A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

[Hatbox Ghostbuster]

I just want to say that when Empire Strikes Back came out, I bought the sound track on 8-track cassette. It came with a special printed insert with an interview with John Williams. In that interview, Williams said that Lucas showed him the stories for all 9 movies. He said all 3 trilogies were to have a unique look and feel to them, with the middle trilogy being action/adventure, the prequels being more mysterious with political intrigue, and the sequel trilogy was to be more “science fiction” oriented. We got maybe pretty much of what was planned for the prequels, but we are not getting what was planned for the sequels. That is very sad.

This is an interesting story...
I just finished Lucas' biography and I find it very hard to believe he showed Williams the actual stories for all 9 films. Mostly because I don't think even Lucas knew what those were. ESB came out in 1980. He wouldn't release Ep 1 for almost another 20 years. It's highly suspect he had anything more than blue sky "ideas" about things. Obviously, I'm not saying JW is a liar...but I don't think we can believe he was shown in-depth treatments.

I will say though that I found it interesting that in negotiations with Iger, one of Lucas' conditions for making new movies was that Disney follow his story notes for Ep 7,8,9. Iger basically said "sure"...then once the deal was made, threw them in the garbage.

Point is, there was no masterplan/blueprint for this new trilogy. RJ has gone on record to say as much. That is largely why the bulk of fans feel like TLJ "ruined" SW. Because it didn't adhere to what they wanted it to be. That doesn't make it a bad movie. It just means fan's got their hopes up for something and the filmmaker made his vision instead.
(What does Luke say in the trailer again? "This is not going to go the way you think.")
Your opinions are yours, and valid. But let's stop pretending like Disney told RJ, "this is how the story is supposed to go", and he just ignored it.

Lastly, let's also not forget, Lucas chose to hire KK to succeed him as CEO. So, if you're going to sit around and blame KK for the current state of SW, maybe your blame should fall on GL for putting her in charge in the first place.

 

[FrankLapidus]

Sounds like what happened in Lost. Let's have a bunch of mysterious stuff and then try to figure what it means later. You can tell that's what happened a lot, especially between seasons.

Except that Abrams' involvement with Lost pretty much ended very early in its first season. He seems to get blamed a lot for the perceived problems with the series when he was pretty much hired to write and direct a pilot, create a starting point from which a series could be developed, and then he moved on. He was key in creating a couple of Lost's key mysteries, like the "Monster" and the polar bears that were introduced in the first couple of episodes, but any fault for mis-steps that occurred later on lies with Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse - Abrams was long gone by that point.

 

[Hatbox Ghostbuster]

Lost: Even the writers have no idea where this is going.

Lost is a hilarious example of how NOT to create a mythology show.
Sure it worked (mostly ahem::LAST SEASON::ahem) but its just a bad example to follow.

Basically, they made the pilot with no idea what was to come, not even sure it would go to series.
Then they ended S1 with no idea if they'd get picked up for S2, and no end-game.
It really showed.

 

[FrankLapidus]

This was more of a response to J.J. Abrams' lazy writing for The Force Awakens. Abrams tried to disguise underdeveloped characters and events as deep mysteries to be uncovered later. Since he wasn't supposed to direct any of the later films, it meant someone else would figure out what he was either too lazy or not creative enough to do in the first place. I read a report where Johnson asked Abrams who Snoke was. Abrams said he didn't know, so Johnson decided it didn't matter. He didn't throw out J.J's precious mystery boxes to anger the fans, hee did it because he wasn't going to do J.J. Abrams' homework for him.

I think that's more down to Lucasfilm's lack of foresight than it is lazy writing on the part of either Abrams & Kasdan or Johnson; there should have been the structure of story put in place before TFA that would have carried through the new trilogy, something to guide whoever was hired to write and/or direct.

 

[HMF]

I think that's more down to Lucasfilm's lack of foresight than it is lazy writing on the part of either Abrams & Kasdan or Johnson; there should have been the structure of story put in place before TFA that would have carried through the new trilogy, something to guide whoever was hired to write and/or direct.

Maybe they should have believed GL when he said that there was no story after Episode VI.

 

[FrankLapidus]

Maybe they should have believed GL when he said that there was no story after Episode VI.

George Lucas had one and offered it to them, Disney/Lucasfilm threw it away.

 

[bclane]

This is an interesting story...
I just finished Lucas' biography and I find it very hard to believe he showed Williams the actual stories for all 9 films. Mostly because I don't think even Lucas knew what those were. ESB came out in 1980. He wouldn't release Ep 1 for almost another 20 years. It's highly suspect he had anything more than blue sky "ideas" about things. Obviously, I'm not saying JW is a liar...but I don't think we can believe he was shown in-depth treatments.

I will say though that I found it interesting that in negotiations with Iger, one of Lucas' conditions for making new movies was that Disney follow his story notes for Ep 7,8,9. Iger basically said "sure"...then once the deal was made, threw them in the garbage.

Point is, there was no masterplan/blueprint for this new trilogy. RJ has gone on record to say as much. That is largely why the bulk of fans feel like TLJ "ruined" SW. Because it didn't adhere to what they wanted it to be. That doesn't make it a bad movie. It just means fan's got their hopes up for something and the filmmaker made his vision instead.
Your opinions are yours, and valid. But let's stop pretending like Disney told RJ, "this is how the story is supposed to go", and he just ignored it.

Lastly, let's also not forget, Lucas chose to hire KK to succeed him as CEO. So, if you're going to sit around and blame KK for the current state of SW, maybe your blame should fall on GL for putting her in charge in the first place.

You make some great points but I don’t think the bulk of fans think TLJ ruined Star Wars. There is certainly a lot of people that hate the movie but the majority of fans seem to either be at least mixed on it or really like it. Just my opinion based on what I’ve read and experienced.

 

[peter11435]

Maybe they should have believed GL when he said that there was no story after Episode VI.

George says a lot of conflicting things

 

[peter11435]

George Lucas had one and offered it to them, Disney/Lucasfilm threw it away.

If Episodes 1-3 are any indication then we are all better off for it.

 

[Hatbox Ghostbuster]

You make some great points but I don’t think the bulk of fans think TLJ ruined Star Wars. There is certainly a lot of people that hate the movie but the majority of fans seem to either be at least mixed on it or really like it. Just my opinion based on what I’ve read and experienced.

You'd be surprised how much I read that very sentiment in the week following the release.

 

[HMF]

George Lucas had one and offered it to them, Disney/Lucasfilm threw it away.

Thus why they are making it up as they go along. This is what happens when you have things designed by committee rather than the vision of an individual artist.

 

[FrankLapidus]

Thus why they are making it up as they go along.

They could have quite easily found someone else to outline a story for the new trilogy if they didn't want to use Lucas'.

It's just shoddy and short-sighted management on the part of Kathy Kennedy and Lucasfilm IMO.

 

[Hatbox Ghostbuster]

They could have quite easily found someone else to outline a story for the new trilogy if they didn't want to use Lucas'.

It's just shoddy and short-sighted management on the part of Kathy Kennedy and Lucasfilm IMO.

Well, again, Lucas wanted Kennedy in charge...so maybe blame for short-sightedness needs to fall on Lucas himself.

 

[Progress.City]

Of course it was intentional. I do not think he could "accidentally" leave it out. I did see the tweet. Perhaps it wasnt very mature, but I am sure there is a reason. And to be fair, the Snoke theories are all over the place. People really want a long detailed background story and I do not think its gonna happen. A few lines of dialogue can explain everything. He is most likely trying to soften the blow.

The background story to Palpatine is HUGE! And we get no such story out of Snoke?! I took screenplay writing courses in college and a big thing they teach is development of background stories for each character. So, a lack of background story equals poor writing.

Also, a few years ago, I had the pleasure to talk to Timothy Zahn — the first author of a Star Wars sequel trilogy. In addition to Lucas being upset that Disney didnt use his stories, Zahn is bitter as well. There’s just so much material they could have used!

 

[The_Jobu]

And the critics' scores from RT and Metacritic was 80%.

Yeah the critic scores. The people scores on the other hand...

 

[HMF]

Also, a few years ago, I had the pleasure to talk to Timothy Zahn — the first author of a Star Wars sequel trilogy. In addition to Lucas being upset that Disney didnt use his stories, Zahn is bitter as well. There’s just so much material they could have used!

Well, what do you expect from Disney under Iger's $$$$$-minded leadership

 

[FrankLapidus]

Well, again, Lucas wanted Kennedy in charge...so maybe blame for short-sightedness needs to fall on Lucas himself.

Not for me - Lucas walked away at the takeover, Kathy Kennedy shouldn't have needed to be told that it might be a good idea to outline a story for the new trilogy before it began.

Particularly when she's shown a concerning propensity for hiring writers and directors she clearly doesn't trust or know enough about, if her habit of micro-managing and firing them during her relatively short tenure as head of Lucasfilm is anything to go by.

 

[Hatbox Ghostbuster]

The background story to Palpatine is HUGE! And we get no such story out of Snoke?! I took screenplay writing courses in college and a big thing they teach is development of background stories for each character. So, a lack of background story equals poor writing.

Also, a few years ago, I had the pleasure to talk to Timothy Zahn — the first author of a Star Wars sequel trilogy. In addition to Lucas being upset that Disney didnt use his stories, Zahn is bitter as well. There’s just so much material they could have used!

My mind is fuzzy since I haven't seen ESB or ROJ in a while, but how much of Palpatine's backstory did we get IN ESB or ROJ? I know he was a prominent figure in the prequels.

Likewise, when we meet Yoda, how much backstory do we get? The rules in trilogies are different than that of a more traditional stand-alone film (I took screenwriting courses too).

 

[Hatbox Ghostbuster]

Well, what do you expect from Disney under Iger's $$$$$-minded leadership

Weird...I didn't say that.

 

[The_Jobu]

It just felt more like a Star Trek movie than a Star Wars movie.

Heh.
As a Star Trek fan that had to suffer with JJ turning the franchise into Star Wars, this quote almost makes me want to see TLJ.