On layoffs, very bad attendance, and Iger's legacy being one of disgrace

[lewisc]

I wish they'd actually raise prices and class up the place.

You're confusing the relationship between price and quality (class) at Disney. Disney discovered they could charge 5* + pricing at the GF without staffing to offer the 5* experience offered at resorts like 4 Seasons and the Waldorf.

The GF is themed to resemble a 5* hotel

 

[UNCgolf]

I have no idea what you're still on about. My initial gripe was that people act like Disney is some holy place when at the end of the day they're no better than the rest. All they do differently is dress up the attractions and have great fireworks shows. Its not that serious bro

Because your comparisons are basically nonsensical and I'm trying to help you understand why.

For one final try before I give up, Disney doesn't "dress up" the attractions. The attractions are fundamentally different types of attractions (for the most part; not exclusively). It's not really a question of "better" or not; it's about people's individual preferences. If you're looking for big thrill roller coasters and other similar rides, Disney World isn't the place for you because it's not that type of park. They're not trying to offer that experience, just like Cedar Point isn't trying to offer a highly themed experience full of story-based rides.

Essentially, a place like WDW and a place like Cedar Point (and parks like Six Flags, even moreso) aren't really even competitors. They're not trying to do the same thing. It's almost like different genres of music -- Mozart and the Beatles both wrote great music, but comparing them seems pointless because they were intentionally doing very different things.

 

[Gringrinngghost]

So... September is looking good for if you want the park to yourself... and some parks are toying of on demand pricing during this...

 

[JoeCamel]

The GF is themed to resemble a 5* hotel

That! Over the years I have seen how the service and fittings just don't live up to a real 5 star hotel experience.

IT is themed as a five star and playing a role.

I just got that and it explains why it isn't really a five star.

 

[UNCgolf]

That! Over the years I have seen how the service and fittings just don't live up to a real 5 star hotel experience.

IT is themed as a five star and playing a role.

I just got that and it explains why it isn't really a five star.

I think it was much closer to being an actual 5 star 25 years ago than it is now. I still don't think it reached that level, but it was a nicer experience.

 

[JoeCamel]

I think it was much closer to being an actual 5 star 25 years ago than it is now. I still don't think it reached that level, but it was a nicer experience.

So much about WDW was nicer 25 years ago and I don't think I have the nostalgia glasses on. Family I was talking to at MK rope drop (when there was one) asked about Epcot and I said it was sad. 20 yo CM overhears and says "what do you mean". Way to young to understand. This was at least 10 yeas ago.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

That! Over the years I have seen how the service and fittings just don't live up to a real 5 star hotel experience.

IT is themed as a five star and playing a role.

I just got that and it explains why it isn't really a five star.

Even worse is Polynesian. It charges nearly as much, but has less on site amenities.

Its kitsch and retro appeal is mostly self-referential at this point. People who can afford to stay there can visit the actual Hawaiian Disney hotel.

 

[Brer Panther]

Prior to the announcement I don't think Florida had very bad numbers. And in the call I think Chapek said something about having solid bookings until the Covid numbers went absolutely crazy. So I find it difficult to believe he didn't want to open, much less other alleged disagreements between Chapek and Iger.

I distinctively remember reading on this site that Iger and Chapek disagreed on whether or not to reopen the parks. Then again, I have no idea what's true and what isn't true when it comes to recent rumors on this site.

 

[UNCgolf]

So much about WDW was nicer 25 years ago and I don't think I have the nostalgia glasses on. Family I was talking to at MK rope drop (when there was one) asked about Epcot and I said it was sad. 20 yo CM overhears and says "what do you mean". Way to young to understand. This was at least 10 yeas ago.

You don't. Most of WDW was better 25 years ago. EPCOT was obviously light years better, but the Magic Kingdom was better overall as well. Hollywood Studios was very different, but I don't think it was really any worse than it is now. Losing Galaxy's Edge would hurt, but you'd get back the backlot tour with working studios and Disney animators, which is probably a wash overall because that was significantly better than Toy Story Land.

Only major thing missing overall would be Animal Kingdom, which I love, but not as much as original EPCOT.

 

[JoeCamel]

You don't. Most of WDW was better 25 years ago. EPCOT was obviously light years better, but the Magic Kingdom was better overall as well. Hollywood Studios was very different, but I don't think it was really any worse than it is now. Losing Galaxy's Edge would hurt, but you'd get back the backlot tour with working studios and Disney animators, which is probably a wash overall because that was significantly better than Toy Story Land.

Only major thing missing overall would be Animal Kingdom, which I love, but not as much as original EPCOT.

I don't? I was at Epcot 6, 9 and 18 months after it opened. I know what it was.
Maybe I misunderstand.

 

[flynnibus]

I have been paying to stay in houses on the beach, 2200 minimum since 1992. It has went way up, over the years. Hotels Coast of NC, Jekyll Island, and SC. Cheapest rate we have ever gotten, in years with AP rate for Disney, moderate, 150, but usually 180 per night. And off season. Beach rates, in a hotel are around 200 a night. Gatlinburg, Pigeon Forge Hotels, have been paying Disney prices well before we ever went to Disney. :-/
Edit to add, I think we are definitely considered Rural. Can’t imagine hotel rates that cheap though.

last trip we did non disney in orlando i was paying about 130 a night with free buses to the uni and seaworld properties... and for the price of a 2 day disney ticket we did discovery cove and up to 7 days of other parks.

we also stay in cocco beach for sub 200 and enjoy the beach before our disney cruise.

disney's 300-600 night rates are just bonkers for what you actually get

 

[UNCgolf]

I don't? I was at Epcot 6, 9 and 18 months after it opened. I know what it was.
Maybe I misunderstand.

Sorry, meant you don't have nostalgia glasses on.

 

[flynnibus]

I have no idea what you're still on about. My initial gripe was that people act like Disney is some holy place when at the end of the day they're no better than the rest. All they do differently is dress up the attractions and have great fireworks shows. Its not that serious bro

Who has the pool chart drawn up on how long this kid lasts here?

i'd like to buy the 2 week block

 

[Mr Mindcrime]

A Disney vacation isn't expensive if you save properly

Maybe this is nit-picking, but being "expensive" and being "affordable", with or without savings, are two different things. A week-long vacation at WDW for a family of four is expensive, anyway you slice it. But some can afford it and some can't. Period. Even if you save for two years to be able to afford it with cash, it is still "expensive". If your annual income is $400,000, you can easily afford a WDW vacation, but it is still expensive.

 

[MonorailCoral]

You don't. Most of WDW was better 25 years ago. EPCOT was obviously light years better, but the Magic Kingdom was better overall as well. Hollywood Studios was very different, but I don't think it was really any worse than it is now. Losing Galaxy's Edge would hurt, but you'd get back the backlot tour with working studios and Disney animators, which is probably a wash overall because that was significantly better than Toy Story Land.

Only major thing missing overall would be Animal Kingdom, which I love, but not as much as original EPCOT.

I don't get the nostalgia for the original EPCOT. I had been there a handful of times pre-1995 (pre-teen years) and then not again until 2009+ (well into adulthood), and I found the latter visits to be far superior.

Soarin'? Compared to the Cabaret and the other thing that either preceded or replaced it? C'mon. Original EPCOT + The Land = Solely the boat ride. Substantial gain.

Mission: Space? I have vivid memories of my childhood, but one of them is not Horizons. I would have remembered something about it if there was something worth remembering. Substantial gain.

Test Track? Ok, the original version was better than the computer version, but the computer version still stands on its own as a great ride. But like Horizons, I have no childhood memory of World of Motion...Couldn't have been worth remembering. Substantial gain.

The Universe of Energy (even pre-Ellen and BNTSG)...Fancy moving auditorium seating and some dinosaurs. That was nap time. No big loss.

The Wonders of Life...Ok, the loss of Body Wars was a substantial loss.

The Living Seas...Ok, a de-theming from Nemo and a return of the Hydrolators would be welcome. But otherwise, it still largely is what it is.

Journey Into Imagination...Ehh, Figment is still Figment, Honey I Shrunk The Audience was cool, seeing Captain EO again was cool, but I really don't mourn either of their losses. The jumping fountains are still the best part.

Spaceship Earth is still Spaceship Earth.

Everything not around the perimeter of Future World (with the exception of Spaceship Earth) was, and still is, a complete dead (to me) zone and is inconveniently large when crossing.

The World Showcase...Other than the conversion from Maelstrom, I can't think of anything else that isn't substantially the same as it always was.

Summing up the substantial gains/losses:

+3 (Soarin', Mission: Space, Test Track)
-1 (Body Wars)

I'm just not seeing the nostalgia.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I don't get the nostalgia for the original EPCOT. I had been there a handful of times pre-1995 (pre-teen years) and then not again until 2009+ (well into adulthood), and I found the latter visits to be far superior.

Soarin'? Compared to the Cabaret and the other thing that either preceded or replaced it? C'mon. Original EPCOT + The Land = Solely the boat ride. Substantial gain.

Mission: Space? I have vivid memories of my childhood, but one of them is not Horizons. I would have remembered something about it if there was something worth remembering. Substantial gain.

Test Track? Ok, the original version was better than the computer version, but the computer version still stands on its own as a great ride. But like Horizons, I have no childhood memory of World of Motion...Couldn't have been worth remembering. Substantial gain.

The Universe of Energy (even pre-Ellen and BNTSG)...Fancy moving auditorium seating and some dinosaurs. That was nap time. No big loss.

The Wonders of Life...Ok, the loss of Body Wars was a substantial loss.

The Living Seas...Ok, a de-theming from Nemo and a return of the Hydrolators would be welcome. But otherwise, it still largely is what it is.

Journey Into Imagination...Ehh, Figment is still Figment, Honey I Shrunk The Audience was cool, seeing Captain EO again was cool, but I really don't mourn either of their losses. The jumping fountains are still the best part.

Spaceship Earth is still Spaceship Earth.

Everything not around the perimeter of Future World (with the exception of Spaceship Earth) was, and still is, a complete dead (to me) zone and is inconveniently large when crossing.

The World Showcase...Other than the conversion from Maelstrom, I can't think of anything else that isn't substantially the same as it always was.

Summing up the substantial gains/losses:

+3 (Soarin', Mission: Space, Test Track)
-1 (Body Wars)

I'm just not seeing the nostalgia.

You're allowed to have your opinion.

If you'll indulge the counter argument. EPCOT Center was inspirational and aspirational. The whole was greater than the sum of its parts and those parts were stripped down with piecemeal changes that diluted the greater theme.

 

[lazyboy97o]

They have to entice enough of a crowd to justify their existence. Even under the pay-one-price model, all the math of turnstile numbers and maintenance costs still apply. The capacity has to be used to be of any value, and that's where they seem to be having the biggest trouble. It's incredibly difficult to plan for a mid tier, attraction that can pull enough demand to justify its continued maintenance costs. That's especially true for WDI, trying to operate under a "reasonable" budget.

I think the only thing we disagree on is what is driving that abandonment. You seem to think that this was purposefully driven by Disney, and on that I disagree. The need to build the biggest, the fastest, the tallest, isn't something that is unique to Disney (See: the coaster wars). At Disney it meant an ever increasing emphasis on building these technological wonders like Millennium Falcon, with the hope that technology would give them a heads up on the competition (hmmm sounds like Steve Jobs here).

I think the market is playing a bigger factor in the need (or lack of need) to push attraction capacity, rather than any long term strategy Disney has employed. I think we see that in the slow and gradual shifts away from attractions being the sole attendance drivers and other drivers taking more prominent roles, such as food, merchandise, party nights, cosplay events, festivals and entertainment. Maybe Disney worked to push those drivers over the attractions, but the market was a willing participant.

Prior to the 90s, Disney did have things that didn’t necessarily pull their own weight. That was the difference in their model, some things may not make money but added to the experience. In one of his threads, Eddie Sotto discussed the retail program for Euro Disneyland and how square footage was allowed to three different categories (I may not be recalling the exact number and believe he too was unsure of the exact categories) ranging from your true retail venues intended to move merchandise to those that were atmospheric experiences that were not expected to have sales. Nobody expected the park to actually move antique cars but it was cool having them on display and you could still buy a t-shirt across the street. The same was true of things like the antique store in Liberty Square. Obviously there should be limits and you can’t get dragged down by something that is too expensive, but you also have to understand that theme parks are very much about selling an experience and not a commodity.

The regional parks started running down the path of coasters very quickly but ultimately still recognized the importance of rides. If anything, they overdid the focus on rides as many of the present day Six Flags and Cedar Fair parks opened in the 60s and 70s as theme parks but rather quickly started to abandon their thematic concepts for big rides. Where Disney differed is that they didn’t make the change until well over a decade after switching to single-price admission and that instead of going all in on a single ride type they adopted the weird view that rides were unimportant and tried to downplay their prominence. Disney ended up building four parks with a bare minimum of experiences and in the case of Disney’s California Adventure the park was particularly focused on retail and dining. I know you’ll again ask why build them in the first place, but the first three (Disney’s Animal Kingdom, dca and Walt Disney Studios Par) had been committed to in some form or another before the big switch and the last (Hong Kong Disneyland) was a detour on a surprising long game (media distribution in China). This mindset was a key part of NextGen’s promises and even today the Magic Kingdom, the world’s most visited theme park has less dining capacity than 30 years ago.

Disney was definitely successful in convincing people that crowding and less were positives. They also got lucky as there was clearly a tourism bubble. Tourism across the board, around the world was surging. The strategy was also starting the falter with guest satisfaction starting to take a hit resulting in a series of new attractions finally being approved.

How would you answer the question posted above? “What’s a somewhat recent example of a B/C ticket ride that adds to the overall feel/layout/experience of the land?” I’m not sure how I’d answer, but only because of the debate about what attraction falls into which category these days.

At Disney, I’d say the Red Car Trolley. Outside of Disney, I’d have to give a nod to Justice League: Battle for Metropolis. While it’s not much of an atmospheric add and the lands it is within are not much, they are a good quality dark ride that generally spruced up their immediate area all for a very good price (first one was less than $15 million).

I personally would consider NRJ a C ticket that fits perfectly in the land and does a great job enhancing the experience, but I know a lot of people dislike it. I also suppose it may be a D rather than a C.

The plans had it labeled as a C Ticket.

 

[JoeCamel]

I don't get the nostalgia for the original EPCOT. I had been there a handful of times pre-1995 (pre-teen years) and then not again until 2009+ (well into adulthood), and I found the latter visits to be far superior.

Soarin'? Compared to the Cabaret and the other thing that either preceded or replaced it? C'mon. Original EPCOT + The Land = Solely the boat ride. Substantial gain.

Mission: Space? I have vivid memories of my childhood, but one of them is not Horizons. I would have remembered something about it if there was something worth remembering. Substantial gain.

Test Track? Ok, the original version was better than the computer version, but the computer version still stands on its own as a great ride. But like Horizons, I have no childhood memory of World of Motion...Couldn't have been worth remembering. Substantial gain.

The Universe of Energy (even pre-Ellen and BNTSG)...Fancy moving auditorium seating and some dinosaurs. That was nap time. No big loss.

The Wonders of Life...Ok, the loss of Body Wars was a substantial loss.

The Living Seas...Ok, a de-theming from Nemo and a return of the Hydrolators would be welcome. But otherwise, it still largely is what it is.

Journey Into Imagination...Ehh, Figment is still Figment, Honey I Shrunk The Audience was cool, seeing Captain EO again was cool, but I really don't mourn either of their losses. The jumping fountains are still the best part.

Spaceship Earth is still Spaceship Earth.

Everything not around the perimeter of Future World (with the exception of Spaceship Earth) was, and still is, a complete dead (to me) zone and is inconveniently large when crossing.

The World Showcase...Other than the conversion from Maelstrom, I can't think of anything else that isn't substantially the same as it always was.

Summing up the substantial gains/losses:

+3 (Soarin', Mission: Space, Test Track)
-1 (Body Wars)

I'm just not seeing the nostalgia.

Ever been to a world's fair? I was at 3 before I went to Epcot (had been to the MK several times before Epcot opened) and Epcot was an ongoing world's fair with the best the world, and corporate sponsorship, could exhibit. It was magical. The 90's were good from what I hear, I didn't get back to Epcot til 2000 and it was a shell of what I knew from the start.

 

[Laketravis]

Wow. And to think it was just a few years ago I almost got kicked off another not-to-be-named forum for suggesting that WDW needed more thrill coasters

 

[MonorailCoral]

You're allowed to have your opinion.

If you'll indulge the counter argument. EPCOT Center was inspirational and aspirational. The whole was greater than the sum of its parts and those parts were stripped down with piecemeal changes that diluted that greater theme.

I've heard that argument. To be honest, the original "whole" (that I remember) felt far more piecemeal than it does today. Inspirational/aspirational-wise, I can't say that the three substantial gains in my previous post would be any less...In fact, on the contrary, seeing as they all induce multiple sensory perceptions to get their main points across which, I believe, were generally lacking in what they replaced.

Ever been to a world's fair? I was at 3 before I went to Epcot (had been to the MK several times before Epcot opened) and Epcot was an ongoing world's fair with the best the world, and corporate sponsorship, could exhibit. It was magical. The 90's were good from what I hear, I didn't get back to Epcot til 2000 and it was a shell of what I knew from the start.

I haven't had such an experience of a true world's fair...But I'm not sure if noticing the gain or lack of a Kodak sponsorship (or whoever) splashed across a short stand-up panovision movie of Canada would really change anything for me. I don't have any gripes about the old-versus-newer World Showcase...It still feels the same to me as it always did.