Wilderness Lodge DVC additions - Copper Creek Villas & Cabins

[note2001]

I think they did some land swaps for those. Meaning they created an acre of wetlands for an acre they disturbed.

How do they do that? Native wetlands have an ecosystem on both large and small scales that a created area would not have. Is it like swapping pots out: transplanting an area over to a new area?

 

[note2001]

I have Cinderella's self cauterizer and a Goofy's stiptic pencil just in case.

Baymax is on standby if WDW1974 or any other person takes it to the next level and has a heart attack... only catch is he has to say "Ouch" to activate him.

 

[ford91exploder]

to you.

In 2006 using Disney financing you could 'break even' on a 160 point contract in about 5-7 years, in 2015 breakeven is 16-18 years with the same contract size and Disney financing, Hence my comment on 'not a good value' any longer.

 

[Club Cooloholic]

Man this depresses me. I feel like Disney is so focused on DVC...they just neglect everything else. Also what will a regular room cost in 15 yrs or so when inflation has made some of these dvcs such a bargin of sorts that rack rates have to cover expenses and upkeep...or will the rooms in dvc not get refreshed as much?
Makes me want to change my split stay to UNI...

 

[PhotoDave219]

How do they do that? Native wetlands have an ecosystem on both large and small scales that a created area would not have. Is it like swapping pots out: transplanting an area over to a new area?

It's a legal thing.... People more well versed in environmental law would be able to explain it better.

 

[GoofGoof]

Man this depresses me. I feel like Disney is so focused on DVC...they just neglect everything else. Also what will a regular room cost in 15 yrs or so when inflation has made some of these dvcs such a bargin of sorts that rack rates have to cover expenses and upkeep...or will the rooms in dvc not get refreshed as much?
Makes me want to change my split stay to UNI...

DVC has Maintenance fees which cover the costs associated with running the resorts. The cash rooms will not be needed to cover expenses or upkeep for DVC rooms. If anything it might work the other way around. Some here suspect a disproportionate amount of common expenses could be pushed over to the DVC side to make cash rooms even more profitable.

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

Some ideas to ponder as Robert A. Iger. Tom Staggs and George Kalogridis (no, he's not deserving to be placed with the other two as he's retail all the way, but thought I'd give him a shoutout!) continue to take massive hits off the crystal meth ... I mean timeshare pipe. Disney is like an addict in that meth house ...they can't stop the quick hit profits of timeshares, regardless of the long term negative effect to WDW.

Perspective:

In 1990, WDW was heading toward its crest/zenith in both quality and value and resort offerings. It had NO presence of timeshare on property at all. WDW existed for two decades and had opened three theme parks, two water parks and DD (then the LBV Shopping Village) all with NO timeshare at all.

In 1995, WDW had reached its high point and was starting to become bloated and overbuilt. But it still didn't have ONE Deluxe Resort with a timeshare component. None.

In 2000, WDW was starting a massive crash in quality (albeit still slow to see in many ways). It had a timeshare presence at exactly ONE Deluxe Resort. That was the BW, which was constructed specifically to have both hotel rooms and villas from the start. VWL would open very late in the year.

In 2005, WDW was already in massive decline --although still had some major new large-scale attractions either opened or about to (Soarin, Mission Space, EE) as Michael Eisner ended his run as CEO. By that point, Disney had THREE Deluxe resorts with timeshare, but one (BW) was designed that way. WL and BC added DVC between 2000-2005. WLV were carefully designed and beyond putting a strain on transportation and the QSR, fit in beautifully. The BCV were placed on a piece of land never intended for development, looked out of place and immediately lowered the standards of the 4-star BC. DVC also had stand alone resorts in the original -- OKW -- and the newly built SS, which replaced the Disney Institute, which had replaced a group of villas (some dating back to 1975) and vacation homes known at the LBV Resort.

Anyone see where this is going?

In between 2005-2010, WDW began DVC'ing the entire property. First, finishing SS. Then, destroying Contemporary North to replace it with the poorly built and designed BLT to have timeshares within walking distance of the MK. Disney also added Kidani Village to DAK Lodge, but also took away hundreds of deluxe rooms at the Lodge and turned them into timeshare. Oh, and they added more to SS, by taking back the old Treehouse Villas (that had been used as housing for IPers) and rebuilding them.

It was also during this era, early in Bob Iger's tenure, that plans were made to add DVC to every Deluxe Resort on the monorail.

Hence, between 2010-2015, the two pricest (supposedly most upscale) WDW resorts in the Grand Flo and Poly both had DVC added. At the latter, rooms were removed and beach views disappeared.

During this period, plans were looked at and debated to add literally thousands of more DVC units across property. From existing Deluxe Resort inventory to replacing moderate resort rooms to adding them to 'unconventional' locations like the EPCOT parking lot and the old River Country site.

There is not a Deluxe Resort at WDW ( here comes the YC 'excuse' even though it is largely operated as one resort with the BC) in 2015 that doesn't have timeshare. Whether you think this is a good thing or not really doesn't matter much (although it isn't).

This quick hit profit model has allowed WDW to keep its parks stale and stagnant and has helped keep profits churning (@ParentsOf4 has written way too much on the subject).

While we don't know what Walt had in mind for the Florida Project, it's safe to say when he said ''We have enough land here for all the ideas we can possibly imagine'' that he didn't plan on Disney being The Timeshare Kingdom of the World.

That's what it is. And it's only going to get worse. Much, much worse.

So is the option for DVC at moderates still on the table?
Because after this expansion of WLV DVC, I cant think of any where else for them to go with DVC besides building another resort entirely or they decide to build bungalows/cabins at... AKL?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I think they did some land swaps for those. Meaning they created an acre of wetlands for an acre they disturbed.

If you mean Mira Lago, I think that's for DHS.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

How do they do that? Native wetlands have an ecosystem on both large and small scales that a created area would not have. Is it like swapping pots out: transplanting an area over to a new area?

No, the land they bought was also native wetlands but slated for development. They "save" those wetlands and call them conservation space, then they get credits they can use to develop their existing conservation space. Google "Mira Lago Disney."

 

[PhotoDave219]

If you mean Mira Lago, I think that's for DHS.

I meant in general. When GF DVC was built, an equal amount of wetlands that were used were created over by WL.

 

[Next Big Thing]

As you alluded to in your earlier post, the sale of DVC units are extremely profitable, which why they do move on their construction relatively quickly.

As Bob Iger said all the way back in 2006:

The other thing that I want to note is that we have seen incredible growth in our Vacation Club business. This is a business where we have roughly 2,000 units open at this point, and I would imagine we'll end up building substantially more in the years ahead. Our CAGR [compound annual growth rate] on this business has been roughly 20%, and we have really high returns on invested capital. It's a great way to strengthen our relationship with core consumers, and I think it's going to provide us with some pretty interesting growth in the years to come.​

This was at a time when people were purchasing Saratoga Springs Resort (SSR) for $68/point and Beach Club Villas (BCV) for $75/night. (Disney used to regularly offer discounts on DVC purchases back then.)

Less than 10 years later, the Polynesian Villas and Bungalows (PVB) and Villas at the Grand Floridian (VGF) are selling for $165/point.

2006 was actually the year we bought DVC at SSR. Glad we bought in then looking at how prices have shot up since.

 

[DGracey]

Plans for the rehab were finally filed with the SFWMD yesterday. Since these documents are considered public record, I hope there's no issue with posting images from them here.

Here's the project description from the Geotech. report:


(Page 100 of this document)

Illustrated plan of the proposed changes:

(Page 115 of this document)

Sheet from the civil plans for the rehab:

(Page 14 of this document)

Looks like they'll be adding a total of 26 "lodging buildings" facing Bay Lake, as expected. However, unlike the Poly bungalows, these won't be built over the water, and it looks like only about half of them will have any decent view of the MK fireworks. It also appears they'll be upgrading/expanding the pool adjacent to the Villas building, and adding the new recreation buildings mentioned in the project description to that area, as well as what I assume to be a new restaurant building near the boat dock.

Still processing that line "View to Fireworks" (with an arrow) for twelve of the one story lodges in front of Bay Lake on that document. Man those DVCers sure love fireworks!

If all the trees in Walt Disney World fell so more rooms could see the fireworks for an upcharge would anyone notice ...

 

[xdan0920]

Still processing that line "View to Fireworks" (with an arrow) for twelve of the one story lodges in front of Bay Lake on that document. Man those DVCers sure love fireworks!

If all the trees in Walt Disney World fell so more rooms could see the fireworks for an upcharge would anyone notice ...

Judging by this thread, yes. People would notice.

 

[George]

Still processing that line "View to Fireworks" (with an arrow) for twelve of the one story lodges in front of Bay Lake on that document. Man those DVCers sure love fireworks!

If all the trees in Walt Disney World fell so more rooms could see the fireworks for an upcharge would anyone notice ...

Have you looked in the MSUSA hub thread? Essays have been written about trees. Since the Wilderness Lodge is modeled after the national park lodges which feature trees and folk like me who own points at VWL like the feel of the place, yeah, it would be noticed.

 

[note2001]

Have you looked in the MSUSA hub thread? Essays have been written about trees. Since the Wilderness Lodge is modeled after the national park lodges which feature trees and folk like me who own points at VWL like the feel of the place, yeah, it would be noticed.

Disney went to great pains to have the WL contain elements of the national parks - everyone knows about the stones in the fireplace in the main lodge, but how many folk know that dispersed around the grounds are adult sized, large living TREES they imported that do not naturally grow in Florida? Wish I could name them or point them out ... it's been awhile.

 

[216bruce]

Still processing that line "View to Fireworks" (with an arrow) for twelve of the one story lodges in front of Bay Lake on that document. Man those DVCers sure love fireworks!

If all the trees in Walt Disney World fell so more rooms could see the fireworks for an upcharge would anyone notice ...

I'm a DVC 'r and a VWL owner. Couldn't care less about the fireworks view from the room. If I want to see them, I'll go to the park. The trees, yeah, I'll sure miss the secluded view and feel that the Villas had. No way do the bungalows get 'airlifted/craned' in. I wish I could say differently. There appears to still be a small barrier between the Villa building and the bungalows, but it'll be pretty thin- if it remains at all. I have no doubt that the additions won't be hideous after they are landscaped but they will provide a substantially different view from that side of the building. We don't spend a lot of time in the room apart from while getting ready in the morning so the practical impact of the treeless view won't mean much. The pool expansion and amenities is a nice add-on. I welcome that. Until I see some artwork of how this will actually work and look, I'll reserve final judgement; but this is a little bit scary.

 

[gmajew]

I am really hoping that this incredible hotel complex keeps is gorgeous grounds. It is unimportant part of what makes this resort so cool. The plans as others have stated show for the removal of the trees but it also does not go into detail on the landscaping to be completed after....

So I hold my breathe hoping to not be disappointed but....

 

[danlb_2000]

No, the land they bought was also native wetlands but slated for development. They "save" those wetlands and call them conservation space, then they get credits they can use to develop their existing conservation space. Google "Mira Lago Disney."

They have also done this thought the Florida Mitigation Bank. The land for Flamingo Crossing was handled this way.

If you mean Mira Lago, I think that's for DHS.

Very likely, but it could also be used for offsets in other areas. Still waiting for Mira Lago to become a done deal.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Some ideas to ponder as Robert A. Iger. Tom Staggs and George Kalogridis (no, he's not deserving to be placed with the other two as he's retail all the way, but thought I'd give him a shoutout!) continue to take massive hits off the crystal meth ... I mean timeshare pipe. Disney is like an addict in that meth house ...they can't stop the quick hit profits of timeshares, regardless of the long term negative effect to WDW.

Perspective:

In 1990, WDW was heading toward its crest/zenith in both quality and value and resort offerings. It had NO presence of timeshare on property at all. WDW existed for two decades and had opened three theme parks, two water parks and DD (then the LBV Shopping Village) all with NO timeshare at all.

In 1995, WDW had reached its high point and was starting to become bloated and overbuilt. But it still didn't have ONE Deluxe Resort with a timeshare component. None.

In 2000, WDW was starting a massive crash in quality (albeit still slow to see in many ways). It had a timeshare presence at exactly ONE Deluxe Resort. That was the BW, which was constructed specifically to have both hotel rooms and villas from the start. VWL would open very late in the year.

In 2005, WDW was already in massive decline --although still had some major new large-scale attractions either opened or about to (Soarin, Mission Space, EE) as Michael Eisner ended his run as CEO. By that point, Disney had THREE Deluxe resorts with timeshare, but one (BW) was designed that way. WL and BC added DVC between 2000-2005. WLV were carefully designed and beyond putting a strain on transportation and the QSR, fit in beautifully. The BCV were placed on a piece of land never intended for development, looked out of place and immediately lowered the standards of the 4-star BC. DVC also had stand alone resorts in the original -- OKW -- and the newly built SS, which replaced the Disney Institute, which had replaced a group of villas (some dating back to 1975) and vacation homes known at the LBV Resort.

Anyone see where this is going?

In between 2005-2010, WDW began DVC'ing the entire property. First, finishing SS. Then, destroying Contemporary North to replace it with the poorly built and designed BLT to have timeshares within walking distance of the MK. Disney also added Kidani Village to DAK Lodge, but also took away hundreds of deluxe rooms at the Lodge and turned them into timeshare. Oh, and they added more to SS, by taking back the old Treehouse Villas (that had been used as housing for IPers) and rebuilding them.

It was also during this era, early in Bob Iger's tenure, that plans were made to add DVC to every Deluxe Resort on the monorail.

Hence, between 2010-2015, the two pricest (supposedly most upscale) WDW resorts in the Grand Flo and Poly both had DVC added. At the latter, rooms were removed and beach views disappeared.

During this period, plans were looked at and debated to add literally thousands of more DVC units across property. From existing Deluxe Resort inventory to replacing moderate resort rooms to adding them to 'unconventional' locations like the EPCOT parking lot and the old River Country site.

There is not a Deluxe Resort at WDW ( here comes the YC 'excuse' even though it is largely operated as one resort with the BC) in 2015 that doesn't have timeshare. Whether you think this is a good thing or not really doesn't matter much (although it isn't).

This quick hit profit model has allowed WDW to keep its parks stale and stagnant and has helped keep profits churning (@ParentsOf4 has written way too much on the subject).

While we don't know what Walt had in mind for the Florida Project, it's safe to say when he said ''We have enough land here for all the ideas we can possibly imagine'' that he didn't plan on Disney being The Timeshare Kingdom of the World.

That's what it is. And it's only going to get worse. Much, much worse.

By the numbers ...

Prior to the opening of the original DVC resort (now called Old Key West) in 1991, Disney owned and operated WDW 7403 hotel rooms. Old Key West added another 761 separately bookable rooms, or about 8.8% of total inventory.

That 8.8% remained the peak level of WDW timeshares through the opening of Pop Century in 2003, when DVC accounted for 7.1% of WDW's separately bookable rooms.

Things rapidly changed after the conversation of the Disney Institute to Saratoga Springs Resort beginning in 2004. With the latest conversion at the Polynesian, DVC now constitutes 15.1% of WDW's separately bookable rooms.

The number of DVC points sold at WDW Resorts has been trending downward for several years, with fiscal year 2015's sales roughly on target to match fiscal year 2014.

With WDW experiencing record theme park attendance in recent years (the #1 source for perspective DVC buyers) presumably this trend is the result of higher prices and market saturation.

Given the pricing structure of the most recent DVC additions (VGF and PVB), Disney appears to be cognizant of the growing wealth gap in America and is targeting the high-end of the market for the foreseeable future, at least higher than it once did. These cabins almost certainly will require a large number of DVC points to book, putting them out of reach for most potential timeshare buyers and continuing that trend.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

These cabins almost certainly will require a large number of DVC points to book, putting them out of reach for most potential timeshare buyers and continuing that trend.

I disagree. The Polynesian and the Grand Floridan are priced at the high end of Disney's deluxe resorts, so it makes sense that their associated DVC properties are priced at the high end of the points scale. Conversely, Wilderness Lodge is the cheapest deluxe resort and I expect these cabins will be priced accordingly. They might end up on the high end strictly as a function of size (like the tree houses), but I don't foresee the GFV / BBB price point.