Disney (and others) at the Box Office - Current State of Affairs

[brideck]

The box office thread was always a fun discussion because it was real time and changed weekly, I have no interest in waiting a year or more to talk about whether a movie was a success or not so I think I’ll gracefully move on from this thread, it’s morphed into a topic I don’t particularly find interesting.

You don't actually have to wait any amount of time. Just adjust the bombsights (pun intended). If you know that what TP posts is lowballing things for both failures and successes, then you can still have the conversation that you want to have -- you just have to more or less ignore his attempt to be the definitive answer for everything.

 

[Tha Realest]

You don't actually have to wait any amount of time. Just adjust the bombsights (pun intended). If you know that what TP posts is lowballing things for both failures and successes, then you can still have the conversation that you want to have -- you just have to more or less ignore his attempt to be the definitive answer for everything.

Or maybe someone could create a post-theatrical thread, or “value to D+ thread”

 

[Disney Irish]

Or maybe someone could create a post-theatrical thread, or “value to D+ thread”

Or just understand its an incomplete picture and that there will be no complete answer on a movies profitability. It just means that when a movie does better than breakeven during theatrical its for sure going to be profitable, but if its not it'll take work post-theatrical. And that is the nuisance that some of us provide during the conversation and what happens post-theatrical which many find interesting within the context of the box office.

I mean I understand that this thread was started as just another place to air grievances about Disney, at the time the 2023 box office specifically. But really became a dumping ground for all grievances and some just want to continue only that. The reality is that if someone wanted to just look at box office numbers and nothing else they don't have to come here to do it.

 

[Tha Realest]

Or just understand its an incomplete picture and that there will be no complete answer on a movies profitability. It just means that when a movie does better than breakeven during theatrical its for sure going to be profitable, but if its not it'll take work post-theatrical. And that is the nuisance that some of us provide during the conversation and what happens post-theatrical.

I mean I understand that this thread was started as just another place to air grievances about Disney, at the time the 2023 box office specifically. But really became a dumping ground for all grievances and some just want to continue only that. The reality is that if someone wanted to just look at box office numbers and nothing else they don't have to come here to do it.

(Taps thread sign) Or just create your own thing like DA did!

 

[Disney Irish]

(Taps thread sign) Or just create your own thing like DA did!

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll take it under advisement. Until then I'll continue with the discussion that happens to be occurring within the thread.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Dude, if 3 movies clear enough ROI for the entire slate it doesn't matter if all the others just break even or even lose money.

That is one thing you have to get out of your head, not every one of Disney's movies have to clear breakeven, never was a requirement.

Yeah…for Disney it really does, Jack

Making profit and having wide appeal (you know…eyes? Ticket sales? Pub?) really does matter to Disney.

That doesn’t mean they don’t have flops…but then expanding the existence of flops into that flops don’t matter at all is like what the F student in Econ writes his paper about

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I mean I understand that this thread was started as just another place to air grievances about Disney, at the time the 2023 box office specifically. But really became a dumping ground for all grievances and some just want to continue only that. The reality is that if someone wanted to just look at box office numbers and nothing else they don't have to come here to do it.

Now see here is where you didn’t read post #1. It’s to discuss performance at the box office. Like the actual performance.

Maybe it’s confusing?

And second…you really showed your hand here. I love it when people adamantly say it’s not about defending Disney (specifically)…then actually cry for Disney in an “airing of grievances”

Know when to fold ‘em, Kenny rogers

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Second you assume the end goal is to clear enough to make profit, whatever that number may be, and that they count that as a ROI failure if its only a couple hundred Million. We can't assume that just because that is what "we" would want if we were in their position.

Actually…we do…can…and should “assume” that. Because popularity is a direct correlation to longterm appeal and higher return for the studio and company. It’s 1:1.

What had a better ROI? Batman or bill and Ted’s bogus journey…

That one is a crème puff…easy one.

Not true. The bar isn't as high as all of that. As an example, per Deadline, Mufasa netted $175m for Disney after grossing only $722m against a $200m budget.

If Stitch does as massively as people are thinking (against a very reasonable budget), it'll easily erase SW and then some.

So is it about profit, appeal and making money, or no?

Can you get together with your Gaelic bro and come up with a coherent theme?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Again I don't know where you get 5 years from for movies. I think you're taking the development phase where no major budget is assigned, which could be years, and trying to attribute that to actual production when the budget is actually rolling. Once it goes into actual production its 6-24 months even with extensive post-production for VFX. For example Zootopia 2 when into production in 2023 and is releasing this Thanksgiving, that is 24 months of production, not 5 years.

Will Zootopia lead to further merch down the line, yes.
Will Avatar lead to further merch down the line, again likely yes.
Will Stitch lead to further merch down the line, a SOLID YES!

So yes the ROI for 2025 will be there no matter what any of the others do.

Because there’s a lot more to movies than just a cast and the camera operators…all the time in development is waste of energy and labor if they aren’t gonna hit. There are no guarantees…but they sure as hell want them. It’s lost opportunity cost. There’s a place where it’s about “genre” and “exposition writing”…it’s called college and that ain’t real. Not in Hollywood

Hell…Disney already has a whole division that they constantly give dead end busy work to with no intention of following up on…it’s called WDI…
Don’t think they need one at the studio too.

 

[TP2000]

You want a prediction? Thunderbolts* should look pretty similar to Cap 4 for its WW total (~$200m/$420m) when all is said and done. This'll put it firmly in the wash category -- far from covered in red ink.

Now that Captain America 4 is done with its run at the box office for all intents and purposes, here's how that looks in both the current situation, and the forward-looking 2.5X situation that adds in unknown future streaming income.

Captain America 4: Production $180, Marketing $90, Domestic $120, Overseas $86 = $64 Million Loss
Alternate Captain America 4: 2.5 Times Production Budget Requires $450 Global Box Office = $34 Million Loss

If Stitch does as massively as people are thinking (against a very reasonable budget), it'll easily erase SW and then some.

This might be a good time to do a pre-summer check in on how Disney's box office losses have piled up the past few months, to see what it will take for Stitch, Elio and Fantastic Four to dig out from underneath those losses before they can get to Christmas with Zootopia 2 and Avatar 3, etc.

The top line number is that as of the middle of May, Burbank has lost $407 Million at the box office in 2025.

Captain America 4: Production $180, Marketing $90, Domestic $120, Overseas $86 = $64 Million Loss
Snow White: Production $270, Marketing $100, Domestic $52, Overseas $46 = $272 Million Loss
The Amateur: Production $60, Marketing $30, Domestic $23, Overseas $46 = $21 Million Loss
Thunderbolts: Production $180, Marketing $90, Domestic $77, Overseas $58 = $50 Million Loss???

The Numbers - Where Data and the Movie Business Meet

The Numbers provides detailed movie financial analysis, including box office, DVD and Blu-ray sales reports, and release schedules.

thenumbers.com

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Now that Captain America 4 is done with its run at the box office for all intents and purposes, here's how that looks in both the current situation, and the forward-looking 2.5X situation that adds in unknown future streaming income.

Captain America 4: Production $180, Marketing $90, Domestic $120, Overseas $86 = $64 Million Loss
Alternate Captain America 4: 2.5 Times Production Budget Requires $450 Global Box Office = $34 Million Loss

View attachment 858520



This might be a good time to do a pre-summer check in on how Disney's box office losses have piled up the past few months, to see what it will take for Stitch, Elio and Fantastic Four to dig out from underneath those losses before they can get to Christmas with Zootopia 2 and Avatar 3, etc.

The top line number is that as of the middle of May, Burbank has lost $407 Million at the box office in 2025.

Captain America 4: Production $180, Marketing $90, Domestic $120, Overseas $86 = $64 Million Loss
Snow White: Production $270, Marketing $100, Domestic $52, Overseas $46 = $272 Million Loss
The Amateur: Production $60, Marketing $30, Domestic $23, Overseas $46 = $21 Million Loss
Thunderbolts: Production $180, Marketing $90, Domestic $77, Overseas $58 = $50 Million Loss???

View attachment 858521

The Numbers - Where Data and the Movie Business Meet

The Numbers provides detailed movie financial analysis, including box office, DVD and Blu-ray sales reports, and release schedules.

thenumbers.com

There’s also the contention from corporate that the known extensive reshoots for cap 4 cost $0…

As in a gift from SAG and the trade guilds? Hollywood is always so charitable

(I say this because they’re gonna spin this crap as “standard” to fleece the costs and goose the reported “margins”…this is certain unless an adult level of pragmatic thought is applied)

 

[DisneyWarrior27]

Oh, hey, speaking of Disney box office, they finally started marketing Elio with this first TV spot they played during the final commercial break of American Idol’s part 2 of their 2-night Disney Night event on ABC.



Maybe now they’ll finally market this movie to make it a box office hit.

 

[TP2000]

Or, for those at home who like to use the blanket 2.5 X Production Budget to get to their numbers, here's how that looks so far this year...

Top line number using that equation is that in mid May, Burbank has lost $617 Million at the box office so far this year.

Captain America 4: 2.5 times the production budget of $180 Million = $35 Million Loss
Snow White: 2.5 times the production budget of $270 Million = $473 Million Loss
The Amateur: 2.5 times the production budget of $60 Million = $59 Million Loss
Thunderbolts: 2.5 times the production budget of $60 Million = $50 Million Loss???

The more nuanced breakdown of domestic vs. overseas numbers we use here in the TP2000 Global Command Center show a loss so far this year of $407 Million. But the blanket 2.5 X Production equation shows a much bigger loss so far, with Snow White really causing more damage, and nets a total loss of over $200 Million more at a $617 Million loss.

Are you sure you guys want to use the 2.5X equation this year? It might help the cause to use the Global Command Center equation instead.

The Numbers - Where Data and the Movie Business Meet

The Numbers provides detailed movie financial analysis, including box office, DVD and Blu-ray sales reports, and release schedules.

thenumbers.com

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Good Lord.

#1. Mufasa made money.

#2. Fantastic Four has their best shot because of Pedro Pascal.

#2a. You’re worth it - now work it.

 

[brideck]

Or, for those at home who like to use the blanket 2.5 X Production Budget to get to their numbers, here's how that looks so far this year...

Top line number using that equation is that in mid May, Burbank has lost $617 Million at the box office so far this year.

Captain America 4: 2.5 times the production budget of $180 Million = $35 Million Loss
Snow White: 2.5 times the production budget of $270 Million = $473 Million Loss
The Amateur: 2.5 times the production budget of $60 Million = $59 Million Loss
Thunderbolts: 2.5 times the production budget of $60 Million = $50 Million Loss???

The more nuanced breakdown of domestic vs. overseas numbers we use here in the TP2000 Global Command Center show a loss so far this year of $407 Million. But the blanket 2.5 X Production equation shows a much bigger loss so far, with Snow White really causing more damage, and nets a total loss of over $200 Million more at a $617 Million loss.

Are you sure you guys want to use the 2.5X equation this year? It might help the cause to use the Global Command Center equation instead.

View attachment 858522

The Numbers - Where Data and the Movie Business Meet

The Numbers provides detailed movie financial analysis, including box office, DVD and Blu-ray sales reports, and release schedules.

thenumbers.com

Timely. Here's the numbers using the actual formula recommended to you by Brian Lo a few times. [He can correct me, if I've gotten it wrong.] For fun (and because we're all about comparisons here, right? <taps thread sign>) I threw in the top 30 grossers at the BO so far in 2025, so y'all can see what most movies do re: profits and eyeballs.

To get the kind of numbers that Disney needs re: eyeballs takes a big budget and with that comes a whole lot more risk re: profits. Only 3 out of 12 movies with a budget of $40m+ have hit so far this year with Disney being 0 for 4.

One big hit and Disney's back in the black for the year, even with Snow White sitting there. Disney has a lot of scratch cards left this year, as they do every year.

 

[DKampy]

Well they will likely turn a profit…

Isn’t there an avatar this year?

But it’s ROI they most care about. And by “most”…I mean 100% of the management of Disney.

To look at the next Disney movie on tap… you don’t think Stitch will achieve ROI

It’s always about ancillaries…merch, licensing, sequels and spins…

We should be good there with upcoming films Fantastic Four, Stitch, Zootopia, Avatar…. I very much doubt a film like The Amateur was ever greenlit with merch and licensing in mind

So why do it for break even?
And if they’re bad…they can make money and STILL lose potential profits down the road. (I’ll not get started on the obvious example there)

I could see a side where Disney goal is for Thunderbolts to break even theatrically at this point it is probably more about reversing the narrative that Marvel does not produce quality anymore

Here’s a good one: “thunderbolts is so well reviewed…great for marvel”

As stated above that is a great start to begin to reverse the trend

But the Seats are largely empty. Are we shooting for cult classic here?

Think Burbank is high fiving that?

7,480 per theater average this weekend is not nothing… most movies released this year would love those averages in a single weekend…I saw a Sunday matinee of Thunderbolts this weekend and there was a decent crowd in my theater

 

[Disney Irish]

Yeah…for Disney it really does, Jack

Making profit and having wide appeal (you know…eyes? Ticket sales? Pub?) really does matter to Disney.

That doesn’t mean they don’t have flops…but then expanding the existence of flops into that flops don’t matter at all is like what the F student in Econ writes his paper about

So every movie they greenlight is for mass appeal and making profit? You really want to go down that road? Because we can pull up the list of hundreds of movies that Disney has greenlit over the years that surely wasn't for mass appeal or making profit, especially lately with Searchlight. We can also pull up the list of hundreds of movies that Disney has greenlit over the years that never saw a ROI. The movie business is not a for sure thing, it never has been, and never will be.

Heck for that matter, how many times have you said in this and other threads how xyz movie didn't have mass appeal and Disney should have known it? I mean if you can see it and so can others surely Disney can too. So that must mean they don't always do things for those reason, ie its not always going to be what you want or expect out of Disney. I mean clearly since you constantly rail against them in almost every post.

At a certain point you have to realize that the old Walt saying of "We don't make movies to make money, we make money to make movies" still rings true, even today, even under this management. Which for the record I'm not a fan of either for the most part, but doesn't mean I can't enjoy what they produce.

Now see here is where you didn’t read post #1. It’s to discuss performance at the box office. Like the actual performance.

Maybe it’s confusing?

And second…you really showed your hand here. I love it when people adamantly say it’s not about defending Disney (specifically)…then actually cry for Disney in an “airing of grievances”

Know when to fold ‘em, Kenny rogers

I have no issue with people wanting to air their grievances against Disney. I do have an issue with people wanting to claim this thread was about one thing then go and air their grievances continually about things not related to the box office and then complain when others try to discuss the nuances of the box office by providing context. So which is it? Are we only here to discuss the box office numbers and nothing else or are we discussing things related to the box office that end up in nuanced discussions that provide context, which include grievances. Because if its the former and not the latter, then unfortunately about 95% of this thread would be deleted including about 99.9% of your posts.

Actually…we do…can…and should “assume” that. Because popularity is a direct correlation to longterm appeal and higher return for the studio and company. It’s 1:1.

What had a better ROI? Batman or bill and Ted’s bogus journey…

That one is a crème puff…easy one.

So is it about profit, appeal and making money, or no?

Actually we can't assume that, and that is the point. Because not every movie is going to have a direct ROI, nor is every movie going to have mass appeal, again the whole point. Because for every Batman, there is about 100 Bill and Ted's.

Also again I think you're talking about YOUR stated goals, not Disney's.

Because there’s a lot more to movies than just a cast and the camera operators…all the time in development is waste of energy and labor if they aren’t gonna hit. There are no guarantees…but they sure as hell want them. It’s lost opportunity cost. There’s a place where it’s about “genre” and “exposition writing”…it’s called college and that ain’t real. Not in Hollywood

Hell…Disney already has a whole division that they constantly give dead end busy work to with no intention of following up on…it’s called WDI…
Don’t think they need one at the studio too.

Yes there is a lot more to movies than the actual production. Development phase can and does take years. Disney and every studio has movies in various stages of development at all times. So you don't think they have scriptwriters out there today pumping out a script that will never see the light of day? Come on man, you should know better than that. Disney and every studio sees and accepts and purchases hundreds of scripts that don't ever get made. They will never see a direct ROI ever, and yet they spend money on them every day of every year. Because that is how Hollywood works. They don't make every movie they greenlight, they don't make every script they buy.

Now I'm ok with saying thats a waste of money, but that is the nature of this business. Sorry if that is not ok with you, but it does and will continue to happen. And so yeah in that regard it is just like WDI.

 

[Agent H]

Yeah…for Disney it really does, Jack

Making profit and having wide appeal (you know…eyes? Ticket sales? Pub?) really does matter to Disney.

That doesn’t mean they don’t have flops…but then expanding the existence of flops into that flops don’t matter at all is like what the F student in Econ writes his paper about

Disney is releasing a sequel to a remake of freaky Friday this year. Do you think that Disney thinks that film has mainstream appeal? Frankly I don’t know why it’s releasing in theaters instead of on Disney+

 

[TP2000]

Here's the numbers using the actual formula recommended to you by Brian Lo a few times. [He can correct me, if I've gotten it wrong.]

Wait, I thought the @BrianLo formula was 2.5X the production budget against the global box office total?

Using that 2.5X formula, Disney has lost $617 Million at the box office as of May 11th.

Using my more nuanced 60/40 formula, Disney has lost $407 Million at the box office as of May 11th.

For fun (and because we're all about comparisons here, right? <taps thread sign>) I threw in the top 30 grossers at the BO so far in 2025, so y'all can see what most movies do re: profits and eyeballs.

I'm sorry, but what are we looking at here? If you could be so kind, help an older man out who not only hates math, but has admittedly had one Manhattan and two glasses of a nice Willamette Valley Pinot Noir in the past four hours as it approaches Midnight Mountain Time. What does this table mean? What's the top line net profit or loss from this table?

Am I right in thinking it shows a current net loss for Burbank's box office of $379 Million? And Snow White only lost them $238 Million? That seems awfully generous. How does this compute with the 2.5X formula some folks here once wanted to use?

View attachment 858524

 

[brideck]

And just real quick, Brian Lo had done this previously hundreds of pages ago, but here's checking the formula being used against Deadline's tail of the tape for the four biggest bombs of 2023.

Deadline had these as:
Marvels -$237m
IJ 5 -$143m
Wish -$131m
HM -$117m

Pretty dang close, no? And all we had to do was use a better formula. No waiting months to get official word, etc.