Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[Nubs70]

You are simplifying this far too much. Hospitals are not solely staffed by nurses. Don't forget about other specialists like respiratory therapists, xray technicians, or pharmacists, and even...doctors?

U.S. will deploy troops to help hospitals during omicron wave, distribute free Covid tests starting in January

Public health officials now fear the omicron variant will overwhelm hospitals with another wave of patients.

www.cnbc.com

Somehow a previous administration was able to set up field hospitals, deploy hospital ships etc. Now we can't do it. If this is as bad as everyone seems to think it will be, then we need to figure out how to make it happen.

No goal was every achieved with an intitial mission statement of "We Can't"

 

[Nubs70]

After nearly two years, scientists at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research believe they have developed a vaccine that is effective against all COVID and SARS variants...

So not new, new and only phase 1 data? I'll keep waiting... https://eidresearch.org/news/press-...rts-armys-pan-coronavirus-vaccine-development

Hesitant??

 

[GimpYancIent]

Looks like we have a new improved vaccine

Army to announce vaccine that protects from ALL COVID, SARS variants

Walter Reed Army Institute of Research is set to announce a vaccine that effectively protects against all COVID and SARS variants after nearly two years of research.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Thankfully, despite all the banter, click bait, rumor and story telling the researchers, lab techs and other professionals in the medical and research fields continue to diligently / quietly develop counter measures. I like it.

 

[correcaminos]

Hesitant??

I'll stupidly bite, since you know darn well I jumped in early in 2020. I mean we're barely getting human data. We all have to wait.

I cannot get this if it came out without dropping the trial anyway. I'd push for all who can get it to get it if it comes through other trial phases soon. Just looks like it's slow if you read the article I gave. Phase 1 in April 2021.... we'll all be waiting. As an FYI Pfizer-BioNTech was doing Phase 1/2 in May 2020 and approved December 2020. Not seeing phase 2 or 3 for this yet.

 

[Touchdown]

Where in the Constitution does it say that the federal government, or more specifically the Executive Branch, can mandate vaccines? This is why challenges are being heard in the Supreme Court - to clarify both questions.

It’s not actually the executive branch by itself it’s very nuanced:

1. For health care workers, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid services will be revising payment rules and regulation such that in order to get paid your employees need to be vaccinated. This is a so called “power of the purse” move. It has been used by CMS many times before to force things on the healthcare industry (electronic medical records, JACHO certification for hospitals, etc.). Healthcare industry components doesn’t have to comply, but if it doesn’t then It loses its largest payer source. This is a tried and true tactic that has been used for everything from speed limits to minimum drinking age and I don’t see how it’s not going to be held up in court.

2. For large employers OSHA, an executive branch agency imbued with the powers to regulate workplace safety by Congress, is mandating a vaccine or testing procedure. Most of the lawsuits for this one are focusing on if the process for making this rule are being correctly followed, and are centered on the fact (at least initially) if doing so under an emergency order is valid. Meanwhile, OSHA has already started the standard way to apply a new rule that takes longer but will be harder to challenge. If anything has a chance of being overturned it’s this aspect.

3. Finally for employees and contractors of the federal govt the President, acting as the head or boss of those workers has mandated it. Provided it is not discriminatory towards the disabled (must accept medical exemptions,) race/sex (this applies to all so it’s not) or religious beliefs (need to accept religious exemptions) he is well within his power, which is why those cases have all been dismissed.

 

[Heppenheimer]

I'll be honest, I know some test hoarders who pick up tests they don't need. Much like tomato sauce and domino dk brown sugar locally, I cannot find tests here. I was going to test knowing asymptomatic rapid tests are not great, to calm fears of a sibling, but no go. Still concerned that come Thursday they won't hop in the car after all.

People need to stop hoarding crap. That's my rant. A lady near me in line's family all had covid recently so why try to get tests? I struck out - ran out just before I got to the door.

Like clockwork... at the first inkling of scarcity, the hoarding commences.

 

[GimpYancIent]

Like clockwork... at the first inkling of scarcity, the hoarding commences.

Hey Doc, what is the expiration / shelf life for these tests? I seriously doubt these hoarders can store whatever quantities of tests they score in optimal storage conditions.

 

[Touchdown]

U.S. will deploy troops to help hospitals during omicron wave, distribute free Covid tests starting in January

Public health officials now fear the omicron variant will overwhelm hospitals with another wave of patients.

www.cnbc.com

Somehow a previous administration was able to set up field hospitals, deploy hospital ships etc. Now we can't do it. If this is as bad as everyone seems to think it will be, then we need to figure out how to make it happen.

No goal was every achieved with an intitial mission statement of "We Can't"

They were not effective, because of lack of resources (high flow oxygen, IV pumps, etc.) and lack of staff (seriously the current problem right now is a lack of nursing staff, due to burnout and nursing wages staying flat while minimum wages have risen has caused the current problem) they would not fix the problem.

We need more nurses, they don’t grow on trees and a lot of them left because of how terrible work has been for the past two years. On top of that, healthcare companies are realling from how much money they lost in 2020 and cannot afford to raise wages for their employees at a time when wages are increasing, making those jobs less desirable. Unlike every other aspect of life, Medicare will be cutting reimbursement this year unless Congress acts, and it is highly unlikely that Congress will do anything other then freeze the rates.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

The Federal Government only has powers that are specifically delineated by the Constitution.

There is nothing in the Constitution that gives the Feds the power to mandate vaccines, therefore, they can't.

If it seems that the Feds have total autocratic powers... it's because of creeping Federalism in which the interpretation of the powers given to the Feds continually gets broadened.

*A lot* of Federal regulation, e.g., is based on the Commerce Clause (if it happens across state lines, the Feds are in control). All three branches have wittingly or unwittingly given themselves and the other branches more and more power. Also, international issues (like wars) tend to favor giving the Feds more and more power. And Congress has been reluctant to reign in Executive power for decades, or, not providing the legislation needed in new situations, forcing the Chief Executive (and all the Federal Agencies) to make up their own rules.

However, this isn't entirely unchecked. The courts do regularly slap down Congressional or Executive overreach (at times expanding their own powers to do so).

Anyhoo... getting back to what the Feds can do with regard to vaccine mandates... they can't.

States have all the power that the Constitution hasn't relegated to Congress or limited through delineating the rights of individuals. There is no Constitutional right to be free from enforced vaccinations. So... the states can do that. And if we don't like that... there's the voting booth.

Yeah, I deleted the post. Shouldn't have posted it in the first place.

 

[lazyboy97o]

You are simplifying this far too much. Hospitals are not solely staffed by nurses. Don't forget about other specialists like respiratory therapists, xray technicians, or pharmacists, and even...doctors?

It’s not just specialists. You need custodial staff to keep facilities clean. Kitchen staff to feed patients.

U.S. will deploy troops to help hospitals during omicron wave, distribute free Covid tests starting in January

Public health officials now fear the omicron variant will overwhelm hospitals with another wave of patients.

www.cnbc.com

Somehow a previous administration was able to set up field hospitals, deploy hospital ships etc. Now we can't do it. If this is as bad as everyone seems to think it will be, then we need to figure out how to make it happen.

No goal was every achieved with an intitial mission statement of "We Can't"

Oh what nonsense. You’re whole “Build more hospitals” shtick is because you’ve decided “We can’t” get cases down to a more manageable level.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Hey Doc, what is the expiration / shelf life for these tests? I seriously doubt these hoarders can store whatever quantities of tests they score in optimal storage conditions.

No idea. I can ask the hospital pathologist if he knows when I go back to work tomorrow.

 

[mmascari]

Plow forwards to start thinking like February 2020 and let’s be together again without the fear of catching Covid and ending up in the hospital and dying.

I’m not sure how I’m putting you at risk by thinking that, but I’m open to understand your perspective.

Um, we've been doing this for months already? Perhaps you have a different definition of "plow forward".

We're moving forward just fine. Doing things, not everything, but still plenty of things. They've all just been adjusted for the new risk profile.

Going to an enclosed space with random people - wear a mask.
Having people in the house - make sure they're vaccinated.
Traveling to visit people in other areas with different pools of exposure - test first.
Eating in a packed restaurant, close together with random people, with questionable ventilation - not doing, as the risk profile changed. Just like we wouldn't eat at a restaurant with a poor health department rating. Eliminate some of those, and the restaurant may be fine.

It's the new forward. Plowing just fine.

Would it be nice to go back to the summer of 2019 and hang out in a packed bar, shoulder to shoulder drinking and cheering some event with everyone right on top of each other without a care in the world? Maybe, but that's probably just gone forever. It's the new forward.

Month to month, I would like to see the risk profile reduce instead of increase, as then forward can involve less and less thought.

 

[danlb_2000]

U.S. will deploy troops to help hospitals during omicron wave, distribute free Covid tests starting in January

Public health officials now fear the omicron variant will overwhelm hospitals with another wave of patients.

www.cnbc.com

Somehow a previous administration was able to set up field hospitals, deploy hospital ships etc. Now we can't do it. If this is as bad as everyone seems to think it will be, then we need to figure out how to make it happen.

No goal was every achieved with an intitial mission statement of "We Can't"

Not sure why you are saying "we can't do it"? Based on the article it sounds like they are already deploying support to areas that are already having problems, and will be ready to send out more once we know where they are needed. A lot of field hospitals were setup early in the pandemic but were never used. Rather see us focus on sending resources where they are actually needed.

 

[mmascari]

If the infection rate can be reduced / slowed all the numbers will not be climbing at such rates. Think of it less infections will = less death.

If only there was a cheap, easy, and durable way to do this?

Maybe someone will come up with something to achieve this. We can only hope.

 

[mmascari]

It’s not actually the executive branch by itself it’s very nuanced:

1. For health care workers, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid services will be revising payment rules and regulation such that in order to get paid your employees need to be vaccinated. This is a so called “power of the purse” move. It has been used by CMS many times before to force things on the healthcare industry (electronic medical records, JACHO certification for hospitals, etc.). Healthcare industry components doesn’t have to comply, but if it doesn’t then It loses its largest payer source. This is a tried and true tactic that has been used for everything from speed limits to minimum drinking age and I don’t see how it’s not going to be held up in court.

2. For large employers OSHA, an executive branch agency imbued with the powers to regulate workplace safety by Congress, is mandating a vaccine or testing procedure. Most of the lawsuits for this one are focusing on if the process for making this rule are being correctly followed, and are centered on the fact (at least initially) if doing so under an emergency order is valid. Meanwhile, OSHA has already started the standard way to apply a new rule that takes longer but will be harder to challenge. If anything has a chance of being overturned it’s this aspect.

3. Finally for employees and contractors of the federal govt the President, acting as the head or boss of those workers has mandated it. Provided it is not discriminatory towards the disabled (must accept medical exemptions,) race/sex (this applies to all so it’s not) or religious beliefs (need to accept religious exemptions) he is well within his power, which is why those cases have all been dismissed.

So, we'll get there. It's just going to take longer than it needs to.

Remember when leaders could set a goal, propose a plan, and people would rally to the cause because it was the right thing to do. Like prevent sickness and hardship.

Instead, everything has to be a fight. If there's no way to enforce it, nobody wants to even do it.

Like waiting the line queue for a ride. Do people get in line because that's the right thing to do instead of just cutting right to the front. Or, do they only do that because they're worried about being thrown out of park?

I suppose this also explains why I saw someone make a left on red instead of waiting the minute for the light to change recently too.

 

[sullyinMT]

Um, we've been doing this for months already? Perhaps you have a different definition of "plow forward".

We're moving forward just fine. Doing things, not everything, but still plenty of things. They've all just been adjusted for the new risk profile.

Going to an enclosed space with random people - wear a mask.
Having people in the house - make sure they're vaccinated.
Traveling to visit people in other areas with different pools of exposure - test first.
Eating in a packed restaurant, close together with random people, with questionable ventilation - not doing, as the risk profile changed. Just like we wouldn't eat at a restaurant with a poor health department rating. Eliminate some of those, and the restaurant may be fine.

It's the new forward. Plowing just fine.

Would it be nice to go back to the summer of 2019 and hang out in a packed bar, shoulder to shoulder drinking and cheering some event with everyone right on top of each other without a care in the world? Maybe, but that's probably just gone forever. It's the new forward.

Month to month, I would like to see the risk profile reduce instead of increase, as then forward can involve less and less thought.

I'd love to just be able to travel internationally without worry of popping positive, asymptomatic, and being stuck in Copenhagen or wherever and worrying about my employment status upon return. First world problems, I know.

I'm hoping, perhaps still naively, that eventually a variant will come along that decouples cases and hospitalization/death to the point where "plow forward" means no mitigation beyond vaccination, because the other societal effects mirror other illness. Of course, something new could rear its head after that occurs, and we could adjust accordingly. But I'd like a period like this past summer that lasts for six months or more and allows for everything to actually drop. Not just bullheaded push ahead, but meaningful change in public health concern. Without more people vaccinated, whether by mandates or finally coming around, I doubt we'll get there soon.

I agree, though, that for daily life, we're largely back to normal enough for all intents and purposes.

 

[Lilofan]

I should have included the fact I received my initial shot in February and my second in March. My wife got hers in January and it took no time to sign her up. I took weeks and tried every site. The mass sites signups stunk and the Drug stores were done by individual stores. But I spent the time because I care for my wife.

Agreed. It was a mess to get signed up. My family kept searching online even pre dawn hours and then found an appt online.

 

[dreday3]

I'd love to just be able to travel internationally without worry of popping positive, likely asymptomatic, and being stuck in Copenhagen or wherever and worrying about my employment status upon return. First world problems, I know.

Eventually, at some point, further down the road, in the distance, one day... - we will get to the point of reporting just on hospitalizations and not positive cases.
Even Fauci was discussing that we will have to start shifting focus from reporting and concentrating on positives to hospitalizations/death once we see that most positives are mild and/or asymptomatic.

If hospitalizations (ever) go down and stay down and people testing positive are mostly mild cases - it would be like requiring people to test for the flu before they go somewhere. Which I suppose could start happening, but I hope not.

Obviously this is when (if..but we will) we get this all under control! We will, soon, possibly, perhaps, time will tell, live today like there's no tomorrow!

 

[mmascari]

to the point where "plow forward" means no mitigation beyond vaccination, because the other societal effects mirror other illness.

That would be amazing. Let's get there.

I think we can get there, even with the current variants. It'll just take more vaccinated. Might be a lot more, don't know yet.

Without more people vaccinated, whether by mandates or finally coming around, I doubt we'll get there soon.

My guess is it's going to take 10 years. Which is sad, I realize.

My wife thinks I'm pessimistic, that we'll get there in only 5 years.

 

[DisneyCane]

Where in the Constitution does it say that the federal government, or more specifically the Executive Branch, can mandate vaccines? This is why challenges are being heard in the Supreme Court - to clarify both questions.

I think it's less of a constitutional question and more of a legislation/separation of powers question. Basically, has Congress given the authority to the executive branch through laws that have been passed.