On layoffs, very bad attendance, and Iger's legacy being one of disgrace

[_caleb]

Careful opening of certain gates allow some of the animals to feed themselves. And, as a bonus, less overall mouths to feed.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

A Disney vacation isn't expensive if you save properly. I don't know why people demand the supposed industry leader charge cheap admission. Look at the kind of guests SeaWorld attracts because their admission is so cheap. I love that park but the people who visit....yikes.

Most Americans have little to no savings...and because credit was widely pushed/embraced at the end of the 20th century...savings aren’t required for many purchases. But the bill comes due.

I’m not saying I disagree with your stance...it just isn’t the way it goes.

 

[BubbaisSleep]

A Disney vacation isn't expensive if you save properly. I don't know why people demand the supposed industry leader charge cheap admission. Look at the kind of guests SeaWorld attracts because their admission is so cheap. I love that park but the people who visit....yikes.

Hmmm, not expensive but you need to save properly to go? Sounds expensive to me

 

[_caleb]

These Tweets by two people who seem to know about this kind of stuff (one a former forum member) seem relevant:

When was the last time Eddie Sotto was actually in Disneyland? Zephyr is a carnival ride that has to shut down if there’s even a hint of wind and Jolly Trolly in Toontown (A land with more broken things than working things) was ignored for years and closed down in 2003.

 

[ElvisMickey]

Yeah, which are awful and should be bulldozed. No chance of that happening to Toy Story Land, but Dinoland will probably be eliminated eventually (Primeval Whirl being closed permanently seems like the first step).

But the point (or at least my point) wasn't that regional parks are cheap and terrible compared to Disney or anything remotely along those lines. It was just that they are mainly focused on roller coasters and other thrill rides where the physical experience is all that matters. That's fine (tons of people enjoy it) but it's not what Disney is doing (or attempting to do). Disney couldn't compete with that even if they wanted to, because those parks already have tons of huge coasters. They'd always be playing catch-up, and there'd be little reason for people to travel to Disney just for coasters when they have a regional park that's just as good or better.

If your main interest is coasters, Disney isn't really for you.

I’ve never been a coaster person either. Six Flags, Busch Gardens, etc. are a bit of a snoozefest for me. Once in a while to enjoy the day is fine, but definitely not looking for annual passes. It’s funny, when I lived in NJ, I LOVED going to Hershey, PA for long weekends. I would go at least twice a year. But I never liked Hersheypark. It’s always just been, boring to me. I DO love the town, museum, restaurants, the spa lol, etc. But Hersheypark is mostly coasters and some other stuff. It’s nothing like Disney at all. Anyway, despite not being a coaster person, I WILL do the ones at Disney. I’m a huge Aerosmith fan so RNR is a must. But the older I get, the more I just want to chill and keep it low key at the parks.

 

[_caleb]

Which is incredibly unfortunate. Not that the ride itself is bad, but the whole exposed track and theming is a major failure and part of the reason Toy Story Land is so terrible. If Disney pivoted to building a lot of rides like Slinky Dog I'd probably stop going.

I agree. Why didn’t they AT LEAST try to theme the track and supports look like something Andy would have built? Hot Wheels track? Erector Set? LEGO? Even some old lamps and furniture would have gone a long way to enforce the concept.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I agree the marketing is out of control. However, building an attraction should still meet the need no matter how it is marketed. But for all the complains about capacity being removed, they added Little Mermaid to Fantasyland and kept Carousel of Progress and Peoplemover open, but mostly just get "meh" reactions from people. Deciding they need more mid-tier attractions, and building mid-tier attractions that can actually entice a crowd and drive revenue are two different things. It's a rare occasion indeed when a mid-tier attraction can actually pull its weight.

But yeah... as others have said part of the problem is the huge costs of WDI Attractions.

Mid-tier attractions aren’t supposed to entice a crowd. That’s why they have so largely been abandoned. There purpose is to provide capacity and help fill out a day. They’re not something you plan a trip around but they increase satisfaction with the entire experience. The big problem with single-price admission is that no attractions directly drive revenue. It’s all based on correlation and surveys. A modest ride drives satisfaction with the day which drives revenue in souvenirs (happy people not overly focused on having the get their next ride buy more stuff), return visits and sharing the experience with others. The focus on driving obvious revenue is how parks have headed down the vicious cycle of having to build something that draws crowds but then not having enough capacity, so new rides have to be bigger and more expensive which just means they’re expected to bring in more people. When a modest ride like The Little Mermaid is attempted it can’t just be a nice addition to the day because it ends up costing $150 million.

 

[_caleb]

Mid-tier attractions aren’t supposed to entice a crowd. That’s why they have so largely been abandoned. There purpose is to provide capacity and help fill out a day. They’re not something you plan a trip around but they increase satisfaction with the entire experience. The big problem with single-price admission is that no attractions directly drive revenue. It’s all based on correlation and surveys. A modest ride drives satisfaction with the day which drives revenue in souvenirs (happy people not overly focused on having the get their next ride buy more stuff), return visits and sharing the experience with others. The focus on driving obvious revenue is how parks have headed down the vicious cycle of having to build something that draws crowds but then not having enough capacity, so new rides have to be bigger and more expensive which just means they’re expected to bring in more people. When a modest ride like The Little Mermaid is attempted it can’t just be a nice addition to the day because it ends up costing $150 million.

The cost isn’t the only thing that keeps The Little Mermaid from being a nice addition.

 

[_caleb]

All I'm saying is that if you think Disney is expensive, you must not get out and do much of anything. Of course, I routinely drop hundreds of dollars on concert tickets (RIP) which are only valuable for 2-3 hours max, so my concept of cheap vs expensive is skewed.

Concerts are another thing where the value is completely dependent on personal taste. I can’t imagine spending hundreds of dollars on concert tickets. Which, by the way, is why I don’t go to concert fan websites and post about how dumb concerts and concert attendees are.

 

[easyrowrdw]

But wasn't it Chapek who was against re-opening when the pandemic was going on? AND the guy who doesn't agree with Iger that Splash Mountain should be rethemed?

Prior to the announcement I don't think Florida had very bad numbers. And in the call I think Chapek said something about having solid bookings until the Covid numbers went absolutely crazy. So I find it difficult to believe he didn't want to open, much less other alleged disagreements between Chapek and Iger.

 

[BubbaisSleep]

All I'm saying is that if you think Disney is expensive, you must not get out and do much of anything. Of course, I routinely drop hundreds of dollars on concert tickets (RIP) which are only valuable for 2-3 hours max, so my concept of cheap vs expensive is skewed.

I think you’re thinking quite selfishly though. Yes, I as an adult male with a decent job & no kids can save up over time for an expensive trip to Disney. I do a lot of traveling as well and I still think Disney is highly expensive, especially if you don’t have a love for theme parks. I’ve been to many music festivals these past few years too. Those too are things for singles & couples. Try buying EDC tickets for a family of 4.

I agree with you about the price being where it needs to be to bring among a higher quality of guests. Most don’t spend $300 on a ticket and want to act disorderly. That’s a lot to lose, unlike Sixflags & Seaworld.

 

[BubbaisSleep]

Good point. Thankfully I don't have children so I'm not wasting my money there so it's easier to save

Life is so much better. Keep it up. I know I will!
I will continue to be another statistic of a childless millennial who needs to stop going to Disney

 

[HollyAD]

I think you’re thinking quite selfishly though. Yes, I as an adult male with a decent job & no kids can save up over time for an expensive trip to Disney. I do a lot of traveling as well and I still think Disney is highly expensive, especially if you don’t have a love for theme parks. I’ve been to many music festivals these past few years too. Those too are things for singles & couples. Try buying EDC tickets for a family of 4.

The more money I make the more I realize that Disney is expensive. Maybe I am just older now or maybe I have traveled more and see what I can get for my money in other places. I can't imagine if I had multiple children how much Disney could cost me. We do love the parks and I just go there expecting to spend some $$$$$ For someone to say it's not expensive is a little out of touch with the average American family. I have been working in poorer parts of my state for COVID recently and I have been absolutely humbled and have never been more grateful for my ability to travel.

 

[el_super]

Mid-tier attractions aren’t supposed to entice a crowd. That’s why they have so largely been abandoned. There purpose is to provide capacity and help fill out a day.

They have to entice enough of a crowd to justify their existence. Even under the pay-one-price model, all the math of turnstile numbers and maintenance costs still apply. The capacity has to be used to be of any value, and that's where they seem to be having the biggest trouble. It's incredibly difficult to plan for a mid tier, attraction that can pull enough demand to justify its continued maintenance costs. That's especially true for WDI, trying to operate under a "reasonable" budget.

I think the only thing we disagree on is what is driving that abandonment. You seem to think that this was purposefully driven by Disney, and on that I disagree. The need to build the biggest, the fastest, the tallest, isn't something that is unique to Disney (See: the coaster wars). At Disney it meant an ever increasing emphasis on building these technological wonders like Millennium Falcon, with the hope that technology would give them a heads up on the competition (hmmm sounds like Steve Jobs here).

I think the market is playing a bigger factor in the need (or lack of need) to push attraction capacity, rather than any long term strategy Disney has employed. I think we see that in the slow and gradual shifts away from attractions being the sole attendance drivers and other drivers taking more prominent roles, such as food, merchandise, party nights, cosplay events, festivals and entertainment. Maybe Disney worked to push those drivers over the attractions, but the market was a willing participant.

 

[marni1971]

All I'm saying is that if you think Disney is expensive, you must not get out and do much of anything. Of course, I routinely drop hundreds of dollars on concert tickets (RIP) which are only valuable for 2-3 hours max, so my concept of cheap vs expensive is skewed.

You answered your own question.

 

[_caleb]

Mid-tier attractions aren’t supposed to entice a crowd. That’s why they have so largely been abandoned. There purpose is to provide capacity and help fill out a day. They’re not something you plan a trip around but they increase satisfaction with the entire experience. The big problem with single-price admission is that no attractions directly drive revenue. It’s all based on correlation and surveys. A modest ride drives satisfaction with the day which drives revenue in souvenirs (happy people not overly focused on having the get their next ride buy more stuff), return visits and sharing the experience with others. The focus on driving obvious revenue is how parks have headed down the vicious cycle of having to build something that draws crowds but then not having enough capacity, so new rides have to be bigger and more expensive which just means they’re expected to bring in more people. When a modest ride like The Little Mermaid is attempted it can’t just be a nice addition to the day because it ends up costing $150 million.

How would you answer the question posted above? “What’s a somewhat recent example of a B/C ticket ride that adds to the overall feel/layout/experience of the land?” I’m not sure how I’d answer, but only because of the debate about what attraction falls into which category these days.

 

[UNCgolf]

How would you answer the question posted above? “What’s a somewhat recent example of a B/C ticket ride that adds to the overall feel/layout/experience of the land?” I’m not sure how I’d answer, but only because of the debate about what attraction falls into which category these days.

I personally would consider NRJ a C ticket that fits perfectly in the land and does a great job enhancing the experience, but I know a lot of people dislike it. I also suppose it may be a D rather than a C.

 

[CJR]

When it opened that was the biggest complaint levied against it.



I agree the marketing is out of control. However, building an attraction should still meet the need no matter how it is marketed. But for all the complains about capacity being removed, they added Little Mermaid to Fantasyland and kept Carousel of Progress and Peoplemover open, but mostly just get "meh" reactions from people. Deciding they need more mid-tier attractions, and building mid-tier attractions that can actually entice a crowd and drive revenue are two different things. It's a rare occasion indeed when a mid-tier attraction can actually pull its weight.

But yeah... as others have said part of the problem is the huge costs of WDI Attractions.

Just speaking my opinion, but I feel that the original DCA was executed poorly as a whole. It's not that these experiences were/are bad, but that the park relied too much on them. I'd say, FL has had the exact opposite problem in more recent time, to an extent.

You look at Disneyland with its B/C/D tickets, while they are modestly themed, they are nothing like NRJ, LM, SDMT, Rat.... well, aside from Rogger Rabit, which was kind of the anchor of Toontown.

To expand on that if you're interested, people love the ride, but the complaints about Toontown have always been very similar to the complaints you see about FL's newer non-E's. The land is impressive yet, has always underwhelmed. MMRR can arguably change that, but the point is that through today, it was a lasting criticism of Toontown. So, it's (properly executing B/C/D tickets) not really a new discussion, maybe in FL, somewhat.

A bit of balance is important. I forget how much Toontown was to build, but for the money spent, TSL, Pandora, and the new Rat area are underwhelming.

They're not bad experiences, but the bigger picture is what's wrong. The average guest, especially years down the road will not realize this, but in the fan community, it's easy to see why, knowing how much was spent, people are critical.

Taking it back to the original DCA, it looked cheap because it was. The newer C/D's have the exact opposite problem, IMHO, and are still relied on a bit too much, probably due to the cost for what is a pretty "meh" attraction experience.

I don't think anyone rides these newer attractions feeling like Disney was cheap, but I do feel like people leave a bit underwhelmed, if that makes sense. A similar experience to the live action theatrical remakes, really.

 

[easyrowrdw]

I personally would consider NRJ a C ticket that fits perfectly in the land and does a great job enhancing the experience, but I know a lot of people dislike it. I also suppose it may be a D rather than a C.

I agree. If only there was a third ride in the land... It's such a steep drop-off from Flight of Passage to River Journey. They needed something in between.

 

[peter11435]

I agree. If only there was a third ride in the land... It's such a steep drop-off from Flight of Passage to River Journey. They needed something in between.

Oddly enough Flight of Passage was once intended to be the in between