Will There Every Be a 5th Major Park?

H2Opolo15

Member
Original Poster
I would completely agree with the above statement. Altho to many "hardcore" Disney fan's it is amazing it's not the show stopper that's going to bring in more people like Harry Potter now is at Universal.

What I think would be a great addition to AK is a Lion King attraction. Aside from the Festival of The Lion King there really isn't anything. And to me it is one of the most well known Disney movies of all time.

And I would just like to reiterate that this "Pixar Place" needs to happen and expand off of just the Toy Story Mania because that line is just way too long because the people who run it door a poor job of getting fastpass and general admission in. They do just fastpass if there is anyone in the line. I'm not sure if this is policy or something but it's extremely annoying to not move for 15-20 minutes while in the stand-by line.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
a) cost benefit of extra stores on this path - Any retail location on this 'side path' would be considered 'secondary' to the main st retail...why? because, and forgive the pun....it's not on a main path. No store owner wants a side street when his competition is on the 'main st' Basic site planning 101....Then we're talking about cost-benefit here. Is it worthwhile to build stores, staff and stock them? Just for a side path? The point at which I think it becomes worthwhile is if it *is* a main path....and the only way to do that is to divert approximately half of your park guests down this path.....this leads into point b.

The addition of the store(s) pays back the cost of adding the path and the relocation costs for the existing infrastructure. If this location is considered secondary, wouldn't every store location not on main street also have the same distinction? As for businesses preferring main street over a side street, disney owns both streets and will get all of the business. Also this street will have traffic, it isn't leading to nowhere.

b) Traffic flow issues. Are you going to want half of your park guests to funnel into Tomorrowland at rope drop (and throughout the day)? What does that do to foot traffic, rider volume, traffic flow, street wear in that section of the park? Is Tomorrowland equiped to handle 50% of the park's initial volume? I think most reasonable thinkers already know the answer to this. Lets look at the inverse. The current evening bottleneck is the hub....While I agree the hub isn't doing the job it needs to, by cutting this path, you may lessen the bottleneck at the hub, only to increase it in front of Tony's. That location is not at all setup to shoulder a bottleneck. It just doesn't work. These are unintended consequences of this cutoff.....just because the hub gets blocked up @ park closing?! I'd rather have the bottleneck at the hub than watch the rest of the park's flow get bollocksed up.

Why do you think that half of the foot traffic that enters the park will take this path? TL isn't half the draw for the park, nor would it be the path to get to FF/FLE. As for a bottleneck being caused, the square is large enough to handle the traffic that will come from TL. The bottlenecks are caused at the hub because most of the park is being funneled to that spot and then it is directed through the narrow passage of Main Street.

c) Servicing - You effectively cut off the east-side main st stores. AFAIK, there is vehicle-based servicing to those locations. Will the Utilidors be able to handle the load, if you cut off what used to be vehicle servicing to those stores? If so, will the utilidors also be able to handle servicing to the proposed retail along the cutoff path? You're cutting off the servicing access and increasing the need. Doesn't sound well thought out to me.

What? Those shops aren't getting supplies during the day, they stock up at night. The deliveries to the hotel gift shops aren't waiting for guests when they get back an hour later, what vehicle access to the shops desperately need?

d) Imagineering/Flow - Lets get back to the Hub for a second. It's there for a purpose. Walt's original plan was to funnel people down main st to a visually spectacular landmark. The tone for the entire park is set as you walk down Main St. It may be a light & fluffy, pixie-dustish factor to some, but it's an X-factor that is equally important in the way the park flows and operates. From there, guests walked out radially. The cutoff defeats that whole thing. The setting of the tone down main st, the walking from the center into specificly themed lands. The repeat guest may not care about this, but to the initial visitor, setting such a tone is imperative...and is just as important as good customer service, in ensuring return park guests.

The castle draws in guests, first time guests will walk towards it. Also, if imagineers wanted to maintain the hub and spoke, explain Tokyo Disneyland.

Problem solving like this requires someone to lay out objectives first. What's the objective here? Increase egress flow from the park after wishes? Then address the problem. Bypassing it only creates a problem elsewhere, as I already established.

Perhaps a significant widening of paths at the hub is necessary. Perhaps removing or reducing the size of items at the center of the hub is necessary. Perhaps modification of main street to widen the path is necessary. Perhaps rebuilding the fronts of Main Streets stores to allow for a few more feet on each side is necessary.

I'm quite certain that the cost benefit of some architectural modifications to the existing main st/hub area would be a much better option than cutting through to TL....and it would preserve some of the issues I raised above.


Just my $0.02....

The problem won't be solved by widening or making the hub larger because guests will still funnel down main street.

You want to reconstruct main street to decrease the square footage of the shops?
 

PirateFrank

Well-Known Member
The addition of the store(s) pays back the cost of adding the path and the relocation costs for the existing infrastructure. If this location is considered secondary, wouldn't every store location not on main street also have the same distinction? As for businesses preferring main street over a side street, disney owns both streets and will get all of the business. Also this street will have traffic, it isn't leading to nowhere.

You're missing the point. You don't put secondary shops on the last path out of the place. Sure there's retail locations elsewhere....but the ones on main street are most important to the cash count every night. As far as the whole ownership thing goes, you're missing the main point to argue over one that doesn't exist.

The fact of the matter is that your last chance at your guests wallets better be the best chance. You're going to do that with a side-street and 'secondary retail' in your #1 theme park in wdw? It doesn't make sense.


Why do you think that half of the foot traffic that enters the park will take this path? TL isn't half the draw for the park, nor would it be the path to get to FF/FLE. As for a bottleneck being caused, the square is large enough to handle the traffic that will come from TL. The bottlenecks are caused at the hub because most of the park is being funneled to that spot and then it is directed through the narrow passage of Main Street.

My point was piggybacking on the fact that it doesn't make sense to cut this path unless you make the diversion a significant one with significant retail spots along the way. ONCE you make it a significant path, you are by force of nature, encouraging a significant portion of park guests down the diversion.

You're clearly not thinking about the unintended consequences of diverting significant guest traffic into and out of Tomorrowland. You're still going to have a bottleneck at the hub, but you're going to add a worse at the square. If you think the square can handle it, when it clearly can not, we've no point in discussing this further.

What? Those shops aren't getting supplies during the day, they stock up at night. The deliveries to the hotel gift shops aren't waiting for guests when they get back an hour later, what vehicle access to the shops desperately need?

Listen, my statement is based on the concept that the stores there need some vehicular access....or else there would not be roads into those buildings to begin with. Are there deliveries, pickups, employee access to those areas during the day? I don't know, as I don't work in them (do you?) but based on the layout it appears extremely logical that there are. My point, is that if access is needed there, you're removing it while increasing the load. Again, not smart. Can it be a non-issue? sure! you're still not talking yourself out of the other points I've highlighted....

The castle draws in guests, first time guests will walk towards it. Also, if imagineers wanted to maintain the hub and spoke, explain Tokyo Disneyland.

If Imagineers didn't want to maintain hub and spoke, explain why they built access roads to the backends of each side of main st?

Sorry, I know nothing about TDL, but I can tell you this. They are two different parks, in two different countries, with different cultures and needs. If the imagineers felt they could design TDL a certain way, that's great. WDW's MK was designed a certain way. This plan violates it.

The problem won't be solved by widening or making the hub larger because guests will still funnel down main street.

Are you a logistics expert? Because the idea of replacing one bottleneck with a worse one suggests that you are not.

You want to reconstruct main street to decrease the square footage of the shops?

Exactly when did I say that I want to decrease the square footage of the shops?
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
You're missing the point. You don't put secondary shops on the last path out of the place. Sure there's retail locations elsewhere....but the ones on main street are most important to the cash count every night. As far as the whole ownership thing goes, you're missing the main point to argue over one that doesn't exist.

The fact of the matter is that your last chance at your guests wallets better be the best chance. You're going to do that with a side-street and 'secondary retail' in your #1 theme park in wdw? It doesn't make sense.




My point was piggybacking on the fact that it doesn't make sense to cut this path unless you make the diversion a significant one with significant retail spots along the way. ONCE you make it a significant path, you are by force of nature, encouraging a significant portion of park guests down the diversion.

You're clearly not thinking about the unintended consequences of diverting significant guest traffic into and out of Tomorrowland. You're still going to have a bottleneck at the hub, but you're going to add a worse at the square. If you think the square can handle it, when it clearly can not, we've no point in discussing this further.



Listen, my statement is based on the concept that the stores there need some vehicular access....or else there would not be roads into those buildings to begin with. Are there deliveries, pickups, employee access to those areas during the day? I don't know, as I don't work in them (do you?) but based on the layout it appears extremely logical that there are. My point, is that if access is needed there, you're removing it while increasing the load. Again, not smart. Can it be a non-issue? sure! you're still not talking yourself out of the other points I've highlighted....



If Imagineers didn't want to maintain hub and spoke, explain why they built access roads to the backends of each side of main st?

Sorry, I know nothing about TDL, but I can tell you this. They are two different parks, in two different countries, with different cultures and needs. If the imagineers felt they could design TDL a certain way, that's great. WDW's MK was designed a certain way. This plan violates it.



Are you a logistics expert? Because the idea of replacing one bottleneck with a worse one suggests that you are not.



Exactly when did I say that I want to decrease the square footage of the shops?

People are going to buy if they want to buy, being funneled down main street isn't going to magically make people spend more money while they are being pushed out the door. Do you buy more souvenirs at the ball park when everyone is leaving and you are being pushed out of the door into the street? Or are you going to spend money when you have room to walk around? The ownership point strikes your point about the side street, disney makes money where ever the shops are.

Guests visit WDW for the parks and attractions, not the gift shops. Guests will travel the path to the rides they want to visit not where they can get their $25 2011 shirt.

The stores need vehicle access when the parks are closed, the concept I designed is not walling off this new street.

How does the layout of the pathways guests are traveling and the backstage access in anyway related? Also, the hub and spoke design is flow it is not a culture thing.

How is this a worse bottleneck? The square is double the size of main street, this plan would take people off main street and more efficiently and safely have them exit from the park.

How can you modify the street and rebuild the fronts to get more space on main street and not eat into the shop square footage? The facades before and after are going to be the same size, there is not going to be 5 or 10 feet gained without cutting into the shops.
 

wizards8507

Active Member
That is what everyone wants. But, I think we lost hope long ago. RIP Beastly Kingdom

Have faith, my friend. I can't imagine Disney would let Animal Kingdom be a 6:00 PM park for too much longer. If they could stretch park hours to 9:00 during peak season (with enough non-live animal attractions), then they'd be able to introduce a nighttime show/event, which would potentially have a huge impact on merch sales and create new demand for table-service dining if people were now staying for dinner.
 

RandySavage

Well-Known Member
A few things.

First, it was Staggs who put the kibosh on removing the hall of fame tent...


Just my $0.02....

I won't consider entering a jam-packed Main St. store at park closing. I would certainly consider exiting through a less crowded area and going into the shops (like International Gateway at EPCOT). At Anaheim Disneyland, on crowded nights, they herd guests out through backstage areas to alleviate the overcrowding on Main St. As CEO, would you rather have this or have some traffic diverted down a side street with secondary retail.

You brought up some good points on reasons not to do something as suggested at MK, but there are reasons to support it as well (and plenty of the obstacles you brought up are solvable). Enough that such a proposal ought not to be scoffed, called "terrible!" and laughed out of the room. Why not be courteous and make a civil argument, instead of coming off like a demeaning, know-it-all.

Here is how the supremely successful Tokyo park is laid out:

tokyoDisneylandMap.jpg
 

twinnstar

Active Member
i for one do not want a Marvel Park, although i completely understand those that do. for me, i live right near a six flags, and i cant imagine a marvel park being much different. it would probably be all thrill rides, and i dont think disney and thrill rides go together. disney is supposed to be for family.

i do however like the idea of a toontown or a classic character park, that would be SO fun, and a great way to keep the characters relevant! I always thought MK's Toontown fair was cute, but DL's version blows it to kingdom come. If they made a larger version of DL's with more rides, family friendly ones - not just for kids - that would be awesome.

I also like the idea of a Villians park, of course! that would have so much potential for great attractions and atmosphere!

...but of course, i agree with everyone. disney really needs to first fix up what they have until they build anything new. epcot needs everything sans world showcase fixed up, MK needs to get the expansion completed, animal kingdom needs some more interesting things to do, and hollywood studios needs like a complete and utter overhaul (ugh that place makes me upset ha)...then and only then should they even think of a 5th gate! so i agree with everyone, if they ever do it...i dont think we'd see anything for at least 20/25 years.
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
I don't know, as I don't work in them (do you?) but based on the layout it appears extremely logical that there are. My point, is that if access is needed there, you're removing it while increasing the load.

I have worked back there day and night, and during the day, the only real things that go through there are the buses who pick up some CM's, which could easily be re-routed. Besides that, most things still come through the utilidors behind the park, because that's the only place where large semis can drop off supplies. There's a pretty low ceiling underneath the traintracks going into Main St. as well, which prevents large trucks from going through there constantly.

The other issues would be resolved if they could build out parking back toward the back of Space Mountain a bit more, if possible (there's a small pond there currently).

I think the TDL layout shows the advantages of this type of layout.
 

JWG

Well-Known Member
In one word, "No."
Current parks are not "full day" parks - DHS and more importantly AK need to be built out.

DHS needs to get MI Coaster and something else to round out Pixar Place. The Animation building needs to be destroyed and turned into something legitimate now that animation is gone. The Backlot Tour needs to be destroyed and turned into something new, etc.

They can expand capacity at those parks easily, Epcot offers an available Future World pavilion and expansion pads in World Showcase. So much love needed at the existing parks.

That, and most people don't vacation more than 7-10 days. With four major theme parks, 2 water parks and other options - a week already isn't enough time.
 

WDW FTW

Member
Magic Kingdom does have its border by the railroad line (im sure eventually they could pass this if they wanted too). Other than that MGM (yea i said it) is condensed but has room to spread, or replace, AK can definately use more attractions since its only a full day park if you look at every single animal in the place, epcot always has room to expand because of all the open pavilion space. Overall in WDW space isnt an issue they just need to use up what they have already before they will take demands for park #5 seriously
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
Magic Kingdom does have its border by the railroad line (im sure eventually they could pass this if they wanted too). Other than that MGM (yea i said it) is condensed but has room to spread, or replace, AK can definately use more attractions since its only a full day park if you look at every single animal in the place, epcot always has room to expand because of all the open pavilion space. Overall in WDW space isnt an issue they just need to use up what they have already before they will take demands for park #5 seriously

MK already passed the railroad line, look at Space Mountain ;)
 

WDW FTW

Member
MK already passed the railroad line, look at Space Mountain ;)

Those sneaky imagineers i never noticed, because you dont expect to see the train in tomorrowland plus ive never ridden it from what was toontown to the main entrance. just used it as a shortcut from frontierland to get to tomorrowland :p:p:p
 

H2Opolo15

Member
Original Poster
Ok, I'm glad that this thread has sparked good conversation but can we get a little more back on track than how additional shops would do at the exit/entrance of MK?

Also, I understand now there is much more to be done before a 5th gate is yet to be considered. Personally I don't like the idea of a Marvel theme park because i see it becoming more of an amusement park and not a theme park (if that makes any sense). I definitely like the idea of a "cartoon characters" park but that seems to already have the ability to be covered at every park. I'm not an imagineer tho so I really don't know what would be considered a "good idea" for a new park. I don't think that will be necessary to think of for a long time.

Personally, I completely agree that expansion of AK and DHS is needed. Give people a reason to come back to the parks and stay for days. And for god sakes fix the Yeti already!!
 

WDW FTW

Member
Ok, I'm glad that this thread has sparked good conversation but can we get a little more back on track than how additional shops would do at the exit/entrance of MK?

Also, I understand now there is much more to be done before a 5th gate is yet to be considered. Personally I don't like the idea of a Marvel theme park because i see it becoming more of an amusement park and not a theme park (if that makes any sense). I definitely like the idea of a "cartoon characters" park but that seems to already have the ability to be covered at every park. I'm not an imagineer tho so I really don't know what would be considered a "good idea" for a new park. I don't think that will be necessary to think of for a long time.

Personally, I completely agree that expansion of AK and DHS is needed. Give people a reason to come back to the parks and stay for days. And for god sakes fix the Yeti already!!


Soooooo back on topic--- it would cost more to prepare the land for construction on a new park than it would to build new attractions in AK and MGM and Epcot. So im gonna answer yes there will eventually be a 5th park. But probably not in my lifetime [edit] actually ive probably got a lot of time left, so instead ill just say not in the next few decades there wont be a 5th park
 

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