A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

TeriofTerror

Well-Known Member
how novel.


like to think that all this recently may give a would-be predator pause...
but deviance is pervasive around the world, not merely hollywood.

yet many instances are so distinct, it's hard to speak in generalities
I think the point is that instead of focusing on teaching women how to protect themselves or - god forbid - how to avoid "tempting men", maybe we'd be better off teaching males that if they sexually assault anyone, the assaultor is to blame.
No one deserves to be sexually assaulted, period. No one is "asking for it". Are some of the accusers lying? Undoubtedly. But in every case where it happened, the perpetrator is at fault. Whatever the "temptation", you used your position of power to attack another human being.
 

drizgirl

Well-Known Member
Are some of the accusers lying? Undoubtedly. But in every case where it happened, the perpetrator is at fault. Whatever the "temptation", you used your position of power to attack another human being.
But in cases where it's "he said/she said" (especially those from decades ago) how do you ever figure out which cases are which?
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
And animals don’t try to dominate others which would pretty much be equivalent to overpowering?

This all goes back to what we as a species used to be and in some ways still are. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. We’re animals.
It is far more complex than our "animal natures".

The rape culture women endure on a daily basis is one that was created and written into our social hierarchy and structures of power. Systems designed and controlled by men, for the benefit of men.

With 1 in 4 women being raped or sexually assaulted within their lifetime, this matter impacts all of us on a daily basis. But, we, as a society, have chosen to ignore it until recently.

Why would we choose not to pay attention to the warning signs sent out by oppressed victims that only now, thanks to this movement, have the ability to stand together against their oppressors?

It isn't just women that are victims of this toxic philosophy. The differently abled, People of Color, members of the LGBTQ+ community, all have been victims, to varying degrees, of the patriarchy ingrained in colonial western thought. We are all taught it, reared into it, consume it through our media and our social interactions...and it is disgusting.

It only survives because we allow it.

We must allow them a voice, we must give them the proper spaces to cope and to heal, and we must empower them to fight back against those who would hold them down.

The way to move forward is to speak up about your stories. Shame others, stop laughing at offensive racist and sexist jokes, stop allowing women to be objectified by the male dominated media and workplace, and allow the oppressed not only an equal, but louder voice, at the table.

Become involved in organizations that actively promote equality, become involved in your child's education to ensure that proper lessons are taught, from consent in sexual education courses to historical systems of privilege and oppression in history courses. Teach them about microaggressions, and how, even innocuous things they do or say, might cause others discomfort, at best, and actively discriminate, at worst.

We, quite literally, need to undo decades and centuries of male dominated concepts of consent. And to do that, we need to tear down the walls erected to support those who fight against it, for their own benefit.

It is up to you to teach your children, especially young boys and men, that their advances, jokes and even, at times, presense are not appropriate, not welcome, and, even if not physical, are an assault upon their victims.

They must recognize their privilege, be it racial, gender or economic, and actively work to reject it to resolve the sins of the past. Only then can we, as a society, move forward with true equality.
 
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spacemt354

Chili's
And animals don’t try to dominate others which would pretty much be equivalent to overpowering?

This all goes back to what we as a species used to be and in some ways still are. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. We’re animals.

Edit: there’s a reason that another term for a rapist is “sexual predator.”
I think we need to be careful about simplifying this complex issue down to a singular reason.

Social structures, environments, drugs/alcohol, mental status all contribute too.

As humans we have evolved beyond the primitive brain with structures that enable us to think critically and process things in a multi-factorial way that other species can't comprehend. This isn't something that is only innate and can't be stopped.
 

smile

Well-Known Member


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Hakunamatata

Le Meh
Premium Member
I think the point is that instead of focusing on teaching women how to protect themselves or - god forbid - how to avoid "tempting men", maybe we'd be better off teaching males that if they sexually assault anyone, the assaultor is to blame.
No one deserves to be sexually assaulted, period. No one is "asking for it". Are some of the accusers lying? Undoubtedly. But in every case where it happened, the perpetrator is at fault. Whatever the "temptation", you used your position of power to attack another human being.
Let us not forget that its not just males that are sexual predators. Plenty of females are predators as well.
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
And animals don’t try to dominate others which would pretty much be equivalent to overpowering?

This all goes back to what we as a species used to be and in some ways still are. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. We’re animals.

Edit: there’s a reason that another term for a rapist is “sexual predator.”
Thanks, I feel this is fundamental to the debate. We as humans are driven by the urge to reproduce. As humans in an evolved society we are coerced into thinking it is all choice and we can conduct ourselves in a non threatening manner at all times but the base urges take over.
Nothing excuses this but it does explain why we have predators among us. We can enact all the laws we want but the base human/animal urges will prevail. Some can control it but many cannot and some even revel in it. The next step will be to embrace or revile it but at least it comes to the surface after years of being buried.
Hope we can keep the focus on those with power who have used it to pursue their base instincts and expose them for the animals they are. It is in us all but the majority choose to conform to societal norms and not act on those instincts.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Let’s throw some cold hard facts on this before it gets vicious.

Consider the following article on false rape accusations from Quartz.
https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations/

Now, some facts:
FACT: Academic studies put the false report rate between 2-10%. (UMass Boston/Northeastern U paper, cited by Quartz)

FACT: The majority of rapes are not reported to law enforcement. (US DoJ)

FACT: SIX in one thousand rapists will go to jail for their crime. (US DoJ)


This IS real, unlike imagined notions of armies of “victims” rushing to falsely accuse individuals of rape.

Go back to the original sources. Several of these have been thoroughly debunked. I don't think this is the place to get into this, and to be honest, I'm already sick to death of seeing the topic everywhere so I'm not going to get into debate - but to get you started, for example, the things you believe are purportedly "conclusions from the DoJ" are based on one report they did about a tiny study done in a single neighborhood in a major city (if I recall correctly, Chicago, and was actually about gang intimidation). And people have spun it into some absolute universal fact by sheer repetition.

You simply cannot automatically trust sources like those that you have cited that depend on donations and funding for their existence. "Non-profit" just means the company itself doesn't make money, not that lots and lots of people who work for them aren't interested in keeping their salaries and funding levels as high as possible, even if it is because they do good work. That's why you need to look at the real data, not how it's being interpreted for you by places like Rainn, or SPLC, etc.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pop-psych/201601/exaggerating-statistics-about-rape
 
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Mike S

Well-Known Member
stop laughing at offensive racist and sexist jokes, stop allowing women to be objectified by the male dominated media and workplace,
I read it all but I want to address these two points.

#1: I’m a man who appreciates his comedy. I laugh at any joke if I find it funny, even Jew jokes which would be “at my own expense.” I’m able to tell who’s really trying to hurt and who’s just telling some off-color jokes. I’m also a firm believer that if everyone was able to laugh at themselves the world would be a much better place.

#2: You know that’s not going to happen. I think you also know that there’s an equal image of an “ideal man” in media just as much as the “ideal woman.” I’m a pretty skinny guy and at work, which sometimes involves heavy lifting, I’ve been told plenty of times (while they laugh) that I should go work out. Do I mind? No, not really, because I still get things done. I agree that women may be pushed more but the point still stands.

I’m all for standing behind the victims and taking these people down. My only point with the animal nature was to illustrate where this behavior comes from at its basest level. No matter what we do this won’t be eradicated completely. You can’t fight nature. There will always be people that are especially aggressive. Back in time this aggressive nature helped them reproduce more. It may have also helped in hunting. Now, it’s viewed very differently and isn’t viewed as the way to do things but that doesn’t change the fact that some people are born wired this way. Until we can stop it at that level, it will always be a problem.
 
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Pixieish

Well-Known Member
I’m also a firm believer that if everyone was able to laugh at themselves the world would be a much better place.

Agree with this 100%. I will be the first one to burst into hysterics the minute I choke on my own spit or trip over air. People have actually mistaken my laughter at me having fallen flat on my face for me being hurt because I was laughing so hard no noise was coming out. :joyfull:
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
I read it all but I want to address these two points.

#1: I’m a man who appreciates his comedy. I laugh at any joke if I find it funny, even Jew jokes which would be “at my own expense.” I’m able to tell who’s really trying to hurt me and who’s just my buddy telling some off-color jokes. I’m also a firm believer that if everyone was able to laugh at themselves the world would be a much better place.

#2: You know that’s not going to happen. I think you also know that there’s an equal image of an “ideal man” in media just as much as the “ideal woman.” I agree that women may be pushed more but the point still stands.

I’m all for standing behind the victims and taking these people down. My only point with the animal nature was to illustrate where this behavior comes from at its basest level. No matter what we do this won’t be eradicated completely. You can’t fight nature. There will always be people that are especially aggressive.
But, what your comments ignore is the systematic obstacles faced by those you so glibly tell to "pick themselves up by the bootstraps", with your comments.

#1 When a joke is made that disparages any individual, it just isn't funny. That is being a bully. Now, I'd expect you to feel this way, as this is a natural result of the male-domineered colonial society we live in today. But, you really need to look past this superficiality, and see how it victimizes and oppresses people who may take offense at it. This ranges from body shaming, to nerd shaming, to joking about criminal acts.

You are not the judge and jury of what people find offensive. Just because you may find it "funny", doesn't mean that it actually is. Many jokes are used as tools by the bully culture to oppress those who do not fit into sociative norms, and therefore rob them of their ability to participate equally in society.

#2 Depictions of "ideal men" are drastically less common than the ideal woman. Even "unattractive" female characters are still not exempt from the concepts of beauty forced upon women by the very nature of those doing the producing, which overwhelmingly are men...to market to those who have, by design, the most economic power...men.

You really need to sit back and look into systemic privilege and oppression, and the lasting impact of western colonization to truly understand this.

I hope you do, because true support for victims means that you shouldn't question them in any way, nor excuse away those who victimize them.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
But, what your comments ignore is the systematic obstacles faced by those you so glibly tell to "pick themselves up by the bootstraps", with your comments.

#1 When a joke is made that disparages any individual, it just isn't funny. That is being a bully. Now, I'd expect you to feel this way, as this is a natural result of the male-domineered colonial society we live in today. But, you really need to look past this superficiality, and see how it victimizes and oppresses people who may take offense at it. This ranges from body shaming, to nerd shaming, to joking about criminal acts.

You are not the judge and jury of what people find offensive. Just because you may find it "funny", doesn't mean that it actually is. Many jokes are used as tools by the bully culture to oppress those who do not fit into sociative norms, and therefore rob them of their ability to participate equally in society.

#2 Depictions of "ideal men" are drastically less common than the ideal woman. Even "unattractive" female characters are still not exempt from the concepts of beauty forced upon women by the very nature of those doing the producing, which overwhelmingly are men...to market to those who have, by design, the most economic power...men.

You really need to sit back and look into systemic privilege and oppression, and the lasting impact of western colonization to truly understand this.

I hope you do, because true support for victims means that you shouldn't question them in any way, nor excuse away those who victimize them.
Jeez, now I remember why I stay out of this stuff. Yeah, let’s sterilize the entire world. That’s totally possible. It’s not like forcing this type of repression would have any other adverse side effects. We’ll all be around a campfire singing cumbayah.

My last piece of advice is don’t let idiots get into your head. There will always be idiots. And yes I do sympathize with the victims of rape and other forms of sexual assault even if you think my other views are somehow contrary to that.
 
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spacemt354

Chili's
I’m all for standing behind the victims and taking these people down. My only point with the animal nature was to illustrate where this behavior comes from at its basest level. No matter what we do this won’t be eradicated completely. You can’t fight nature. There will always be people that are especially aggressive. Back in time this aggressive nature helped them reproduce more. It may have also helped in hunting. Now, it’s viewed very differently and isn’t viewed as the way to do things but that doesn’t change the fact that some people are born wired this way. Until we can stop it at that level, it will always be a problem.
Again, you are simplifying a more complex issue. What you are spreading is a common myth thrown around as scapegoat answers so we as a society don't actually have to come face to face with the reality.

There is little, if any, scientific evidence that biological theorists have to support these claims. And studies done in more well-known, aggressive populations such as the indigenous Waroni in Ecuador, have actually found the opposite to be true. Aggressive males in this study didn't actually acquire more wives or children than mild mannered control males.

Also this theory of 'nature' and 'evolution' doesn't account for predatory behavior of men to men, women to men, men/women to children. They only focus on male to female. So in my view, the evolution theories are garbage excuses.

This isn't something that can be solved in a few sentence response, but it can be written off as 'nature' in that equal length, and has been for decades, rather than addressing the societal issues.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Again, you are simplifying a more complex issue. What you are spreading is a common myth thrown around as scapegoat answers so we as a society don't actually have to come face to face with the reality.

There is little, if any, scientific evidence that biological theorists have to support these claims. And studies done in more well-known, aggressive populations such as the indigenous Waroni in Ecuador, have actually found the opposite to be true. Aggressive males in this study didn't actually acquire more wives or children than mild mannered control males.

Also this theory of 'nature' and 'evolution' doesn't account for predatory behavior of men to men, women to men, men/women to children. They only focus on male to female. So in my view, the evolution theories are garbage excuses.

This isn't something that can be solved in a few sentence response, but it can be written off as 'nature' in that equal length, and has been for decades, rather than addressing the societal issues.
You just said it yourself. Predatory. As in, the Predator and Prey dynamic among animals. Some people are just really screwed up in what they view as prey. It’s sick. This same thing extends to all the shootings by the way.

The reality is that the world sucks and will continue to suck. Fix one thing and many more societal problems will pop up in its place because there will always be terrible people. Utopia is a pipe dream and “it’s a small world” fits in Fantasyland for a reason.

Just find what makes you happy and live until you die. That’s my philosophy anyway.
 
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englanddg

One Little Spark...
You just said it yourself. Predatory. As in, the Predator and Prey dynamic among animals. Some people are just really screwed up in what they view as prey. It’s sick.
The prey are oppressed groups who don't have equal representation in general culture, who are told they are to be laughed at, to be ignored...

Whose voice is removed from society because they exist. Be it their race, their sexuality, their gender or gender identity.

The difference between humanity and animals IS that we can control our base animal instincts. To allude that men cannot do so, is obviously incorrect.

But, that doesn't remove that men are not beneficiaries of the systems that have been set up to place them at the top of every measurable stack, even if they don't directly contribute to it.

And, this goes back to established social science. The cisgendered, white patriarchy established through genocidal historical colonial actions against most of the worlds population by a limited few who seek to control the means of production by influencing society at large through media, societal and economic controls...is starting to collapse.

You are either part of the revolution for human rights, or you are a deplorable, ignorant...who seeks to support those who seek to oppress you.
 

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