Wilderness Lodge DVC additions - Copper Creek Villas & Cabins

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
if it is wetlands, could they build them above ground like at the poly? then it wouldn't actually affect the land as much

its so crazy how much of disney property is restricted from use. Im sure they could work out the red tape of developing the plots they want to if they really wanted to.

isn't wetlands part of the reason disney has a whole nature preserve?

One of the reasons Old Dead Guy Walt bought over 28,000 acres of land was to keep a very large chunk in its natural state. That absolutely hasn't happened as WDW has not only brought sprawl outside its gates, but has developed it within them.

Instead of slaughtering more trees and the animals/wild life that depend on them to survive and paving over more wetlands and forests, Disney would be better served to fix its neglected infrastructure and stale theme parks.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Some ideas to ponder as Robert A. Iger. Tom Staggs and George Kalogridis (no, he's not deserving to be placed with the other two as he's retail all the way, but thought I'd give him a shoutout!) continue to take massive hits off the crystal meth ... I mean timeshare pipe. Disney is like an addict in that meth house ...they can't stop the quick hit profits of timeshares, regardless of the long term negative effect to WDW.

Perspective:

In 1990, WDW was heading toward its crest/zenith in both quality and value and resort offerings. It had NO presence of timeshare on property at all. WDW existed for two decades and had opened three theme parks, two water parks and DD (then the LBV Shopping Village) all with NO timeshare at all.

In 1995, WDW had reached its high point and was starting to become bloated and overbuilt. But it still didn't have ONE Deluxe Resort with a timeshare component. None.

In 2000, WDW was starting a massive crash in quality (albeit still slow to see in many ways). It had a timeshare presence at exactly ONE Deluxe Resort. That was the BW, which was constructed specifically to have both hotel rooms and villas from the start. VWL would open very late in the year.

In 2005, WDW was already in massive decline --although still had some major new large-scale attractions either opened or about to (Soarin, Mission Space, EE) as Michael Eisner ended his run as CEO. By that point, Disney had THREE Deluxe resorts with timeshare, but one (BW) was designed that way. WL and BC added DVC between 2000-2005. WLV were carefully designed and beyond putting a strain on transportation and the QSR, fit in beautifully. The BCV were placed on a piece of land never intended for development, looked out of place and immediately lowered the standards of the 4-star BC. DVC also had stand alone resorts in the original -- OKW -- and the newly built SS, which replaced the Disney Institute, which had replaced a group of villas (some dating back to 1975) and vacation homes known at the LBV Resort.

Anyone see where this is going?

In between 2005-2010, WDW began DVC'ing the entire property. First, finishing SS. Then, destroying Contemporary North to replace it with the poorly built and designed BLT to have timeshares within walking distance of the MK. Disney also added Kidani Village to DAK Lodge, but also took away hundreds of deluxe rooms at the Lodge and turned them into timeshare. Oh, and they added more to SS, by taking back the old Treehouse Villas (that had been used as housing for IPers) and rebuilding them.

It was also during this era, early in Bob Iger's tenure, that plans were made to add DVC to every Deluxe Resort on the monorail.

Hence, between 2010-2015, the two pricest (supposedly most upscale) WDW resorts in the Grand Flo and Poly both had DVC added. At the latter, rooms were removed and beach views disappeared.

During this period, plans were looked at and debated to add literally thousands of more DVC units across property. From existing Deluxe Resort inventory to replacing moderate resort rooms to adding them to 'unconventional' locations like the EPCOT parking lot and the old River Country site.

There is not a Deluxe Resort at WDW ( here comes the YC 'excuse' even though it is largely operated as one resort with the BC) in 2015 that doesn't have timeshare. Whether you think this is a good thing or not really doesn't matter much (although it isn't).

This quick hit profit model has allowed WDW to keep its parks stale and stagnant and has helped keep profits churning (@ParentsOf4 has written way too much on the subject).

While we don't know what Walt had in mind for the Florida Project, it's safe to say when he said ''We have enough land here for all the ideas we can possibly imagine'' that he didn't plan on Disney being The Timeshare Kingdom of the World.

That's what it is. And it's only going to get worse. Much, much worse.
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Original Poster
if it is wetlands, could they build them above ground like at the poly? then it wouldn't actually affect the land as much

its so crazy how much of disney property is restricted from use. Im sure they could work out the red tape of developing the plots they want to if they really wanted to.

isn't wetlands part of the reason disney has a whole nature preserve?

They really aren't totally restricted from using it. The have a certain amount of wetland impacts that they planned for on the property and some of this allotment is still available. They also submitted a permit last year that is still waiting approval that would allow them to impact even more wetlands, which will be offset by conservation land in other areas. If I am reading the permit right this project will impact approximately 4 acres of wetlands.

Beyond the regulatory issues though, there are the practical matters of building on wetlands. As we all know Florida gets a lot of rain, and every-time you create a new surface that doesn't absorb water (roof, road, etc) that water has to go somewhere.
 

xdan0920

Think for yourselfer
One of the reasons Old Dead Guy Walt bought over 28,000 acres of land was to keep a very large chunk in its natural state.

I agree with this bit. I have two related questions though.

What % was originally planned to be developed?

What % is currently developed?
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Exactly. And quite frankly we have no clue which direction they are going. Getting all twisted up about Disney's deforestation efforts, which may not even happen, is silliness at his highest level.

Yes, You're right. Because WDW has given so many reasons to deserve a 'wait and see' 'tude, right?
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
So does this mean the conversion of Lodge rooms is now off the table, or is this in addition to the conversion?

IIRC, this thread started with discussion of conversion, not building new.

No, it's part of this project. Hundreds of rooms will be converted, so Disney can keep raising the prices of the remaining rooms annually.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
I agree with this bit. I have two related questions though.

What % was originally planned to be developed?

What % is currently developed?

I don't have exact numbers in front. But I was always quoted that HALF the land Disney bought was never to be developed. Clearly, with all the resorts and timeshares as well as selling of land for Celebration, Golden Oak and land behind the MK, that isn't the case today.

I have no idea what % is currently developed other than ''too much'' ... and much of what is left is either unsuitable for building on or wetlands that can't be. That's why I always get a kick out of fanbois saying Disney could built another three major theme parks if they wished. They can't. They'd struggle with room and infrastructure for one.

Since 1994 and the start of building of Celebration, Disney has essentially been looking to 'build out' the Florida property as quickly as possible (as opposed to building attractions in theme parks).
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Yep, I'm a glass half full guy so I'm hoping for that too. I'm not feeling real great about it, but I'm still cautiously optimistic:)

Good for you, Goof.

I'm a glass is half empty and the wine spilled and stained my pants a...and I cut myself on the shard of glass that emptied half the glass and am bleeding and ... oh crap, I think I hit an artery and going to bleed out kind of guy.

Sadly, I'm more often than not, right.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
I don't have exact numbers in front. But I was always quoted that HALF the land Disney bought was never to be developed. Clearly, with all the resorts and timeshares as well as selling of land for Celebration, Golden Oak and land behind the MK, that isn't the case today.

I have no idea what % is currently developed other than ''too much'' ... and much of what is left is either unsuitable for building on or wetlands that can't be. That's why I always get a kick out of fanbois saying Disney could built another three major theme parks if they wished. They can't. They'd struggle with room and infrastructure for one.

Since 1994 and the start of building of Celebration, Disney has essentially been looking to 'build out' the Florida property as quickly as possible (as opposed to building attractions in theme parks).
1/3 is developed
1/3 is developable
1/3 is never-to-be developed

Those are very rough but came from a speech given by the former CFO of Domestic Parks five(ish) years ago. So really they could double their existing sprawl.
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Original Poster
I agree with this bit. I have two related questions though.

What % was originally planned to be developed?

What % is currently developed?

According to the RCID master plan here is the current land use (Land Type Acres - % of total)

Residential 14 - 0.1
Commercial 241 - 1.0
Hotel/ Resort 3,137 - 12.7
Entertainment 2,305 - 9.3
Support Facilities 618 - 2.5
Public Facilities/Roads 3,080 - 12.4
Agriculture 1,304 - 5.3
Undeveloped 1,321 - 5.3
Resource Management/Recreation 3,410 - 13.8
Conservation 7,939 - 32.1
Water 1,373 - 5.5

TOTAL 24,742 - 100.0
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Original Poster
1/3 is developed
1/3 is developable
1/3 is never-to-be developed

Those are very rough but came from a speech given by the former CFO of Domestic Parks five(ish) years ago. So really they could double their existing sprawl.

This is pretty close, right now 38% is developed and 62% isn't.

And since we were talking about wetland impacts, they were orginally permitted for 599 acres of wetlands impacts and they have currently used 248. The permit submitted last year was for an additional 350 acres of impacts on top of the 248 remaining.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
As you alluded to in your earlier post, the sale of DVC units are extremely profitable, which why they do move on their construction relatively quickly.

As Bob Iger said all the way back in 2006:

The other thing that I want to note is that we have seen incredible growth in our Vacation Club business. This is a business where we have roughly 2,000 units open at this point, and I would imagine we'll end up building substantially more in the years ahead. Our CAGR [compound annual growth rate] on this business has been roughly 20%, and we have really high returns on invested capital. It's a great way to strengthen our relationship with core consumers, and I think it's going to provide us with some pretty interesting growth in the years to come.​

This was at a time when people were purchasing Saratoga Springs Resort (SSR) for $68/point and Beach Club Villas (BCV) for $75/night. (Disney used to regularly offer discounts on DVC purchases back then.)

Less than 10 years later, the Polynesian Villas and Bungalows (PVB) and Villas at the Grand Floridian (VGF) are selling for $165/point. :greedy:

Back then DVC WAS a good value, It's no longer a good value
 

note2001

Well-Known Member
Good for you, Goof.

I'm a glass is half empty and the wine spilled and stained my pants a...and I cut myself on the shard of glass that emptied half the glass and am bleeding and ... oh crap, I think I hit an artery and going to bleed out kind of guy.

Sadly, I'm more often than not, right.

* passes the mickey mouse bandaids, and a plastic sippy cup filled with wine *
 

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