A little info on the Fantasyland Expansion.

IWant2GoNow

Well-Known Member
I was of the impression that the movies were under performing.

Being the father of a little girl, I don't mind the Pixie Hollow stuff. I really don't... but I think the changes are for the better. If they find a place for a meet and greet it just makes my life easier and keeps my family out of line for the rest of ya'll.

Yea I felt that the old PH concept was cool, but seemed like too much real estate taking up FLE East. I wouldn't have minded it being added but I'm glad they are looking at scaling it back.

Now I think Dumbo is taking up too much real estate. :lol:

Spinners, Barnstormer, Casey Jr... I hope that is it for Dumbo personally.
 

TalkingHead

Well-Known Member
Lee (or anyone else), are you thinking that the M/G set-up that would replace Snow White's dark ride could be what Staggs was referring to when he said in the OrlSen, “We also wanted to make sure that we’re designing something that was flexible, in the fact that it’s something that could play host to any number of celebrations or events or shows, etc., over time…"

Maybe the Snow White replacement will be something more than a M/G, something that includes a show space that is intended to change over time, perhaps a place intended to showcase characters from new movies as well as the older princesses...
 

Hakunamatata

Le Meh
Premium Member
Lee (or anyone else), are you thinking that the M/G set-up that would replace Snow White's dark ride could be what Staggs was referring to when he said in the OrlSen, “We also wanted to make sure that we’re designing something that was flexible, in the fact that it’s something that could play host to any number of celebrations or events or shows, etc., over time…"

Maybe the Snow White replacement will be something more than a M/G, something that includes a show space that is intended to change over time, perhaps a place intended to showcase characters from new movies as well as the older princesses...

Sort of a multi-purpose facility sort of like what the Diamond Horshoe Review building is serving maybe.
 

hoke2007

Active Member
The splash mountain comment is really throwing me off. Could anyone maybe help me here? Are we looking at a massive rehab/redo of Splash Mountain? Or another attraction near Splash Mountain? HELP! :ROFLOL:
 

Captain Neo

Well-Known Member
I have had two sources strongly hint, and one say straight out, that SW is going to close.
The two that hinted, also hinted that the princesses would be taking up residence in that space. Whether or not it is their permanent home, I don't know.
(I know you have heard an alternate rumor. When I passed that rumor along to sources is when I got the SW info.)


If Snow White is replaced with a big meet & greet than that means we are down a ride so in order to balance things out FLE must add not one, but TWO new rides in addition to Little Mermaid to make up for the lose of Snow White.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
I have had two sources strongly hint, and one say straight out, that SW is going to close.
The two that hinted, also hinted that the princesses would be taking up residence in that space. Whether or not it is their permanent home, I don't know.

That is so weird. They just did work on the Snow White ride at Disneyland to add some amazing digital projection effects to some of the scenes in the ride, and it brilliantly freshened up that 1980's technology to 2010 standards.

You would think the Snow White ride in WDW, using similarly old technology, would get the same upgrades, not an outright gutting to be turned into a Meet N' Greet location.

And yet, this seems to line up with the Al Lutz news a few weeks ago when he said... "With Tom Staggs now firmly in charge of Disney Parks and Resorts, the girl-centric Fantasyland expansion for Magic Kingdom that was very heavy on Princesses and very light on testosterone was called into question early this summer. The Beauty and the Beast restaurant and the Little Mermaid ride are still a definite go, but the girly Princess meet n’ greets are on thin budgetary ice now and subject to additional cuts,..."

It should be fascinating to see what develops for FLE by the end of the year. I assume there is a time crunch here to get this approved and slotted in to the rapidly approaching 2011 construction schedule, so they don't still have heavy construction nearby when they open the Mermaid and BATB facilities in 2012. But losing a classic dark ride in Snow White, in a park that has a tiny handful of classic dark rides to begin with, seems to be a step backwards not forwards.

Unless, of course, what replaces the original Meet N' Greets in the center of the land is a totally awesome E Ticket of some sort. :lookaroun
 

_Scar

Active Member
That is so weird. They just did work on the Snow White ride at Disneyland to add some amazing digital projection effects to some of the scenes in the ride, and it brilliantly freshened up that 1980's technology to 2010 standards.

You would think the Snow White ride in WDW, using similarly old technology, would get the same upgrades, not an outright gutting to be turned into a Meet N' Greet location.

And yet, this seems to line up with the Al Lutz news a few weeks ago when he said... "With Tom Staggs now firmly in charge of Disney Parks and Resorts, the girl-centric Fantasyland expansion for Magic Kingdom that was very heavy on Princesses and very light on testosterone was called into question early this summer. The Beauty and the Beast restaurant and the Little Mermaid ride are still a definite go, but the girly Princess meet n’ greets are on thin budgetary ice now and subject to additional cuts,..."

It should be fascinating to see what develops for FLE by the end of the year. I assume there is a time crunch here to get this approved and slotted in to the rapidly approaching 2011 construction schedule, so they don't still have heavy construction nearby when they open the Mermaid and BATB facilities in 2012. But losing a classic dark ride in Snow White, in a park that has a tiny handful of classic dark rides to begin with, seems to be a step backwards not forwards.

Unless, of course, what replaces the original Meet N' Greets in the center of the land is a totally awesome E Ticket of some sort. :lookaroun

Was Al Lutz clueing at Snow White when he said "thin ice"? :lol: If so, awesome!

And the space that the mystery theme will occupy is plenty big for an e-ticket when comparing it to TLM.
 

Lee

Adventurer
If Snow White is replaced with a big meet & greet than that means we are down a ride so in order to balance things out FLE must add not one, but TWO new rides in addition to Little Mermaid to make up for the lose of Snow White.

I don't follow your math.
I see it as:
Closing SWSA, but opening Mermaid plus another D or higher, still leaves a gain of 1 ride. (1 1/2 if you count Dumbo.)
 

_Scar

Active Member
I don't follow your math.
I see it as:
Closing SWSA, but opening Mermaid plus another D or higher, still leaves a gain of 1 ride. (1 1/2 if you count Dumbo.)


So, do you even know what this mystery ride is?

If you do, is it an original?
 

csm

Well-Known Member
I saw a newer version of the blueprints, it might help answer a few questions

a1h3ww.jpg

Look Smithers! Garbo is coming!
 

David S.

Member
I have had two sources strongly hint, and one say straight out, that SW is going to close.
The two that hinted, also hinted that the princesses would be taking up residence in that space. Whether or not it is their permanent home, I don't know.
(I know you have heard an alternate rumor. When I passed that rumor along to sources is when I got the SW info.)

(This post is not directed specifically at Lee, and I thank him for his info.)

As far as my thoughts on the possibility of losing Snow White - in the immortal words of Darth Vader....

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I, for one, will be DEVASTATED if we lose our Snow White's Adventures dark ride! It's in my MK Top 10, and it's a classic found in EVERY MK-style "Castle Park" in the world (except, of course, Hong Kong, which is missing more classics than they have!) If we lose this ride, we become less like Disneyland and more like Hong Kong, which is not a good thing, in my book!

IMO, the current WDW version of Snow White BLOWS AWAY the first WDW version from 1971! The original focused on the witch too much for my taste and ONLY focused on the dark elements of the story.

The current version strikes a faithful balance between the light and dark elements of the film, and is not only more faithful to the film than the first WDW version, it is more faithful to the film than ANY version of the ride that has ever existed!

Compared to the DL version, WDW has the much better happy ending scene, which is my favorite scene in the entire ride! DL's is somewhat awkwardly tacked on at the end, whereas WDW's has the nice buildup where you see Snow White about to be awakened by the Prince, with the lovely choral version of "Some Day My Prince Will Come" playing. And then you see Snow White and the Prince waving goodbye to the dwarfs, and Dopey waving goodbye to guests from a bridge up above you, next to some cute birdies and a squirrel! (or is it a chipmunk) ;) I always enjoy waving bye to Dopey on the way out!

I do realize that WDW has the better, longer, beautiful ending scene simply because there was more room for it based on the order and placement of the earlier scenes, and because WDW had a lot of space left over at the end since the original finale was cut - but still, it's there, and this ending allows the ride to emotionally resonate with me better than the DL version.

I also love how the fun cottage scene with the dwarfs provides a nice break from the early dark scenes, just as the film had these charming, fun, lighter moments as well.

Also, the scenes in the WDW version stick closer to the order they occur in the original film, which is also a strength of the WDW version.

Lastly, I LIKE the fact that the witch appears less in the WDW version, as I prefer spending time with the dwarfs, the animals, and Snow White rather than the old hag! These are the characters I actually LIKE in the movie ;)

If anyone is interested, here is an AMAZING page that gives a complete breakdown and thorough review of all 4 classic Snow White dark rides worldwide, as well as every past iteration of these rides (including the original WDW version)

MAIN PAGE: http://www.kennetti.fi/snowwhitescaryadventures.html
PAGE FOR WDW's CURRENT VERSION: http://www.kennetti.fi/swscary_10.html

As a fan of the Fab 5, I'm already (in the online minority) disapointed that we are losing Toontown. People always talk about the "cheap tents" but for me, I hardly ever go in the tents. For me, the gems of Toontown that will be heartbraking to lose will be Mickey's House and Minnie's House, with their whimsical, colorful, "squash and stretch" architecture; and charming interiors with layers and layers of details, funny gags, charming propping and placemaking, unique audio (WACKY Radio, Minnie's answering machine, etc.)

Lastly, I LOVE the music loop in Toontown, with all those wonderful arrangements of those fun and whimsical classic scores and songs from the Silly Symphonies and Fab 5 character shorts (such as "Funny Little Bunnies", "The Country Cousin", "Who's Afraid Of the Big Bad Wolf", "Steamboat Willie/Turkey In The Straw", etc)

Toontown is yet another thing that has become part of the design of a "Castle park" (missing only in Paris and again, Hong Kong) that is STAYING in DL, and in a nicer version than WDWs, as well (with the Roger Rabbit dark ride, downtown section, and Chip and Dale's Treehouse in the suburban section - although I do think Goofy's Barnstormer is better than Gadget's Go-Coaster because it can run two trains and is themed to a more "classic" and better-known character).

For years I've wanted the rumored Little Mermaid ride to finally give us another Fantasyland dark ride, and also give us a long-awaited replacement for 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. But for me, getting this at the expense of Toontown and possibly Snow White would mix sadness with the joy. WHY must they ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS INSIST on taking something away everytime we get something new?

There is nearly 30,000 acres to work with here, "TDO". The legendary man you are named after, Walt Disney, said "Here in Florida, we have something we've never had at Disneyland - the blessing of size. There's enough land here to hold ALL the ideas and plans we can possibly imagine"!

We should have NEVER even lost our Toad ride. TDO pretended the ONLY way they could find room for Pooh was to tear down Toad. I clearly remember online fans on Usenet newsgroups were posting satellite photos of all the extra land that they are NOW expanding on, while "experts" were posting that this land couldn't be used because it was too close to the fireworks! But we could have clearly kept our Toad and STILL gotten Pooh!

TDO Commandment - "Thou shalt not ever, ever, ever, ever, under any circumstances, have more than three dark rides based on a Disney Animated Classic film in your Fantasyland! Pay no attention to that park across the country that has FIVE in their Fantasyland, plus Roger in Toontown and their Pooh is in Critter Country for a total of SEVEN!

Current Animated Classic Darkride Score - DL 7, MK 3. THIS IS PATHETIC, TDO!

I don't want to get too upset about this possible Snow White removal until we know for sure, but if it happens, combined with losing Toontown, taking a year off from WDW for a LONG AWAITED return to Disneyland is looking more and more appealing, especially after the DCA makeover is complete in around 2012/2013.

They are only missing a few iconic "Castle park" classics that can be found in MK - Country Bear Jamboree, Mickey's Philharmagic, Carousel of Progress, and Peoplemover (although I have a hunch the Peoplemover will return soon in some capacity)

By contrast, the following classic attractions found in Disneyland are MISSING from the MK, or could be/will be soon:

Pinocchio's Daring Journey
Alice In Wonderland
Mr. Toad's Wild Ride
Casey Junior Circus Train
Storybook Land Canal Boats
Sleeping Beauty Castle Diorama
Matterhorn Bobsleds
Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage
Enchanted Tiki Room (Walt's original show)
Indiana Jones Adventure
Sailing Ship Columbia
Davy Crocket Explorer Canoes
Original Main Street Attractions (Cinema and Arcade)
Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Spin
Chip and Dale's Tree House
Mickey's House (closing soon in MK)
Minnie's House (closing soon in MK)
Donald's Boat (closing soon in MK)
Gadget/Barnstormer (re-themed soon in MK)
Snow White's Adventures (could be closing soon in MK)

This to me, is a HUGE difference in favor of DL. Too bad I'm a 3 days drive away and HATE flying!

SAVE SNOW WHITE'S ADVENTURES!
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
This to me, is a HUGE difference in favor of DL. Too bad I'm a 3 days drive away and HATE flying!

You should see the new version of Disneyland's Snow White ride that debuted a couple weeks ago. They have these amazing digital projectors in the ride that add very impressive effects to the entire rooms in the Witch transformation scene and the finale scene. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6eDOP9R220&feature=related

And that makes it even odder that Snow White in WDW would be heading towards Yesterworld. They upgrade it at Disneyland in 2010, and close it at WDW in 2011? And in the Magic Kingdom that only has three classic dark rides to begin with (Peter Pan, Pooh, Snow White), compared to seven classic dark rides at Disneyland (Peter Pan, Pooh, Snow White, Alice in Wonderland, Pinocchio, Mr. Toads, Roger Rabbitt).

It's a very odd move to make, unless they are confident the replacement for the Princess Meet N' Greets in the middle of FLE is going to be really great. Still, it's bizarre that they would take out an existing ride to add meet n' greets.

As for the dislike of flying, how about the train to Anaheim? Amtrak's Southwest Chief from Chicago and the Sunset Limited from New Orleans both stop in Fullerton, a short taxicab ride or Surfliner ride from Disneyland. The Coast Starlight from Seattle arrives in LA daily, with connecting Surfliner service to Anaheim. Is the train an option for you?
 

Wilt Dasney

Well-Known Member
If anyone is interested, here is an AMAZING page that gives a complete breakdown and thorough review of all 4 classic Snow White dark rides worldwide, as well as every past iteration of these rides (including the original WDW version)

MAIN PAGE: http://www.kennetti.fi/snowwhitescaryadventures.html

Thank you for this link!

I have the complete opposite view of you, in that I find the original "scary" iterations of the ride at DL and WDW far more interesting than the ones there now, so I'm always interested in reading about the past versions of the Snow White rides.

(I remember being TERRIFIED of the original MK version as a little boy and basically burying my head in my mom's lap when I was dragged onto it...but I'd kill for the chance to see such a strange, relentlessly dark ride — no pun intended — in a Disney park through older eyes.) :lol:
 

David S.

Member
You should see the new version of Disneyland's Snow White ride that debuted a couple weeks ago. They have these amazing digital projectors in the ride that add very impressive effects to the entire rooms in the Witch transformation scene and the finale scene. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6eDOP9R220&feature=related

Yes, I heard about that! I do love our Happily Ever After scene though. But why not "plus" our version with the effects and have (from my POV) the best of both worlds?!

And that makes it even odder that Snow White in WDW would be heading towards Yesterworld. They upgrade it at Disneyland in 2010, and close it at WDW in 2011? And in the Magic Kingdom that only has three classic dark rides to begin with (Peter Pan, Pooh, Snow White), compared to seven classic dark rides at Disneyland (Peter Pan, Pooh, Snow White, Alice in Wonderland, Pinocchio, Mr. Toads, Roger Rabbitt).

It's a very odd move to make, unless they are confident the replacement for the Princess Meet N' Greets in the middle of FLE is going to be really great. Still, it's bizarre that they would take out an existing ride to add meet n' greets.

I completely agree, especially from my point of view about loving the Disney Animated Classics! The way "Potterheads" have a passion for Potter, and Star Wars fanatics feel about Star Wars, my "film franchise" that I am most passionate about is the Disney Animated Classics (which explains my love of Fantasyland). The FL darkrides are all favorites of mine, and I find them short, sweet, and charming distillations of these classic films into a shorter artform that you can ride through! Some fans are critical of their "first generation" "busbar" technology, cutouts, (at times) limited animation in the figures, etc. But I still get into the stories being told, their heart, their music and the charm of these rides, and as you pointed out, they CAN be given impressive technological upgrades without losing the essence of the story being told!

Still, maybe my "rant" was a little premature, since nothing has been announced yet. But in my years (mainly) lurking around here, I've always considered Lee a good source, and since he said he didn't want to post anything on FLE until he was confident in his info, that's why I'm concerned! ;)

As for the dislike of flying, how about the train to Anaheim? Amtrak's Southwest Chief from Chicago and the Sunset Limited from New Orleans both stop in Fullerton, a short taxicab ride or Surfliner ride from Disneyland. The Coast Starlight from Seattle arrives in LA daily, with connecting Surfliner service to Anaheim. Is the train an option for you?

I appreciate your feedback and for reading my long-winded post far enough to get to that part! :)

Actually, I'm OK with long, multi-day drives, as I've done them before (although you are correct, the train would be my second choice!). But the 3 days drive to DL versus 9 hours to WDW was a pretty big factor in why I chose Orlando to move to after Katrina instead of Southern Cali (assuming I would fulfill my lifelong dream of having unprecedented access to a Disney resort and beloved "Castle park".). Because being in Florida made it much more feasible to return home to visit family and friends in NOLA several times throughout the year in just 9 hours, as well as take care of anything I needed to do there.

I'm still in Florida seasonally, which is even further from DL! So when I'm there as you can imagine, knowing I'm a few minutes drive away from a "Castle park", there's even less incentive to go all the way across the country, although as you can tell, there are a few things I prefer about DL over the MK. Well, many things ;)

There have actually been a few windows in the past couple of years where I wanted to go to DL, but something was always closed. I know it's great that they do more rehabs and maintenence there, and that it draws more locals than WDW. But I always feel, for example "well, if I'm going to do a once in a decade trip all the way across the country and haven't been there for awhile, do I really want the Rivers Of America drained when I'm there" (as was still the case the last time I flirted with the idea this past spring)

And then with the DCA thing, I know they are a few steps away from finishing an amazing transformation that IMO will clearly put it ahead of Hollywood Studios when complete! So I think, "if I go now, I will JUST MISS the new DCA!"

Also, being a hard core "parkie", I don't want to go all that way and not take full advantage of all the things that are there that cater to my biggest hobby. So I will need enough time to do SEVERAL days at DL, and also visit DCA a lot, Knott's Berry Farm, Magic Mountain, use my Busch pass at Sea World, visit San Diego Zoo, the wooden coaster at Belmont Park, and go up to the Bay Area and hit Marine World, Great America, and Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk. Plus if possible, take in some of the beautiful scenery like the coast, Yosemite, the Sequoias, etc. So I'm really looking at a minimum month-long trip to do all this, at a time when there are no major rehabs going on at DL, and after the DCA expansion is complete.

When all those factors are in place, I'm there! With my car! :)

PS. Another thing I would like about DL (if I lived in the area) is the much-talked of higher ratio of locals! ;) I bet you guys feel a much greater sense of "ownership" of the parks. And you guys get all those great premieres of the restored Animated Classics at the El Capitan... and D23 conventions.... and the Walt Disney museum in the Bay Area.... :)

And don't get me started on the weather! I remember you made a pretty eloquent post recently about how you could feel the oppresive heat and humidity of Florida in the summer just from looking at the photos that had been posted (or maybe it was a video). I wanted to respond, but didn't get around to it. I've lived in the deep south my entire life, and am STILL not used to the summer heat! I have a northerner's aversion to the heat and tolerance to the cold. 90 degrees is Pure Torture for me (especially when the humidity drives the Heat Index WAY higher), and I'm comfortable in shorts and a T-shirt down to around 50 degrees if the wind is calm! I'm basically an outdoors lover who retreats to my 68 degree indoor AC in the summer! :)

So that's another area where I'd give DL the advantage, in the weather category, as the summers are not as brutally hot or as humid there.

Having said all these nice things about Disneyland the park at the expense of the MK, to be fair and balanced, I will point out that I really, really, love Epcot and Animal Kingdom, (and to a slightly lesser extent, the Studios), and the resort as a whole. The MK is still my favorite park at WDW, but it is easy to compare it to Disneyland since it is based on it, and I just feel that Disneyland does a lot of things better and amazingly has more attractions (and more classics) with less room to work with than MK!
 

David S.

Member
Thank you for this link!

I have the complete opposite view of you, in that I find the original "scary" iterations of the ride at DL and WDW far more interesting than the ones there now, so I'm always interested in reading about the past versions of the Snow White rides.

(I remember being TERRIFIED of the original MK version as a little boy and basically burying my head in my mom's lap when I was dragged onto it...but I'd kill for the chance to see such a strange, relentlessly dark ride — no pun intended — in a Disney park through older eyes.) :lol:

Well, I've always been more into the "cute" and "Happily Ever After" elements in these films/rides more than the dark and horrifying stuff! (I've never been into horror or villains)

For my taste, I just feel the current version strikes a better balance between the two, just as the film does. I could never get into that first version nearly as much as I can this one, even when I was a teenager.

But as they say, "different strokes!" :)

I'm glad you enjoyed the link! It's a really good, thorough read that a lot of effort and research clearly went into. One of the members of UltimateDisney.com posted that link a few years ago, and I remember staying up late one night reading through the whole thing!
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
If that's the case then I guess I'm alright with it. Still seems like a lot of open area in North FLE West...

Unless they are just updating TTF and keeping it with the circus theme... *sigh* :(

I have nightmares like this

Yea, I suppose, but I really think the updated Pixie Hollow will be implemented with this FLE. I can't seem them planning to add it later in 10+ years. Possible I guess, but not wise for them.

Agreed!

I hope not...this stupid Fairies "franchise" is not nearly as timeless as everything else we have heard about recently regarding the FLE...

All of the circus theming in FLE seems largely like a filler (esp. since the theme to TTF already has circus tents--this would be a relatively cheap project that would still leave room in the future for further expansion, as needed).

Disney is doing a live action Tink movie similar, I expect, to the recent Alice movie. As I have said before, the genre is timeless and universal because all children are so mesmerized and captivated by these miniature worlds. Even most adults enjoy anything scaled down from bonzai to die-cast cars. I can't explain the psychology but it is rather profound.

And the last thing WDW needs with the FLE is a sense they took the cheap way out on anything. It will be assumed Staggs is a step backwards just another bean counter. They have not gone cheap at DCA version 2 and the crowds reflect that.

Yea but if the DVD movies are selling as well as a few people have said they are then I can understand why they would need to make a larger M&G for Tink & friends. I realize they will end up dying off as most fads do, but it makes sense to me because, regardless of DVD sales, kids want to meet Tink and the lines at the current Pixie Hollow prove that as well as merch sales on Tink. So expanding that can only help merch sales I would think.

As I said, it can never die off, it will just get repackaged. And if Disney does not decide to exploit the genre somebody else will. But it is obvious the WDC is just getting started with it.
 

aladdin2007

Well-Known Member
You should see the new version of Disneyland's Snow White ride that debuted a couple weeks ago. They have these amazing digital projectors in the ride that add very impressive effects to the entire rooms in the Witch transformation scene and the finale scene. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6eDOP9R220&feature=related

And that makes it even odder that Snow White in WDW would be heading towards Yesterworld. They upgrade it at Disneyland in 2010, and close it at WDW in 2011? And in the Magic Kingdom that only has three classic dark rides to begin with (Peter Pan, Pooh, Snow White), compared to seven classic dark rides at Disneyland (Peter Pan, Pooh, Snow White, Alice in Wonderland, Pinocchio, Mr. Toads, Roger Rabbitt).

It's a very odd move to make, unless they are confident the replacement for the Princess Meet N' Greets in the middle of FLE is going to be really great. Still, it's bizarre that they would take out an existing ride to add meet n' greets.

As for the dislike of flying, how about the train to Anaheim? Amtrak's Southwest Chief from Chicago and the Sunset Limited from New Orleans both stop in Fullerton, a short taxicab ride or Surfliner ride from Disneyland. The Coast Starlight from Seattle arrives in LA daily, with connecting Surfliner service to Anaheim. Is the train an option for you?

Yep happy 40th Anniversary in 2011, losing an original it sounds like.
 

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