SPOILER: The Acolyte -- Disney+ Star Wars -- begins June 5, 2024

[flynnibus]

Almost no one likes Ep3 dude. Even fans of the show generally hate it and consider it some of the worst content in Disney canon. I was one of the more open minded about this series and didn't mind the first two episodes, but even I think Ep3 is awful. You're one of the only people i've seen who likes it. Your opinion of course and you're entitled to it, but lets not pretend that many others will agree with you.

Where did I say I liked it? It serves a significant purpose.. and your 'fix' is far far worse. Considering the amount of complaining about story and value... I find it amusing the better alternatives being proposed here are to simply GUT the very structure that builds suspense, character, and exposition in the show.

I mean at the very basics... we have a show that is about two 'very special' twins... and you're basically arguing we shouldn't have a episode dedicated to who they are and where they came from? Or even spend time on the VERY CONFLICT that torments 3/4s of the main cast???

If 'fans of the show' don't get that.. then I think some 'fans' are far less competent then they think.

As they stand right now, the entire episode should have been edited down to maybe 5 minutes at most, with those minutes spread out and conveyed as flashbacks across the first 3 episodes prior to the battle with Qimir. Then leave the important revelations for Ep7 (which in such a scenario with an episode missing would instead become Ep6 I suppose).

So you'd rather have a show about Osha as some rando... that no one understands... and Jedi without any internal conflict or past tormenting them.

For things that are the very core of the drama in the show... I have no idea why you'd delegate all that to just a few clips here and there. You'd have a story that transpires that no one cares about except seeing what happens in the present without an rationale to explain the behavior you see.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

I think some people forget, its about the journey not the destination. If you just skip all the details to get to the end as fast as possible there is no payoff.

The "journey" with regards to the buildup of Osha and Mae has sucked and been a huge failure. I've held a more moderate opinion on this series than some other people have, but even I think they're bad uninteresting poorly written characters with a boring and stupid backstory. And for whatever it's worth, I have found this to be a common opinion from other more even minded people as well. Not just haters.

The destination in this instance has been the only bit of intrigue so far. And it has been in spite of the journey, not because of it. That's why I advocate trimming down the majority of Ep3, it would be far better if heavily consolidated and spread out. If anything, the journey has actually made the destination less interesting. But the destination at least led to a couple of fun lightsaber sequences and a focus on the more interesting and better acted/written jedi characters.

I am again infinitely more interesting in Qimir and his backstory than Osha and Mae. His buildup wasn't even particularly fleshed out (everyone saw that twist coming), and we know pretty much nothing about him. But the journey to figuring out what his deal is has been vastly more intriguing than the twins' journey.

Where did I say I liked it? It serves a significant purpose.. and your 'fix' is far far worse. Considering the amount of complaining about story and value... I find it amusing the better alternatives being proposed here are to simply GUT the very structure that builds suspense, character, and exposition in the show.

I mean at the very basics... we have a show that is about two 'very special' twins... and you're basically arguing we shouldn't have a episode dedicated to who they are and where they came from? Or even spend time on the VERY CONFLICT that torments 3/4s of the main cast???

If 'fans of the show' don't get that.. then I think some 'fans' are far less competent then they think.



So you'd rather have a show about Osha as some rando... that no one understands... and Jedi without any internal conflict or past tormenting them.

For things that are the very core of the drama in the show... I have no idea why you'd delegate all that to just a few clips here and there. You'd have a story that transpires that no one cares about except seeing what happens in the present without an rationale to explain the behavior you see.

Ep3 did not provide an acceptable or interesting backstory for the twins. It was a lot of plodding nothing that doesn't build intrigue and makes the main characters more annoying and unlikeable. Hence why I said that the important parts can easily be consolidated down to 5 minutes or less and be more tolerable. And in the absense of a better backstory, it would be far better too just convey this through smaller incremental flashbacks in the other episodes. Or added to Ep7.

I would indeed rather have Osha and Mae's backstory be unknown or kept vague than what we were given. As it stands, Ep3 actively harms the rest of the series and IMO harms Ep7. Mae in particular was much more interesting to me in the first two episodes when we knew nothing about her past. And I actually do think Ep7 works better without Ep3's stupidity.

Suspense and drama was already set up in episodes 1 and 2, and it was more interesting when we knew far less about Osha and Mae's past. I don't really even care whether they cut Ep3 and consolidate a couple minutes of it into Ep7 or do the flashback thing, that's how poorly I think of like 95% of Ep3. The series would indeed have been much better without it, and nearly nothing of value would be lost.

 

[Phroobar]

Based on the massive success of season one, they have to do a season two.

 

[Disney Irish]

The "journey" with regards to the buildup of Osha and Mae has sucked and been a huge failure. I've held a more moderate opinion on this series than some other people have, but even I think they're bad uninteresting poorly written characters with a boring and stupid backstory. And for whatever it's worth, I have found this to be a common opinion from other more even minded people as well. Not just haters.

The destination in this instance has been the only bit of intrigue so far. And it has been in spite of the journey, not because of it. That's why I advocate trimming down the majority of Ep3, it would be far better if heavily consolidated and spread out. If anything, the journey has actually made the destination less interesting. But the destination at least led to a couple of fun lightsaber sequences and a focus on the more interesting and better acted/written jedi characters.

I am again infinitely more interesting in Qimir and his backstory than Osha and Mae. His buildup wasn't even particularly fleshed out (everyone saw that twist coming), and we know pretty much nothing about him. But the journey to figuring out what his deal is has been vastly more intriguing than the twins' journey.


Ep3 did not provide an acceptable or interesting backstory for the twins. It was a lot of plodding nothing that doesn't build intrigue and makes the main characters more annoying and unlikeable. Hence why I said that the important parts can easily be consolidated down to 5 minutes or less and be more tolerable. And in the absense of a better backstory, it would be far better too just convey this through smaller incremental flashbacks in the other episodes. Or added to Ep7.

I would indeed rather have Osha and Mae's backstory be unknown or kept vague than what we were given. As it stands, Ep3 actively harms the rest of the series and IMO harms Ep7. Mae in particular was much more interesting to me in the first two episodes when we knew nothing about her past. And I actually do think Ep7 works better without Ep3's stupidity.

Suspense and drama was already set up in episodes 1 and 2, and it was more interesting when we knew far less about Osha and Mae's past. I don't really even care whether they cut Ep3 and consolidate a couple minutes of it into Ep7 or do the flashback thing, that's how poorly I think of like 95% of Ep3. The series would indeed have been much better without it, and nearly nothing of value would be lost.

To me I'm interested in the journey of all these characters, especially the backstory for the twins. As I've said before in this thread I don't need wall-to-wall action packed episodes in my Star Wars shows, I actually like exposition episodes. Headland, as you've indicated in a previous post, intended to have more revealed in Season 2. So I'm fine with the way the story is being layout and acted.

I get it hasn't worked for you, as well as others. But its worked for me. So we just see it differently.

 

[flynnibus]

I am again infinitely more interesting in Qimir and his backstory than Osha and Mae. His buildup wasn't even particularly fleshed out (everyone saw that twist coming), and we know pretty much nothing about him. But the journey to figuring out what his deal is has been vastly more intriguing than the twins' journey.

I would indeed rather have Osha and Mae's backstory be unknown or kept vague than what we were given. As it stands, Ep3 actively harms the rest of the series and IMO harms Ep7. Mae in particular was much more interesting to me in the first two episodes when we knew nothing about her past. And I actually do think Ep7 works better without Ep3's stupidity.

Suspense and drama was already set up in episodes 1 and 2, and it was more interesting when we knew far less about Osha and Mae's past.

The trend I see here is you are attracted to the powerful sith.. and what story maybe behind a sith lord. Aka drawn to the power/action side of characters and less interested in what the bulk of this season is about. The significance of the twins and the human faults of the Jedi characters.

The dialog of ep7 about the vergence and the obfuscated origin of the twins from ep3 and 7 is essential to establishing why twins are significant and not just some Finn character caught up in the cross-fire of the galaxy.

To jettison all of that setup would be to demote the twins to Finn or Rose... just some randos dealing with their own baggage trying to make it through life in the galaxy that happen to stumble into a significant event we are following. That's not what these characters are - they are unique and significant to the paths of these different groups because of their uniqueness.

I get you may not have bought into caring for these characters... but I think you are glossing over the actual bigger plot while you focus on what is sexy to you.

 

[DKampy]

To me I'm interested in the journey of all these characters, especially the backstory for the twins. As I've said before in this thread I don't need wall-to-wall action packed episodes in my Star Wars shows, I actually like exposition episodes. Headland, as you've indicated in a previous post, intended to have more revealed in Season 2. So I'm fine with the way the story is being layout and acted.

I get it hasn't worked for you, as well as others. But its worked for me. So we just see it differently.

I also have not minded the way the story has played out….I have always liked slow build ups through….I feel as some expect too much wall to wall action… I actually thought this episode was interesting… there were some points they were not ready to divulge yet as it is a mystery… I saw it as episode 3 was Osha/Mae’s point of view and last nights was the 4 Jedi’s point of view

 

[Disney Irish]

I also have not minded the way the story has played out….I have always liked slow build ups through….I feel as some expect too much wall to wall action… I actually thought this episode was interesting… there were some points they were not ready to divulge yet as it is a mystery… I saw it as episode 3 was Osha/Mae’s point of view and last nights was the 4 Jedi’s point of view

Exactly, I said after the debut of the show they were doing an homage to Kurosawa's Rashomon multi-point-of-view story, and that is exactly what they've done the whole season.

 

[erasure fan1]

And the reveal of what really happened that night when they were taken.. of course it's going to be late in the show... that's been the suspense all along of 'what really happened?' 'what are the jedi hiding?' 'who knows what really...'

It's not the late in the show that's bothersome. It's the poor execution of it. Because of episode 3, this episode was a wasted episode because of the way it was constructed. It's not about what they were trying to do, it's the way they did it.

I think some people forget, its about the journey not the destination. If you just skip all the details to get to the end as fast as possible there is no payoff.

No one wants to skip the details. They just want the details presented in a logical way that makes sense. This show has struggled with that the entire season. There's a good story in there, it's just presented in a very amateur way. Too many head scratch moments, poorly paced episodes, too much wasted time relative to running time. There's also no payoff if you don't spend your time wisely and you have to rush through the ending.

in real life I have heard just as many complaints about Andor(It’s boring)….. I disagreed… Andor was my favorite of the live action Star Wars

That is correct. I personally liked it a lot, but I can say it's no wonder it didn't get watched. And the big difference between Andor and Acolyte is Andor is better in every aspect. Cinematography, dialogue, acting, how well the show is put together. The one thing they do the same is both can be very boring.

And for whatever it's worth, I have found this to be a common opinion from other more even minded people as well. Not just haters.

I'd say I've been very open minded about this show. And I agree, the journey has been executed in very amateurish fashion. People can enjoy the show, but they have to see how absolutely flawed the show is.

Exactly, I said after the debut of the show they were doing an homage to Kurosawa's Rashomon multi-point-of-view story, and that is exactly what they've done the whole season.

Sure that's what they've done. They just haven't done it well in my opinion. The multiple viewpoint story is a fine storytelling technique. The big issue I see is how much they actually rehashed. So much of last episode you didn't need to see again. And they didn't even reveal all that happened. So we're now going to need another flashback or exposition dump to get it. The last episode should be the climax of the show, we don't have the luxury of spreading this out. And like I said earlier, the shows been late 20 and early 30 min episodes. It's doubtful we get a finale that gives enough time to close this out properly.

 

[Disney Irish]

It's not the late in the show that's bothersome. It's the poor execution of it. Because of episode 3, this episode was a wasted episode because of the way it was constructed. It's not about what they were trying to do, it's the way they did it.

No one wants to skip the details. They just want the details presented in a logical way that makes sense. This show has struggled with that the entire season. There's a good story in there, it's just presented in a very amateur way. Too many head scratch moments, poorly paced episodes, too much wasted time relative to running time. There's also no payoff if you don't spend your time wisely and you have to rush through the ending.

That is correct. I personally liked it a lot, but I can say it's no wonder it didn't get watched. And the big difference between Andor and Acolyte is Andor is better in every aspect. Cinematography, dialogue, acting, how well the show is put together. The one thing they do the same is both can be very boring.

I'd say I've been very open minded about this show. And I agree, the journey has been executed in very amateurish fashion. People can enjoy the show, but they have to see how absolutely flawed the show is.

Sure that's what they've done. They just haven't done it well in my opinion. The multiple viewpoint story is a fine storytelling technique. The big issue I see is how much they actually rehashed. So much of last episode you didn't need to see again. And they didn't even reveal all that happened. So we're now going to need another flashback or exposition dump to get it. The last episode should be the climax of the show, we don't have the luxury of spreading this out. And like I said earlier, the shows been late 20 and early 30 min episodes. It's doubtful we get a finale that gives enough time to close this out properly.

I accept that people don't like how the show is presented and how the story is being told. I acknowledge that the show could be better, but that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed as is.

Personally I like the show and what they are doing with it, as I've said many times in this thread. I think that is something that some have a hard time accepting, that there are those that like the show for what it is.

 

[flynnibus]

I think that is something that some have a hard time accepting, that there are those that like the show for what it is.

and calling the thing 'amauterish' at that... I had a hard time keeping my eye rolls in check...

 

[flynnibus]

It's not the late in the show that's bothersome. It's the poor execution of it. Because of episode 3, this episode was a wasted episode because of the way it was constructed. It's not about what they were trying to do, it's the way they did it.

Yet you said...

Sure we learned a couple things but it was nothing that couldn't have been put in the earlier episode

Putting all that intel earlier in the show would have radically nerfed the jedi's story... so yes, it is significant when you say put it all up in ep3

No one wants to skip the details. They just want the details presented in a logical way that makes sense. This show has struggled with that the entire season. There's a good story in there, it's just presented in a very amateur way. Too many head scratch moments, poorly paced episodes, too much wasted time relative to running time. There's also no payoff if you don't spend your time wisely and you have to rush through the ending.

To me it sounds like you're more bothered by the short episodes and are flailing around trying to find stuff to hang on that issue to make it more of a thing.

Sure that's what they've done. They just haven't done it well in my opinion. The multiple viewpoint story is a fine storytelling technique. The big issue I see is how much they actually rehashed. So much of last episode you didn't need to see again. And they didn't even reveal all that happened

Do you watch a lot of recap shows? You seem fixated on the pace and completeness of information... something you'd get spoiled with watching a lot of recaps and post analysis shows.

 

[erasure fan1]

I accept that people don't like how the show is presented and how the story is being told. I acknowledge that the show could be better, but that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed as is.

100% correct. As I said, people can enjoy the show, there's no problem in that. There's been a lot of excuses and defending of poor execution. I like the prequels and I stick up for them, but believe me, I can rip them apart as well as anyone for their issues. No matter if you love the show or hate it, people should be able to admit when something works or when it doesn't.

 

[Disney Irish]

100% correct. As I said, people can enjoy the show, there's no problem in that. There's been a lot of excuses and defending of poor execution. I like the prequels and I stick up for them, but believe me, I can rip them apart as well as anyone for their issues. No matter if you love the show or hate it, people should be able to admit when something works or when it doesn't.

But what if what is present works for someone? I can acknowledge that people have issues with things in the various different SW content, but I've never run up against any of them. So why can't it be that someone just likes something and doesn't have an issue with it?

 

[erasure fan1]

Putting all that intel earlier in the show would have radically nerfed the jedi's story... so yes, it is significant when you say put it all up in ep3

If you go back, you would see I said that the show would have worked better if they changed it up a bit. The episode could have continued on with only going to the flashbacks to see the new relevant information. Keeping the show from repeating a whole lot of information we already have seen. Again, it's not about putting that information earlier in the show. It's about finding a better way to present it.

To me it sounds like you're more bothered by the short episodes and are flailing around trying to find stuff to hang on that issue to make it more of a thing.

I don't mind shorter episodes. What I mind is shorter episodes, in a short season, with too much filler. In a short season you need to optimize what you have on the screen. This show hasn't done that very well.

Do you watch a lot of recap shows? You seem fixated on the pace and completeness of information... something you'd get spoiled with watching a lot of recaps and post analysis shows.

Not really. Is there something wrong with questioning pace and completeness? Those seem pretty important in my eyes. As I said, there's a good story in there if the production quality could have been better. I'm not sure why that's a hot take?

 

[erasure fan1]

But what if what is present works for someone? I can acknowledge that people have issues with things in the various different SW content, but I've never run up against any of them. So why can't it be that someone just likes something and doesn't have an issue with it?

I guess. But if it all works for you, why could it be better as you say? Again, it's fine if you can look past flaws, god knows I do. But if I said Haydens dialogue really worked for me as well as his acting, I'd look kinda foolish. Sure I can look past it, but that doesn't make it good all of a sudden.

 

[Disney Irish]

I guess. But if it all works for you, why could it be better as you say? Again, it's fine if you can look past flaws, god knows I do. But if I said Haydens dialogue really worked for me as well as his acting, I'd look kinda foolish. Sure I can look past it, but that doesn't make it good all of a sudden.

Everything can be better in some context, heck Citizen Kane could be better as it doesn't appeal to all, but that doesn't make it any less enjoyable for those that don't have issues with it.

 

[erasure fan1]

and calling the thing 'amauterish' at that... I had a hard time keeping my eye rolls in check...

Ok. Tell me how it's not from a story production standpoint. The special effects are great, and the few fight scenes have been good. Outside of that it's been extremely spotty. Go watch Andor again as a comparison. Compared to a lot of other shows this doesn't hold up. You can look past the flaws and still like it. But to think they're not an issue, that's a bit eye roll.

 

[erasure fan1]

Everything can be better in some context, heck Citizen Kane could be better as it doesn't appeal to all, but that doesn't make it any less enjoyable for those that don't have issues with it.

I'm really not sure what you are arguing at this point. I never said you or anyone couldn't like the show. Just because I think there's issues with the way this show has unfolded, doesn't mean it's an attack on you.

 

[Disney Irish]

I'm really not sure what you are arguing at this point. I never said you or anyone couldn't like the show. Just because I think there's issues with the way this show has unfolded, doesn't mean it's an attack on you.

I never said it was an attack on me, I accept what you've said in a general sense and not toward me personally. What I'm saying however is that there are people that are just going enjoy something and not see issues with things that you or others have an issue with. You asked why I said things could be better, I gave you an answer and even an example. That everything can be better from a certain point-of-view, even something seen as a great work of art like Citizen Kane.

The long and short of it is that everyone comes from a different perspective. Just because you and some others here find flaws and issues in this show and other Star Wars content doesn't mean that others will agree or even see the same flaws and issues or any at all. That doesn't mean someone isn't being critical, it just means they have a different perspective.

 

[MarvelCharacterNerd]

I spent this entire episode asking why it wasn't just a two minute exposition scene with Sol.

Plus having a grown man suddenly get intensely obsessed with basically taking possession of a little girl? That was just... ick... the way that played out.