On layoffs, very bad attendance, and Iger's legacy being one of disgrace

[HollyAD]

I think you’re thinking quite selfishly though. Yes, I as an adult male with a decent job & no kids can save up over time for an expensive trip to Disney. I do a lot of traveling as well and I still think Disney is highly expensive, especially if you don’t have a love for theme parks. I’ve been to many music festivals these past few years too. Those too are things for singles & couples. Try buying EDC tickets for a family of 4.

The more money I make the more I realize that Disney is expensive. Maybe I am just older now or maybe I have traveled more and see what I can get for my money in other places. I can't imagine if I had multiple children how much Disney could cost me. We do love the parks and I just go there expecting to spend some $$$$$ For someone to say it's not expensive is a little out of touch with the average American family. I have been working in poorer parts of my state for COVID recently and I have been absolutely humbled and have never been more grateful for my ability to travel.

 

[el_super]

Mid-tier attractions aren’t supposed to entice a crowd. That’s why they have so largely been abandoned. There purpose is to provide capacity and help fill out a day.

They have to entice enough of a crowd to justify their existence. Even under the pay-one-price model, all the math of turnstile numbers and maintenance costs still apply. The capacity has to be used to be of any value, and that's where they seem to be having the biggest trouble. It's incredibly difficult to plan for a mid tier, attraction that can pull enough demand to justify its continued maintenance costs. That's especially true for WDI, trying to operate under a "reasonable" budget.

I think the only thing we disagree on is what is driving that abandonment. You seem to think that this was purposefully driven by Disney, and on that I disagree. The need to build the biggest, the fastest, the tallest, isn't something that is unique to Disney (See: the coaster wars). At Disney it meant an ever increasing emphasis on building these technological wonders like Millennium Falcon, with the hope that technology would give them a heads up on the competition (hmmm sounds like Steve Jobs here).

I think the market is playing a bigger factor in the need (or lack of need) to push attraction capacity, rather than any long term strategy Disney has employed. I think we see that in the slow and gradual shifts away from attractions being the sole attendance drivers and other drivers taking more prominent roles, such as food, merchandise, party nights, cosplay events, festivals and entertainment. Maybe Disney worked to push those drivers over the attractions, but the market was a willing participant.

 

[marni1971]

All I'm saying is that if you think Disney is expensive, you must not get out and do much of anything. Of course, I routinely drop hundreds of dollars on concert tickets (RIP) which are only valuable for 2-3 hours max, so my concept of cheap vs expensive is skewed.

You answered your own question.

 

[_caleb]

Mid-tier attractions aren’t supposed to entice a crowd. That’s why they have so largely been abandoned. There purpose is to provide capacity and help fill out a day. They’re not something you plan a trip around but they increase satisfaction with the entire experience. The big problem with single-price admission is that no attractions directly drive revenue. It’s all based on correlation and surveys. A modest ride drives satisfaction with the day which drives revenue in souvenirs (happy people not overly focused on having the get their next ride buy more stuff), return visits and sharing the experience with others. The focus on driving obvious revenue is how parks have headed down the vicious cycle of having to build something that draws crowds but then not having enough capacity, so new rides have to be bigger and more expensive which just means they’re expected to bring in more people. When a modest ride like The Little Mermaid is attempted it can’t just be a nice addition to the day because it ends up costing $150 million.

How would you answer the question posted above? “What’s a somewhat recent example of a B/C ticket ride that adds to the overall feel/layout/experience of the land?” I’m not sure how I’d answer, but only because of the debate about what attraction falls into which category these days.

 

[UNCgolf]

How would you answer the question posted above? “What’s a somewhat recent example of a B/C ticket ride that adds to the overall feel/layout/experience of the land?” I’m not sure how I’d answer, but only because of the debate about what attraction falls into which category these days.

I personally would consider NRJ a C ticket that fits perfectly in the land and does a great job enhancing the experience, but I know a lot of people dislike it. I also suppose it may be a D rather than a C.

 

[CJR]

When it opened that was the biggest complaint levied against it.



I agree the marketing is out of control. However, building an attraction should still meet the need no matter how it is marketed. But for all the complains about capacity being removed, they added Little Mermaid to Fantasyland and kept Carousel of Progress and Peoplemover open, but mostly just get "meh" reactions from people. Deciding they need more mid-tier attractions, and building mid-tier attractions that can actually entice a crowd and drive revenue are two different things. It's a rare occasion indeed when a mid-tier attraction can actually pull its weight.

But yeah... as others have said part of the problem is the huge costs of WDI Attractions.

Just speaking my opinion, but I feel that the original DCA was executed poorly as a whole. It's not that these experiences were/are bad, but that the park relied too much on them. I'd say, FL has had the exact opposite problem in more recent time, to an extent.

You look at Disneyland with its B/C/D tickets, while they are modestly themed, they are nothing like NRJ, LM, SDMT, Rat.... well, aside from Rogger Rabit, which was kind of the anchor of Toontown.

To expand on that if you're interested, people love the ride, but the complaints about Toontown have always been very similar to the complaints you see about FL's newer non-E's. The land is impressive yet, has always underwhelmed. MMRR can arguably change that, but the point is that through today, it was a lasting criticism of Toontown. So, it's (properly executing B/C/D tickets) not really a new discussion, maybe in FL, somewhat.

A bit of balance is important. I forget how much Toontown was to build, but for the money spent, TSL, Pandora, and the new Rat area are underwhelming.

They're not bad experiences, but the bigger picture is what's wrong. The average guest, especially years down the road will not realize this, but in the fan community, it's easy to see why, knowing how much was spent, people are critical.

Taking it back to the original DCA, it looked cheap because it was. The newer C/D's have the exact opposite problem, IMHO, and are still relied on a bit too much, probably due to the cost for what is a pretty "meh" attraction experience.

I don't think anyone rides these newer attractions feeling like Disney was cheap, but I do feel like people leave a bit underwhelmed, if that makes sense. A similar experience to the live action theatrical remakes, really.

 

[easyrowrdw]

I personally would consider NRJ a C ticket that fits perfectly in the land and does a great job enhancing the experience, but I know a lot of people dislike it. I also suppose it may be a D rather than a C.

I agree. If only there was a third ride in the land... It's such a steep drop-off from Flight of Passage to River Journey. They needed something in between.

 

[peter11435]

I agree. If only there was a third ride in the land... It's such a steep drop-off from Flight of Passage to River Journey. They needed something in between.

Oddly enough Flight of Passage was once intended to be the in between

 

[CaptainAmerica]

A bunch of high income earners that can “take it or leave it” because they have high income toys and diversions at home.

It didn’t USED to be that way...it used to be anchored in the middle class roadtrips/summer vacations...but they’ve taken it down another path.

No sense fighting the truth...it will win.

Yeah the thing I think of when I picture a crowded afternoon in the Magic Kingdom is *squints* high income earners.

I wish they'd actually raise prices and class up the place.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

Yeah I agree here. There is no reason why Bubba and family need to be in the Magic Kingdom. I sometimes wish we lived in the era where folks actually dressed decently for the parks instead of the trashy gym shorts and tees you see so often

Blame the industrialization of the clothing industry...that's why those types of clothing exist.

 

[maxairmike]

Which is incredibly unfortunate. Not that the ride itself is bad, but the whole exposed track and theming is a major failure and part of the reason Toy Story Land is so terrible. If Disney pivoted to building a lot of rides like Slinky Dog I'd probably stop going.

Slinky isn't a reason that TSL isn't a great land. Well, maybe if we had gotten closer to the original concept art treatment it would be better, but that's pretty much the only thing I can knock Slinky on in terms of not making the land great, and overall that's pretty minor. Exposed track and the theme are perfectly fine.

 

[DisneyGigi]

Disney trips are more expensive than regular *theme* park visits. I have to be honest, though, we spend the same amount for lodging, and dining anywhere we visit. A weekend trip to Gatlinburg, we easily spent 3000.00 even in the 90’s. A week trip to the beach 3000.00 easy, not including food, and whatever else we decide to do. Vacations are not cheap, unless I am just going to the wrong places. I am 47 and haven’t had a parent pay anything for me in over 30 + years. Should they cut prices for reduced hours, entertainment? Probably. If I still choose to go, though, don’t begrudge them or me for making that decision. It isn’t that expensive, and if it is don’t go. Your money, your choice.

 

[Jrb1979]

Disney trips are more expensive than regular *theme* park visits. I have to be honest, though, we spend the same amount for lodging, and dining anywhere we visit. A weekend trip to Gatlinburg, we easily spent 3000.00 even in the 90’s. A week trip to the beach 3000.00 easy, not including food, and whatever else we decide to do. Vacations are not cheap, unless I am just going to the wrong places. I am 47 and haven’t had a parent pay anything for me in over 30 + years. Should they cut prices for reduced hours, entertainment? Probably. If I still choose to go, though, don’t begrudge them or me for making that decision. It isn’t that expensive, and if it is don’t go. Your money, your choice.

I don't know where you are going but I have never spent near that amount for any vacation I have taken. Then again I won't pay more then $120 a night for a hotel. Last year when I went to Florida it cost me $600 for the hotel for the week. Adding in Universal for the week I paid maybe $1400 total for the week including air fare. I have never paid $2000 for any vacation anywhere.

 

[DisneyGigi]

I don't know where you are going but I have never spent near that amount for any vacation I have taken. Then again I won't pay more then $120 a night for a hotel. Last year when I went to Florida it cost me $600 for the hotel for the week. Adding in Universal for the week I paid maybe $1400 total for the week including air fare. I have never paid $2000 for any vacation anywhere.

I have been paying to stay in houses on the beach, 2200 minimum since 1992. It has went way up, over the years. Hotels Coast of NC, Jekyll Island, and SC. Cheapest rate we have ever gotten, in years with AP rate for Disney, moderate, 150, but usually 180 per night. And off season. Beach rates, in a hotel are around 200 a night. Gatlinburg, Pigeon Forge Hotels, have been paying Disney prices well before we ever went to Disney. :-/
Edit to add, I think we are definitely considered Rural. Can’t imagine hotel rates that cheap though.

 

[Jrb1979]

I have been paying to stay in houses on the beach, 2200 minimum since 1992. It has went way up, over the years. Hotels Coast of NC, Jekyll Island, and SC. Cheapest rate we have ever gotten, in years with AP rate for Disney, moderate, 150, but usually 180 per night. And off season. Beach rates, in a hotel are around 200 a night. Gatlinburg, Pigeon Forge Hotels, have been paying Disney prices well before we ever went to Disney. :-/
Edit to add, I think we are definitely considered Rural. Can’t imagine hotel rates that cheap though.

I would never pay that much. My family looks at a hotel as a place to sleep. I look at what the latest reviews are and if they are good I will book it. I was in Myrtle Beach at the beginning of March and paid $80 a night. I can't for the life me see paying $200 or more per night for a place to sleep at night.

 

[DisneyGigi]

I would never pay that much. My family looks at a hotel as a place to sleep. I look at what the latest reviews are and if they are good I will book it. I was in Myrtle Beach at the beginning of March and paid $80 a night. I can't for the life me see paying $200 or more per night for a place to sleep at night.

I am going to bow out, I have been to Myrtle Beach, many times, but not in many years. I visit, staying in a house, at Holden Beach. That is cool though, we are on different ends of the vacation realm, and that is okay.

 

[UNCgolf]

Slinky isn't a reason that TSL isn't a great land. Well, maybe if we had gotten closer to the original concept art treatment it would be better, but that's pretty much the only thing I can knock Slinky on in terms of not making the land great, and overall that's pretty minor. Exposed track and the theme are perfectly fine.

That's why I said part of the reason. The land is a failure overall and Slinky is easily the best part, but Slinky doesn't help with the exposed track and lack of theming. As someone else said, it wouldn't have been that difficult to theme the track itself (or at least the supports) as part of a toy set. Large amounts of exposed track is never a good look for a themed area.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Yeah the thing I think of when I picture a crowded afternoon in the Magic Kingdom is *squints* high income earners.

I wish they'd actually raise prices and class up the place.

You think the riff raff is hanging out at $125 a head?

 

[EricsBiscuit]

Uni was PACKED today. DS is also busy despite the heavy rain.

 

[DisneyGigi]

Yea we are. Im an AP but at the of the day, its an amusement park. These endless essays about the inconvenience are tiring

I am as well, to both, most years. The difference is I pay for the entire family to have annual passes for Dollywood, yet we never go. Well, not to Dollywood, since 2017. It just isn’t worth it to go, we blew two years worth of season passes. Seems like a good idea, but not that fun. After a a kazillion years of going. Dollywood is an amusement park. Something you do on a weekend, like Carowinds. Cheap thrill. Disney is different, IMO, even with the cheap thrift store version. The comparison to me is tiring as well.