PhilharMagician
Well-Known Member
Missed it. What did she say?
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Why is privacy an issue at WDW?
- Thread starter TubaGeek
- Start date
Missed it. What did she say?
Here is a link to the video. http://skepchick.org/blog/?p=8394
PhilharMagician
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the link. :wave: Now that's a show that I make sure I never watch.
BTW you can see her this year at the CP. :dazzle:
kingslyZISSOU
New Member
It's not your print, it's the size of your finger. So if your finger covers the whole scanner, anyone else who can cover the whole scanner can use the same ticket/ pass. trust me.
elizs77
Active Member
I just don't worry about it. Like a PP said, it's not an actual fingerprint recording. It's a measurement of certain parts of the fingerprint. I'm very tight with my personal information, but they're not asking for a retnal scan or my SSN. Just a fingerprint measurement. Not too worried here. I have nothing personal floating out there with my fingerprints anyway!
As far as germs go, I am surprised that someone so germophobic as to not use a scanner just wouldn't have a meltdown inside the parks! I'm careful and clean myself, I don't like nasty stuff. But I can think of things that are even more nasty within the parks that people touch and don't think twice about it.
As far as germs go, I am surprised that someone so germophobic as to not use a scanner just wouldn't have a meltdown inside the parks! I'm careful and clean myself, I don't like nasty stuff. But I can think of things that are even more nasty within the parks that people touch and don't think twice about it.
SirNim
Well-Known Member
RFID has severely troubling implications—not in terms of Audio-Animatronic figures saying your name, or magically automatic FastPasses, or traffic flow tracking, or germs—but in terms of law enforcement and civil liberties.
Imagine some sort of crime has been committed somewhere on property by someone who is not a Resort or Park guest. Now, imagine you're a guest with your little RFID card in your wallet, and a Disney RFID scanner picks up your signal and clocks you in at, oh, say 6:24 pm. Imagine the crime occurs at 6:30 pm and is discovered at 7:00 pm, and Disney has a record of your presence at the exact location right before the crime happened. Guess whose name just shot right to the top of the list given to the police? This kind of "wrong place, wrong time" stuff happens all the time without RFID, admittedly, but with RFID, it gets a whole lot trickier. Not good.
Imagine some sort of crime has been committed somewhere on property by someone who is not a Resort or Park guest. Now, imagine you're a guest with your little RFID card in your wallet, and a Disney RFID scanner picks up your signal and clocks you in at, oh, say 6:24 pm. Imagine the crime occurs at 6:30 pm and is discovered at 7:00 pm, and Disney has a record of your presence at the exact location right before the crime happened. Guess whose name just shot right to the top of the list given to the police? This kind of "wrong place, wrong time" stuff happens all the time without RFID, admittedly, but with RFID, it gets a whole lot trickier. Not good.
Disney does this for the same reason that airlines ask for ID at check-in.
Revenue protection.
Nothing more, nothing less. Sometimes this is hidden under a pretense of security, but it is nothing more than revenue protection.
If you don't want to stick your fingers in the machine, don't. Just take your business elsewhere.
Revenue protection.
Nothing more, nothing less. Sometimes this is hidden under a pretense of security, but it is nothing more than revenue protection.
If you don't want to stick your fingers in the machine, don't. Just take your business elsewhere.
celticdog
Well-Known Member
Personally I would think those that have been fingerprinted by law enforcement would have more to be concerned about. I've never been formally fingerprinted. Only Disney and Busch Gardens have digital records of my finger. And what good it is to them? I don't care.
The day the metal detectors show up is the day I become most concerned. Because that means there is a need.
The day the metal detectors show up is the day I become most concerned. Because that means there is a need.
With Disney, the need for metal detectors would be calming down the kettles, and they would likely do nothing to increase safety, since they would likely be implemented only in guest entrances, where the public can see.
celticdog
Well-Known Member
Syntho_Magnetic
Member
And just look through the news feeds to find numerous examples of corporations and governments that have uber-failed to protect this kind of information. My own identity was almost compromised by my workplace (I was 2 months shy of the year-long duration of security failure) and my mom's was just lost this spring by the state capital city government - she has to do the whole protection package and everything.
But if the data is used for something noble, even some lapse in security is forgiveable, but in the case of:
And simply making sure you don't let someone else use your ticket, that's a dumb reason. A photo ID should be more than sufficient if they're going to get on such a high horse.
This isn't a bank account - it's a theme park.
And that's the power of PR spin - I've heard that argument elsewhere. I've taken the computer science classes in this area. You don't need to record the whole fingerprint, pixel for pixel. You measure key features that give you a good probability recognition and low probability of two fingerprints being within the same tolerance. It's like a ZIP file contains all the data in a file losslessly, but using less space. They may not measure as many data points as say the FBI, but who are we to know? And just how many points - they won't disclose it.
This is how a fingerpint scan is conducted too. A government agency like the FBI will keep the entire print plus a record of the key measurements. A search works against the key measurements, and this alone may yield a result, but it is much faster and will narrow the results considerably. If it doesn't yield an exact match, the <1% remaining potentials are measured with the full data.
Fingerprints are fairly easily forged too. Look up the Mythbusters episode on it - they pretty much used the techniques from the movies and it's scary the success rate they had at hacking it.
Fingerscans at Disney are ridiculous - we can't trust them with that data, there's no security reason for it (except a small percentage of their pocketbook), and it's simply data that a theme park doesn't need.
As for the RFID so Peter Pan can call you out by name, I'm cautiously acceptive of a theme-park only RFID for now, but I haven't had time to read and ponder. RFID's in passports and driver's licenses are a bad idea! Data can be snooped from them, and just the simple presence of the unqiue ID can be used to track you, with better technology extending the read range everyday and prospects of future satellite tracking even seriously being bantered around now. RFID's in credit cards are just asking for your money to be stolen, IMO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9isKnDiJNPk
Getting slightly away from topic, but moving from the 4th to the 1st amendment, check out carlosmiller.com or the War on Photography - NYCPhotoRights blogs. As a budding photographer, it's sad to see the unnecessary assault on 1st amendment photography.
I had one of those years ago when I was in the scouts. Is this relevant?
Syntho_Magnetic
Member
No he's a spammer, I can't find the report button. He just posted a similar advertisement in another thread + he's a new "user."
edit: (found it)
Tom
Beta Return
Let it go
Let me shed some lights on the RFID and Fingerprint logic from an engineering and business point of view:
The reason the MYW tickets are priced the way they are is based on very complicated formulas and algorithms using statistical data.
"The longer you play, the less you pay per day." This is because it's been studied and proven that Joe Guest will use less and less of his Theme Park privileges the longer he is on property. He'll hit the parks hard heavy when he arrives, go through each park, and gradually get worn out. By the last few days, Joe Guest is spending more time sleeping in, going shopping, renting boats and touring the rest of property.
Thus, Disney's cost to support Joe Guest in the Theme Parks goes down at an exponential level each day. This is reflected in the exponentially decreasing costs per day for Theme Park Tickets.
What makes all of this math and statistics and logic working to Disney's financial advantage? User Tracking. If Joe Guest uses his pass Monday-Wednesday, and then gives his pass to Mary Guest for the rest of the week, Disney has just lost money because the depreciating value of that ticket has just been recharged fully - thus throwing off the anticipated usage of the parks.
Yeah, it's complicated, but it all comes down to the fact that Disney DOES need to ensure that when YOU use your ticket, YOU are the only person to use it until it expires. ID checks won't work, because you could be holding Suzy's ticket, and it works, and the CM sees your ID and approves you....but there's nothing tying your ID to that ticket.
The only way to ensure that you are using your ticket is to "physically" tie it to you somehow. The geometric version didn't work for many reasons (mostly user error). However, it's very hard to screw up a fingerprint (for most people). You put your finger on the glass, it takes a quick scan and logs a number of key points in your pattern, and files that ID into your database entry on the computer servers - thus tied to your ticket forever.
The fingerprint that Disney takes at the turnstiles would be worth nothing to the FBI's fingerprint database. Disney's takes a quick shot of your print pattern and writes a brief ID based on key points it could locate. They don't even have to match any standards for identification - they just have to be something they can put in a database and pull up again to match. The simpler, the faster, the better.
On a personal note, I have a gun permit and am in the process of becoming a Reserve Sheriff Deputy - my fingerprints and ID are in my "permanent record". I'm not scared of Disney having them. Heck, anyone could lift one of mine easily off of a drinking glass, handrail, ride vehicle, or bus rail. Some powder and scotch tape, and your fingerprint belongs to someone else.
RFID is another story. There are lots of AMAZING things they can do with RFID, including fun and entertaining activities. We just have to trust that the creator and operator isn't using them in a Big Brother manner.
Sure, RFID could put you at the scene of a crime in a freak coincidence, but the likelihood of you actually being at the scene of a crime - very slim. The pro's to this are that they can make rides and shows more interactive, they can attach PhotoPass and perhaps FP's to your KttW. RFID has surpassed barcodes and also makes it significantly faster to process and interact with the devices.
So, if you skip everything above:
Fingerprint = Safe and Good Idea. Important for tracking users.
RFID = Some bad things can happen, but awesome tool
Most likely, Disney isn't collaborating with the Feds to track people who enjoy cartoon-themed rides.
-tom
Let me shed some lights on the RFID and Fingerprint logic from an engineering and business point of view:
The reason the MYW tickets are priced the way they are is based on very complicated formulas and algorithms using statistical data.
"The longer you play, the less you pay per day." This is because it's been studied and proven that Joe Guest will use less and less of his Theme Park privileges the longer he is on property. He'll hit the parks hard heavy when he arrives, go through each park, and gradually get worn out. By the last few days, Joe Guest is spending more time sleeping in, going shopping, renting boats and touring the rest of property.
Thus, Disney's cost to support Joe Guest in the Theme Parks goes down at an exponential level each day. This is reflected in the exponentially decreasing costs per day for Theme Park Tickets.
What makes all of this math and statistics and logic working to Disney's financial advantage? User Tracking. If Joe Guest uses his pass Monday-Wednesday, and then gives his pass to Mary Guest for the rest of the week, Disney has just lost money because the depreciating value of that ticket has just been recharged fully - thus throwing off the anticipated usage of the parks.
Yeah, it's complicated, but it all comes down to the fact that Disney DOES need to ensure that when YOU use your ticket, YOU are the only person to use it until it expires. ID checks won't work, because you could be holding Suzy's ticket, and it works, and the CM sees your ID and approves you....but there's nothing tying your ID to that ticket.
The only way to ensure that you are using your ticket is to "physically" tie it to you somehow. The geometric version didn't work for many reasons (mostly user error). However, it's very hard to screw up a fingerprint (for most people). You put your finger on the glass, it takes a quick scan and logs a number of key points in your pattern, and files that ID into your database entry on the computer servers - thus tied to your ticket forever.
The fingerprint that Disney takes at the turnstiles would be worth nothing to the FBI's fingerprint database. Disney's takes a quick shot of your print pattern and writes a brief ID based on key points it could locate. They don't even have to match any standards for identification - they just have to be something they can put in a database and pull up again to match. The simpler, the faster, the better.
On a personal note, I have a gun permit and am in the process of becoming a Reserve Sheriff Deputy - my fingerprints and ID are in my "permanent record". I'm not scared of Disney having them. Heck, anyone could lift one of mine easily off of a drinking glass, handrail, ride vehicle, or bus rail. Some powder and scotch tape, and your fingerprint belongs to someone else.
RFID is another story. There are lots of AMAZING things they can do with RFID, including fun and entertaining activities. We just have to trust that the creator and operator isn't using them in a Big Brother manner.
Sure, RFID could put you at the scene of a crime in a freak coincidence, but the likelihood of you actually being at the scene of a crime - very slim. The pro's to this are that they can make rides and shows more interactive, they can attach PhotoPass and perhaps FP's to your KttW. RFID has surpassed barcodes and also makes it significantly faster to process and interact with the devices.
So, if you skip everything above:
Fingerprint = Safe and Good Idea. Important for tracking users.
RFID = Some bad things can happen, but awesome tool
Most likely, Disney isn't collaborating with the Feds to track people who enjoy cartoon-themed rides.
-tom
Thanks. That's what I figured, but I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I believe Disney has agreed to purge the biometric data 30 days after a ticket expires.
sublimesting
Well-Known Member
I put this in the other post but I'll put it here too. You have no rights to enter WDW whatsoever. So it does not infringe on your "rights". Any entity has the right, however, to protect their proerty abd deny or permit entrance as they see fit. How is it any different than a metal detector or search of baggage? Do you also think security at the airport is an infringement on your rights?
hemloc
Member
As someone who uses IAFIS-based fingerprinting scanners on a very regular basis, it always makes me laugh when I hear people claim that their fingerprints are actually being scanned by those biometric scanners at WDW. If they were really scanning your full fingerprint, & not simply capturing very basic info, it would take hours to get through the front gates because of looooong, backed up lines. Not to mention, the scanners would require constant cleaning. I just wonder if the moonbats realize how many people are laughing at them, lol?? :wave: