well-kept and contemporary Motel 6, that is as good as a Disney Value resort in quality but far less walking, for $50/night.

Now, that's all before you even talk about the declining offerings and measurably less value that these ever increasing prices are buying - from reduced park hours, reduced benefits (FP vs. FP+), increased reliance on nearly slave-wage workers (CP) who largely have dragged down the service given by your average CM's, and all the little cost-cutting things from maintenance of rides and public areas and yes, even to things like unique park-branded paper products (I still have the napkins from my first MK and EPCOT visits in a scrapbook because I thought that was so neat and cool).

And it is measurable. Take DDP, for instance. A few years ago @ParentsOf4 did an extensive analysis of the DDP when it launched versus now. It's basically 1/4 of the value it once was. It costs twice as much and gives you half of what you used to get.

Eventually, this bubble is going to burst. It's already showing signs. People are having less kids, particularly those people with financial means, and Disney can't keep relying on them just forking out because it's a "right of passage" forever. Even five years ago, not a single week went by when I didn't know someone going to WDW, and now - even when they are going to FL, many skip it. When they say where they are going and I ask about Disney, they are like "yeah, we are skipping it - too expensive, and there is so much else to do in Orlando" because Disney has based their entire pricing model to make spending a few days there versus a full week nonsensical, and has engineered things as best they possibly could to discourage you from ever leaving the boundaries of the resort.

They are even losing "pixie dusters" - I know a "Disney Mom" type family who went to WDW at least twice yearly for a week each time, and know where they are as I type? Paris. And in a few days they are off to Spain. And it's not because they were bored with WDW. It is because they looked at how much they were spending at WDW to stay at a moderate for a week and were like, "Um, we could do a multi-city European tour for the same cost". Disney finally met their breaking point.

Star Wars land is going to be a huge litmus test. It will be very interesting to see how people treat it. On one hand, it seems obvious to say - this increased price/reduced value has only just begun. But here is the rub - there is definitely a cross-pollination of Disney/Star Wars fans. But by and large - when you read non-Disney boards that discuss Star Wars, you see that more often than not - Star Wars fans (rightly or wrongly) despise Disney for one reason or another - either as a company or the parks, and quite often both.

These people will be drawn to Star Wars land in epic, unprecedented numbers, no doubt in my mind - but the question is - are they going to do it as part of a week at WDW as the WDW business model is designed to extract from them? The new starship hotel is trying to hedge on this bet - that those folks will pay through the nose for a two-day experience. But unless they build a bunch of them, it's still not going to defer the amount of people who literally just care about SWL.

My guess is, the Studios are going to skyrocket in attendance - but it's not going to spill over to AK/Epcot, or get them to spend a week on property. It's probably even going to suck away some of the Teflon-coated MK attendance, replacing it as the "if you only spend one day at Disney..." park for many. When you boil it down, it's just going to be two rides in a single land, easily done in a single day. (That's why Universal was brilliant with connecting Potter and their two parks.) That's also why MK keeps increasing in attendance - the "Orlando" vacation with a few days at Disney that once was popular was replaced with a WDW-only vacation due to MYW, but because of Universal the tides have been shifting the other way for quite some time already.

Disney's goal in building SWL is to bring more people to spend a week at the resort itself - but I have a feeling it's going to benefit the greater Orlando area more than it's actually going to keep people spending at Disney for their entire trip, because spending a week on property is so outrageously expensive at this point and people are getting savvy enough to realize this. I honestly believe it's going to push people over that edge - the biggest increase (aside from merchandise) is going to be single day tickets more than anything else.


TL;DR? WDW can only maintain these practices for so long - outside of Disney fans, the general public perception of WDW has gone from "wow, it's not cheap but the quality of everything is worth it, I was amazed at the level of service and once you are there, all experiences are included" to "crazy overpriced crowded tourist trap nickel-and-diming you with upcharges" - and even Star Wars may not be able to sustain the resort business model that Disney is already pushed to it's upper limits. In terms of overall bringing people to Orlando, it's probably going to end up benefiting Universal and other non-Disney Orlando as much as Disney.

Great post, IMO you are so on target. I can say first hand my three sons now grown do not have the desire to visit WDW as we as parents did, even though they went frequently as kids. They vacation in Mexico, Europe, sking in Colorado etc. I wonder how many others in the 25- 38 age group feel the same, went as kids pass as adults. When a mickey mouse ice cream on a stick costs $5 and a muffin in the food court costs $5 etc etc etc.I have to ask why. In years past we went and ate on site, now we bring stuff for breakfast and lunch and try to cut costs where we can. IMO WDW business model during the 70s-90s guests were most important now IMO profit over guests is the business model. I am sure many will disagree with my view.
 
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MotherOfBirds

Well-Known Member
The new pricing has really disappointed me. I had every intention of celebrating my graduation with with some friends via a single-day drunken Epcot victory lap, which turned out to be prohibitively expensive for all involved. F&W has been largely out of the question for the last 5 years for the same reason. A Disney wedding was also a viable prospect until a couple years ago. I've become keenly aware that TDO only cares about guests that are able and willing to drop an absurd amount of money.
 

UpAllNight

Well-Known Member
I really don't know how anyone can say that. The pace at which they add things is incredible. And what they add is of good quality or better - I mean, come on, look at the garbage that passes for "new" at WDW. Universal isn't adding sing-a-longs and or glorified fashion shows as content. Yes, they are too screen heavy for my personal tastes, but come on...when you look at what they have added since 2010 and what Disney has added, it's pathetic all the way until Avatar. Granted, it seems like things are changing for the better WDW - but Universal has done remarkably.

Let's not forget - and one can go back on this very board and read posts from five, ten years ago - when people laughed at the notion that Universal would ever even be considered in the same attendance league as any Disney park. Well, they have doubled their attendance since 2010 - somehow brought a whole new audience to this supposedly "saturated" market - at the same time all but the MK at WDW have had stagnant attendance.

They haven't been perfect (Jurrasic Park needs another E-ticket so badly it hurts) but they certainly have done very, very well - and the Potter lands are still the most themed and detailed lands in Orlando.

I won't ever argue their rate of expansion is anything other than impressive. I visited in 2000 as a kid and not again until 2015, and Universal seemed fresh, vibrant and like it had undergone a complete transformation for the better, whilst Disney was astonishingly stale (thinking back to pre D23 in 2015 when not even Star Wars or Toy Story had been announced, Avatar, Frozen, new soarin etc weren't open). My argument is that since 2014-now Universal have not taken a good direction with their investment. Fallon, F&F along with the closing of twister and Disaster have tipped the balance too far in the screen direction, Hulk was a wasted opportunity, I think largely most people agree Kong serves a purpose but should have been much better than hyped up to be, and Volcano Bay has issues to this day. I love that they're in a much better place than they have been but I stick with my feeling that they've made bad decisions over the past few years and when they had their greatest opportunity to hammer it home, they took their foot off the gas and become complacent....they started to believe their own hype rather than exceeding expectations. Admit, honestly, if anything they've done since Diagon exceeds those lofty standards they looked like they were aiming for...because Kong & Volcano Bay are major misses in my eyes.

Again, the investment is there...but I question their recent direction, and quality of product. It's still ahead of most people in the game...but they get a bit of a free ride and quality is being ignored for quantity.
 
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thehowiet

Wilson King of Prussia
Sorry... I've heard of both plans. I'd assume only one will happen.
I think a third gate at UNI would be great, but I think they need to round out the two current parks first. I love what UNI has been doing, but a few of the older areas of their parks are now more obvious and need to be brought up to their more recent standards IMO.

Any idea on a timeline for a decision on this?
 
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UpAllNight

Well-Known Member
I feel like Uni need Nintendo to anchor the 3rd park, along with Dreamworks, and they should focus their investment over the next few years on some of Marvel, J Park, Toon Lagoon, adding an E to Seuss, and doing something different with Kidzone. How long they sit on Nintendo will depend on what timescale they plan on getting this 3rd park up...they will want something more substantial than a single potter addition to go up against Star Wars but I feel 2019/2020 is now already out of the question for Nintendo at USF, even at the speed they build at.
 

imperius

Well-Known Member
I feel like Uni need Nintendo to anchor the 3rd park, along with Dreamworks, and they should focus their investment over the next few years on some of Marvel, J Park, Toon Lagoon, adding an E to Seuss, and doing something different with Kidzone. How long they sit on Nintendo will depend on what timescale they plan on getting this 3rd park up...they will want something more substantial than a single potter addition to go up against Star Wars but I feel 2019/2020 is now already out of the question for Nintendo at USF, even at the speed they build at.
Nintendo has more properties outside of the three involved in the initial plans. Pokémon can anchor the third park with 0 issues.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Sorry... I've heard of both plans. I'd assume only one will happen.
Well Nintendo has many IPs that are very different from each other. It could easily have multiple lands across different parks.
Nintendo has more properties outside of the three involved in the initial plans. Pokémon can anchor the third park with 0 issues.
This.

To round it all out they should use The Legend of Zelda to replace Lost Continent.

Three lands, three parks, all very different from each other.
 
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IanDLBZF

Well-Known Member
My argument is that since 2014-now Universal have not taken a good direction with their investment. Fallon, F&F along with the closing of twister and Disaster have tipped the balance too far in the screen direction, Hulk was a wasted opportunity, I think largely most people agree Kong serves a purpose but should have been much better than hyped up to be, and Volcano Bay has issues to this day.
Totally agree, I mean I haven't been to Universal since the late 1990s (back when they were good), but having seen the overhype of their approach and now them closing Terminator 2 3D, it seems like, in my opinion, Universal is now losing it's stand, especially when compared to AVATAR which has opened recently at AK.
I mean look at Universal what is was in the 1990s vs what is today. I am not very happy with Comcast right now as far as Parks and Resorts go.
 
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imperius

Well-Known Member
Totally agree, I mean I haven't been to Universal since the late 1990s (back when they were good), but having seen the overhype of their approach and now them closing Terminator 2 3D, it seems like, in my opinion, Universal is now losing it's stand, especially when compared to AVATAR which has opened recently at AK.
I mean look at Universal what is was in the 1990s vs what is today. I am not very happy with Comcast right now as far as Parks and Resorts go.
Huh? The parks are far better than they were. Avatar isn't hurting Universal and was Disney's response to Diagon/Hogsmeade. Then Star Wars will come and then Nintendo. Comcast saved Universal and is doing great things there.
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
"My name's George Kalogridis and this is Jackass"
CB1528B1-4235-4D4C-8611-18AEE95C30CB.jpg

Photo Credit: @ruthgoodwin on twitter
 

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