News Zootopia and Moana Blue Sky concepts for Disney's Animal Kingdom

[peter11435]

I've worked in Disney for 5 years, 1 in Animal Kingdom, specifically Dinoland, but yeah no, you're right, I "don't understand" the park. The fact is that if you were actually able to see what Guests have been saying about Dinoland and Animal Kingdom over the past couple of years, you would be able to see that outside of this forum it is not nearly as popular as a lot of you seem think it is, and understand that sticking to a dogmatic and static view of what Animal Kingdom is, is a flawed way to think.

Dinoland is a outdated idea at its core. I love Joe Rhode as much as anyone here, and I think he is brilliant, but the land was a vanity project for him. He is also no longer involved with Disney and Imagineering. It's time for others to have an influence over the future of this park. The other, inescapable fact is that change is coming, whether the commenters here like it or not. So if the only ideas you have are to refurbish Dinosaur and add another non descript ride into Dinorama, then I'm glad you're not the ones in charge of those changes.

Dinoland needing updated or replaced can be true but does not require an unfitting replacement.

 

[Coaster Lover]

but the theme of animal kingdom is not simply animals

I'm genuinely curious how you would describe the theme of Animal Kingdom (seperate from the mission of the park). I'm sure there is a lot of common ground in the way we feel about this. For the record, I'm in agreement with you that I don't believe that Moana and Zootopia belong in Animal Kingdom... my standpoint though is that they don't belong because they don't fit the mission, the GP will embrace Moana and Zootopia because (I believe) the GP will embrace Moana and Zootopia as fitting in with what the GP perceives the theme of the park to be.

 

[JoeCamel]

I'm genuinely curious how you would describe the theme of Animal Kingdom (seperate from the mission of the park). I'm sure there is a lot of common ground in the way we feel about this. For the record, I'm in agreement with you that I don't believe that Moana and Zootopia belong in Animal Kingdom... my standpoint though is that they don't belong because they don't fit the mission, the GP will embrace Moana and Zootopia because (I believe) the GP will embrace Moana and Zootopia as fitting in with what the GP perceives the theme of the park to be.

My 2 cents is that I take it from the responsible party...

"ROHDE: Everything at Animal Kingdom is predicated on a set of thematic ideas and those thematic ideas are consistent throughout. They are this notion of the intrinsic, unchanging and supreme value of nature and how everything we do expresses this, this notion of adventure as a psychological phenomenon, and adventure as a form of change, for yourself to go somewhere, you’ve never been, to see something you’ve never seen, and to do something you’ve never done. And then, there’s this personal call to action that is both our own and one that we put forward to our guests. If you think about this supreme intrinsic value of nature, psychological adventure and change, and personal call to action, those themes underline the Avatar brand, as well. "

Zooland does not belong

 

[Incomudro]

I think many may be confusing "theme" with "mission". The "theme" of animal kingdom is animals and the "kingdoms" they live in and this is really all the GP see (and care about). To the GP, if it's animals, it belongs at Animal Kingdom. Now we, as intellectuals who know far too much about Disney, know that Animal Kingdom has a beautifully established mission of showing the balance between humans and animals and how important it is to protect and value animals lest we lose them forever... and if you REALLY look at the park, that mission is visible... but the GP doesn't care about that (or at least most of them don't). Would Moana and Zootopia ruin the theme of Animal Kingdom? No (they would fit the theme a lot better than plopping a Tron or Test Track or Frozen ride in Animal Kingdom). Do they further the mission of the park? Moana is a hard sell... Zootopia is an even harder sell... Would the GP care? No... they'd love a good Moana water ride and it would quickly become one of the longest lines in the park...

I think you're selling the general public short.
Certainly, there is a portion of them - like there is on this forum that thinks "If it's got animals it belongs in AK."
What that portion is, I don't know - but I believe that AK is so well done to look like a natural environment that more people get it's mission and theme than might otherwise.
Just like animals living in cities with jobs, and driving vehicles would clash in a zoo - and most people would get that.
I believe most of them get that here in Animal Kingdom as well.
In any event, those in charge shouldn't give up the theme just because some portion of the park goers don't get it.
AK in particular is one of the last remaining Disney parks that actually makes an effort on educating the public as to what the theme is.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I'm genuinely curious how you would describe the theme of Animal Kingdom (seperate from the mission of the park). I'm sure there is a lot of common ground in the way we feel about this. For the record, I'm in agreement with you that I don't believe that Moana and Zootopia belong in Animal Kingdom... my standpoint though is that they don't belong because they don't fit the mission, the GP will embrace Moana and Zootopia because (I believe) the GP will embrace Moana and Zootopia as fitting in with what the GP perceives the theme of the park to be.

I think you’re trying to parse out a distinction that doesn’t really exist between theme and mission. The theme is the central ideas of a themed experience.

 

[Epcot82Guy]

I would offer a different angle to use when looking at this. Theme is about experience. Meaning, it should arise organically. You can make a statement, try to justify, etc. as much as you want. It's about how a person experiences the land. Pretend someone who speaks no English at all walks around the park. Would they say "animals" or something different? Would they be able to identify the themes? And, at what depth? And, how much does it make (or doesn't make) sense? I don't think "animals" is the theme most see nearly as much as nature, wildlife, exploring a natural world/place, etc.

That is obviously a very personal thing, but that's the litmus test. I would argue Zootopia falls into the same category as Chester and Hester's. It doesn't fit the feel or ascetic of the rest of the park. While "fun", it sticks out. That means it's shallow theme. And, that's fine if that's your intended audience. But, there is a material portion of the Disney Parks fan base who grew up with something deeper and want that. That's part of the "magic".

Epcot and DAK (and formerly DHS) had strong overarching themes. MK, while looser as all Castle parks, had the concept of "lands" which themselves had strong overarching themes. These moves are about popular characters with loose ties, not theme.

I can move the modern Starbucks from Disney Springs next to Geyser Point at Wilderness Lodge under the "theme" of the Pacific Northwest. Some will love it. I'd argue it would cheapen the resort's theme significantly, and I don't think I'm alone in that.

 

[Bocabear]

Moana with the message of protecting the ocean and the environment fits kind of perfectly into the fabric of Animal Kingdom... The carnival area could be completely reimagined as a Pacific Seas area with tidal pools for animal discovery like Sea World used to do...a Polynesian village with shops and restaurant, A discovery trail like the Asia and Africa trails featuring wildlife indigenous to that region, and a really great water-based ride featuring Moana... With it's proximity to the Finding Nemo show, it could all make sense...
Zootopia is the thing that doesn't fit unless as someone else suggested, it was at the Planet Watch location and the train ride could be the transition to the Zootopia World...

 

[LSLS]

The biggest issue in my mind is we are again getting a net 0 gain in attractions. Retheming Dino is a great idea in theory, but replacing the 3 attractions in Dino with 3 different ones isn't fixing the much bigger issues at AK. Even if they go ahead with Phase 1 and phase 2, they desperately need NEW things for a phase 3. Not re-dos or replacements.

 

[doctornick]

The biggest issue in my mind is we are again getting a net 0 gain in attractions. Retheming Dino is a great idea in theory, but replacing the 3 attractions in Dino with 3 different ones isn't fixing the much bigger issues at AK. Even if they go ahead with Phase 1 and phase 2, they desperately need NEW things for a phase 3. Not re-dos or replacements.

Yep. This is the bigger issue. If they go through with this, they would be spending a crapload of money at DAK... and not addressing the capacity issues at all. Okay, the Moana ride would probably be better capacity wise than Primeval Whirl (which is gone anyway so that capacity is non-existent now) and that fine. But even ignoring all the "the park should have dinosaurs" or "Zootopia doesn't fit arguments", why spend a ton of money to replace Dinosaur (the ride) when the park need more stuff overall.

If they are dead set with adding Zootopia then add it somewhere in the park as a new build, not a replacement.

 

[Epcot82Guy]

Moana with the message of protecting the ocean and the environment fits kind of perfectly into the fabric of Animal Kingdom... The carnival area could be completely reimagined as a Pacific Seas area with tidal pools for animal discovery like Sea World used to do...a Polynesian village with shops and restaurant, A discovery trail like the Asia and Africa trails featuring wildlife indigenous to that region, and a really great water-based ride featuring Moana... With it's proximity to the Finding Nemo show, it could all make sense...
Zootopia is the thing that doesn't fit unless as someone else suggested, it was at the Plane Watch location and the train ride could be the transition to the Zootopia World...

Agreed. It also could go the Avatar route, focusing on sea life vs. the region. I've always wondered how to get an "aquarium" into Animal Kingdom organicall. A "Moana Pandora", focused on the water and its energy and creatures could actually be very well done for both the IP and the Park's theme and message.

(I will note Journey of Water would have been a wonderful central addition to such an area as well... but that ship (pun intended) has sailed unfortunately.)

 

[Dranth]

The fact is that if you were actually able to see what Guests have been saying about Dinoland and Animal Kingdom over the past couple of years, you would be able to see that outside of this forum it is not nearly as popular as a lot of you seem think it is, and understand that sticking to a dogmatic and static view of what Animal Kingdom is, is a flawed way to think.

If this is what management is responding to then they are worse at their jobs than I thought.

One of the big problems any management team faces is figuring out how to give the customers what they are really asking for, not what they say they want.

Let's look at Harmonious. It checks EVERY box the average fan wanted at Epcot. More Disney characters, more modern movies, lots of beloved music, lot of new, updated tech... and it sucked. Even if many guests couldn't explain exactly why, they just didn't like it as much and now, after spending a boat load of money, they have to go fix their mistake because they gave the guests "what they asked for".

Zootopia has the same problem as harmonious in that is does not exactly fit. Sure, if it is a good ride people will forgive a lot but I would suggest that if they made a Zootopia area with a good ride, the exact same ride system but themed to Jungle Book would get a higher guest satisfaction rating because it is not only a "new" ride, it is also a better fit.

Theme matters even if people can't explain why.

 

[Incomudro]

If this is what management is responding to then they are worse at their jobs then I thought.

One of the big problems any management team faces is figuring out how to give the customers what they are really asking for, not what they say they want.

Let's look at Harmonious. It checks EVERY box the average fan wanted at Epcot. More Disney characters, more modern movies, lots of beloved music, lot of new, updated tech... and it sucked. Even if many guests couldn't explain exactly why, they just didn't like it as much and now, after spending a boat load of money, they have to go fix their mistake because they gave the guests "what they asked for".

Zootopia has the same problem as harmonious in that is does not exactly fit. Sure, if it is a good ride people will forgive a lot but I would suggest that if they made a Zootopia area with a good ride, the exact same ride system but themed to Jungle Book would get a higher guest satisfaction rating because it is not only a "new" ride, it is also a better fit.

Theme matters even if people can't explain why.

There's a reason art, from music to theme parks, to automotive design etc., is not produced by guests/consumers.
Most of us have no clue how to do it.
The best art comes from the artists visions - not the public's.

 

[RSoxNo1]

This, I can get behind... What would be great (but would never happen) is if they bulldozed the living seas at Epcot and built a brand new Nemo/Dory-Themed aquarium at AK, complete with the musical, a nemo dark ride (exiting into the aquarium, but a better ride) and Turtle Talk.

I would argue you wouldn't even need Moana. Especially since she's going to Epcot. Just make a fully-fleshed out Nemo-Aquatic themed land, and condense the Dinosaurs down a little, so we still have the dinos plus the E-Ticket (when it wants to be) over there in the corner.

I wouldn't oppose this, but it could be argued that the original Finding Nemo isn't really about conservation or nature. It's also not that big of a leap to tell a story with those characters that gets you there. Turtle Talk with Crush would absolutely work in the Animal Kingdom. As would a ride driven by Mr. Ray educating the class and guests about the oceans.

That being said, I don't see Disney adding substantial animal exhibits to Disney's Animal Kingdom. There may be smaller exhibits included as part of any expansion, but I would be shocked if something the scale of The Living Seas or Kilimanjaro Safaris was ever built again. Blackfish had to scare them, and it's simply not worth the risk when they don't know what's going to raise the ire of critics next.

I would offer a different angle to use when looking at this. Theme is about experience. Meaning, it should arise organically. You can make a statement, try to justify, etc. as much as you want. It's about how a person experiences the land. Pretend someone who speaks no English at all walks around the park. Would they say "animals" or something different? Would they be able to identify the themes? And, at what depth? And, how much does it make (or doesn't make) sense? I don't think "animals" is the theme most see nearly as much as nature, wildlife, exploring a natural world/place, etc.

That is obviously a very personal thing, but that's the litmus test. I would argue Zootopia falls into the same category as Chester and Hester's. It doesn't fit the feel or ascetic of the rest of the park. While "fun", it sticks out. That means it's shallow theme. And, that's fine if that's your intended audience. But, there is a material portion of the Disney Parks fan base who grew up with something deeper and want that. That's part of the "magic".

Epcot and DAK (and formerly DHS) had strong overarching themes. MK, while looser as all Castle parks, had the concept of "lands" which themselves had strong overarching themes. These moves are about popular characters with loose ties, not theme.

I can move the modern Starbucks from Disney Springs next to Geyser Point at Wilderness Lodge under the "theme" of the Pacific Northwest. Some will love it. I'd argue it would cheapen the resort's theme significantly, and I don't think I'm alone in that.

Moana with the message of protecting the ocean and the environment fits kind of perfectly into the fabric of Animal Kingdom... The carnival area could be completely reimagined as a Pacific Seas area with tidal pools for animal discovery like Sea World used to do...a Polynesian village with shops and restaurant, A discovery trail like the Asia and Africa trails featuring wildlife indigenous to that region, and a really great water-based ride featuring Moana... With it's proximity to the Finding Nemo show, it could all make sense...
Zootopia is the thing that doesn't fit unless as someone else suggested, it was at the Plane Watch location and the train ride could be the transition to the Zootopia World...

There are very easy story treatments that put Moana into Disney's Animal Kingdom. I would argue that it's an easier fit than Pandora, and under Rohde's guidance Pandora fit the park seamlessly.

Imagine if during the D23 Expo they didn't present Moana and Zootopia as a blue sky concept and instead they announced that Oceania was taking over Dinorama and we'd see the Nemo theater, Turtle with Crush, Moana Mountain and a spinner make up that land, we'd be happy. It also would have helped if they didn't act like they were about to announce Dreamfinder and Figment teaming up again for a new ride before letting us down with the Figzilla meet and greet.

 

[Bocabear]

The biggest issue in my mind is we are again getting a net 0 gain in attractions. Retheming Dino is a great idea in theory, but replacing the 3 attractions in Dino with 3 different ones isn't fixing the much bigger issues at AK. Even if they go ahead with Phase 1 and phase 2, they desperately need NEW things for a phase 3. Not re-dos or replacements.

Dino is down to 2 attractions at this point... A new Pacific Island themed area could have 3 attractions...biggest problem is the current management's lack of motivation to do anything like that. The Star Wars big build is testament to that...All that construction and two attractions... Like Pandora... not-quite finished additions in all cases...

 

[RSoxNo1]

Dino is down to 2 attractions at this point... A new Pacific Island themed area could have 3 attractions...biggest problem is the current management's lack of motivation to do anything like that. The Star Wars big build is testament to that...All that construction and two attractions... Like Pandora... not-quite finished additions in all cases...

Galaxy's Edge was also an infrastructure play as well, of course they didn't build the actual Table Service restaurant that was needed, but they did still add a significant retail presence and a large quick service. Neither would be necessary as part of an Oceania / Pacific Island section.

A Moana flume, spinner and shop SHOULD be under $400 mil. Probably under $300 mil. It won't be, but it should.

 

[Epcot82Guy]

There are very easy story treatments that put Moana into Disney's Animal Kingdom. I would argue that it's an easier fit than Pandora, and under Rohde's guidance Pandora fit the park seamlessly.

I agree. My point was more that there is more than one way to make it work effectively (i.e. Oceania or something more akin to Pandora). Plus, there are others - as you note.

The park's focus is on our interaction with the natural world. There are exceptions like Nemo and FotlK. But, that is the clear setting of all stories there I would say. That could be educational. It could be inspirational. It could be adventurous. All sorts of things.

Much like ditching Epcot's focus on real world stories, there are many stories that are compelling and work within these relatively light constraints. It really begins to feel like ego, popularity and other non-creative decisions...

 

[UNCgolf]

maybe they could put zootopia where rafiki’s planet watch is and retheme that area (but still have petting zoo etc there)

Not without doing a bunch of additional construction work. They'd have to build a walkway since the train can't move enough people, but the problem with doing that is that it would be a relatively long walk through nothing. They'd really need to build some additional stuff (bathrooms, QS location, etc.) along the way.

 

[Brer Panther]

A "Moana Pandora", focused on the water and its energy and creatures could actually be very well done for both the IP and the Park's theme and message.

I sincerely doubt this Moana land is going to focus on animals or the environment. The Moana flume ride is likely just going to be a sequel to the movie focusing on Moana (and maybe Maui too) showing what a mighty, positive role model she is a la Tiana's Bayou Adventure and its stupid "Tiana runs a food processing corporation" premise, and I don't see how the coconut warrior guys reskin of Triceratops Spin will have to do with animals or the environment at all (not that Triceratops Spin did, granted).

 

[Epcot82Guy]

I sincerely doubt this Moana land is going to focus on animals or the environment. The Moana flume ride is likely just going to be a sequel to the movie focusing on Moana (and maybe Maui too) showing what a mighty, positive role model she is a la Tiana's Bayou Adventure and its stupid "Tiana runs a food processing corporation" premise, and I don't see how the coconut warrior guys reskin of Triceratops Spin will have to do with animals or the environment at all (not that Triceratops Spin did, granted).

Oh... Unfortunately, the distinction of can, could, should and will with modern Disney are very, very important in this conversation - even though they really don't need to be.

And that's what's so sad.

 

[Elijah Abrams]

I’m guessing that the ideas for Zootopia and Moana in Ak, as well as Encanto, Villains, and Coco in MK, is just Disney having a panic attack over Universal's Epic Universe. I’m sure they’ll forget about it, move on, and try something else like DinoAustraliaLand and South America for AK.