Why I may not go again

[kalel8145]

Dollywood is a lot of fun. We visited Gatlinburg one year to stay up in the mountains. Drove to Dollywood one day. Not sure what has changed since 2008 but was a great time.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Europa Park, Efteling, Dollywood, and eventually Epic Universe would beg to differ.

Look at that, they all start with E.

I do.like many of those parks but to me they are one maybe two day parks. Although I've never been to efteling. We did europa and Disneyland Paris. It maybe that we did them as side trips on a vacation to other places and wdw we do as the primary destination

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

Skipping the line is great when you have little kids who can't tolerate a 45 minute wait as well as an 8 and 10 year old could. How many other places can you enjoy as a 3 year old and a 73 year old, equally? I mean really, just tell me and I will go to those places!

Skipping the line is great for EVERYONE. You think I don't want sole privileges to skip the line for every ride? That's not a possibility though. If everyone gets to skip the line, you get to a point where there's a 30-min wait to "skip the line", and a 3-hour wait on standby. That was the problem they had. They just kept expanding FP until it became meaningless, and standby queues are 3 hour waits.

 

[Andrew25]

I'd already posted on another thread about how hubby and I sold our DVC because we're not happy with the place anymore either. And it is sad because this was our happy place. But the greed knows no end now. Obviously some agree and others don't and that's fine. But I would like to just give my opinion on what I think has been the biggest problem at Disney World over the decades. It's gonna be controversial what I say but this is just my opinion but Disney World should have never had the annual passholder for Floridians. I don't know when the program started or if it was always from the beginning when the park first opened, but they should have never started this program.

My reasoning is that Disneyland was the original and was meant to be a day park, like Six Flags. Californians could go there and enjoy and yes they did build some hotels/motels nearby so that way families all over could come and obviously have a place to stay. But DL was originally meant as a day park, and there is a reason why Walt came up with the idea of DW--a vacation resort with the multiple theme parks and hotels because this was gonna be different from DL. And people running the show at the company obviously forgot about this over the decades and the people too.

What everybody has been seeing for the past two decades now is the Floridan who lives nearby DW and has that passholder, they started coming to the parks every weekend. I admit it, I did it too when I lived in Lakeland a few years ago. And I did feel some guilt about it after I moved away too. But what my hubby was told by some teenagers when we lived there was that this was what they did every weekend. It was the thing to do in Central Florida if you live there. You go to Disney, Universal, etc.

What the problem is is that by starting these annual passholder programs for the locals, the locals have now turned these theme parks into their place to go and it kinda does ruin the whole thing for the "vacationer", the person who actually paid a LOT of money to come for a week or more to enjoy the place. And y'all know what I'm talking about. Remember when they started making some strict rules about the reservations for restaurants and that was because there was serious abuse of people making the reservations and then not showing up and they were getting tired of it? Who caused that? Not the tourist who came for vacation. And then you've got the entitled attitude from some of these FL/passholders who have proclaimed over the years on this message board about how there isn't a problem and that people are wrong about the passholder taking over DW and such and I mean it just speaks for itself. Then you add in the greed of Disney and it just snowballed from there over the decades.

Remember, and I'm sorry the post is getting long, but DW was meant to be a vacation spot, not a day park, like DL. Now DL makes sense with having the passholder for Californians there; even they've gotten another park and built the Grand Californian, I think that's what it's called, but it's still not the big behemoth that DW is. Because DW was built to be a destination spot. A true vacation. Now Disney is just at fault but it's obvious that they started catering at first to the passholders, for the money they brought in obviously, and it just created a monster. Because it's obvious now that all these fancy restaurants they have at the deluxe hotels, they are expecting these passholders to bring in the money. Also would be the reason why they have overloaded the parks by letting everybody in instead of actually having a limit per day. The overcrowding is part of the reason a lot of people have stopped going in the recent years or if they were on their first vacation, they probably never bothered to come back now.

The annual passholder has got to go, I believe, in order for DW to get back to its original roots and become the vacation destination again. Yes, a FL can come but they're gonna have to pay that ticket price and it should have already been like this--you want to come for a day, you pay the price. Also, the company needs someone in charge of DW who understands this and starts putting new practices and systems in place to get it back to what it originally was supposed to be about. They started catering to the person who returns every weekend instead of the vacationers and that's who you don't want to run off. Because the FL aren't staying at any of those hotels all the time, it would be the vacationer. And this would tie into the problem of why they keep turning more of the hotels into DVC, and we all know what that's all about, that's a whole other problem right there. All in all, this is why the parks are overcrowded and Disney has nobody but themselves to blame. They let the passholders basically take over the place and it's almost as if there's some sort of weird thing where they know they messed up but yet they need those passholder dollars to keep the place going. And this is not what DW was supposed to be about. This is what DL would be. So Disney has really messed up, at least DW, in my opinion and there's no telling what the real solution would be. But I'm just glad I got to enjoy the place when I could but the magic is gone.

This is just my opinion.

I just became a passholder this past month after only visiting the parks every few years as a vacationer, and I will argue that it isn't passholders making the experience miserable. Part of the problem is that the parks have become very popular over the past few years and Disney fails to add new attractions to keep capacity up.

The parks feel overcrowded because there's just not enough to do. If you don't like crowds, go to DAK after 6PM and you'll be able to hit all of the attractions in 2-3 hours since everyone leaves as they have probably done all of the attractions by then.

Islands of Adventure has added capacity the past few years and the park is manageable even with attendance skyrocketing. Even if Hagrid goes down or at a 2 hour wait, there are other options that allow you to feel satisfied. If you visit DAK and FOP is down/2 hour wait, your options are Dinosaur(if you can handle motion sickness), Navi, Everest, Safaris(arguably a one-and-done per day), and Kali (if you want to get wet) - nothing else.

I've always believed that if Disney can manage to add a POTC-style boat ride and omnimover to DHS/DAK, those parks would be much more manageable. And you can't say its not feasible with the cash-grabbing they've been doing and the fact that DAK, a park opening in 1998, will have less attractions than a park debuting in 2025.

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

I'd already posted on another thread about how hubby and I sold our DVC because we're not happy with the place anymore either. And it is sad because this was our happy place. But the greed knows no end now. Obviously some agree and others don't and that's fine. But I would like to just give my opinion on what I think has been the biggest problem at Disney World over the decades. It's gonna be controversial what I say but this is just my opinion but Disney World should have never had the annual passholder for Floridians. I don't know when the program started or if it was always from the beginning when the park first opened, but they should have never started this program.

My reasoning is that Disneyland was the original and was meant to be a day park, like Six Flags. Californians could go there and enjoy and yes they did build some hotels/motels nearby so that way families all over could come and obviously have a place to stay. But DL was originally meant as a day park, and there is a reason why Walt came up with the idea of DW--a vacation resort with the multiple theme parks and hotels because this was gonna be different from DL. And people running the show at the company obviously forgot about this over the decades and the people too.

What everybody has been seeing for the past two decades now is the Floridan who lives nearby DW and has that passholder, they started coming to the parks every weekend. I admit it, I did it too when I lived in Lakeland a few years ago. And I did feel some guilt about it after I moved away too. But what my hubby was told by some teenagers when we lived there was that this was what they did every weekend. It was the thing to do in Central Florida if you live there. You go to Disney, Universal, etc.

What the problem is is that by starting these annual passholder programs for the locals, the locals have now turned these theme parks into their place to go and it kinda does ruin the whole thing for the "vacationer", the person who actually paid a LOT of money to come for a week or more to enjoy the place. And y'all know what I'm talking about. Remember when they started making some strict rules about the reservations for restaurants and that was because there was serious abuse of people making the reservations and then not showing up and they were getting tired of it? Who caused that? Not the tourist who came for vacation. And then you've got the entitled attitude from some of these FL/passholders who have proclaimed over the years on this message board about how there isn't a problem and that people are wrong about the passholder taking over DW and such and I mean it just speaks for itself. Then you add in the greed of Disney and it just snowballed from there over the decades.

Remember, and I'm sorry the post is getting long, but DW was meant to be a vacation spot, not a day park, like DL. Now DL makes sense with having the passholder for Californians there; even they've gotten another park and built the Grand Californian, I think that's what it's called, but it's still not the big behemoth that DW is. Because DW was built to be a destination spot. A true vacation. Now Disney is just at fault but it's obvious that they started catering at first to the passholders, for the money they brought in obviously, and it just created a monster. Because it's obvious now that all these fancy restaurants they have at the deluxe hotels, they are expecting these passholders to bring in the money. Also would be the reason why they have overloaded the parks by letting everybody in instead of actually having a limit per day. The overcrowding is part of the reason a lot of people have stopped going in the recent years or if they were on their first vacation, they probably never bothered to come back now.

The annual passholder has got to go, I believe, in order for DW to get back to its original roots and become the vacation destination again. Yes, a FL can come but they're gonna have to pay that ticket price and it should have already been like this--you want to come for a day, you pay the price. Also, the company needs someone in charge of DW who understands this and starts putting new practices and systems in place to get it back to what it originally was supposed to be about. They started catering to the person who returns every weekend instead of the vacationers and that's who you don't want to run off. Because the FL aren't staying at any of those hotels all the time, it would be the vacationer. And this would tie into the problem of why they keep turning more of the hotels into DVC, and we all know what that's all about, that's a whole other problem right there. All in all, this is why the parks are overcrowded and Disney has nobody but themselves to blame. They let the passholders basically take over the place and it's almost as if there's some sort of weird thing where they know they messed up but yet they need those passholder dollars to keep the place going. And this is not what DW was supposed to be about. This is what DL would be. So Disney has really messed up, at least DW, in my opinion and there's no telling what the real solution would be. But I'm just glad I got to enjoy the place when I could but the magic is gone.

This is just my opinion.

Wow. Are APs really going to let this go mostly unchallenged?? This is VERY controversial.

For full discloser, I'm currently a "former vacationer" and never an AP holder, but I have a few comments I guess. First, it's an interesting perspective I hadn't really thought of previously. I'd really have to see the stats on AP attendance vs vacationers to know if this is accurate. As an opinion, you're entitled to it of course. I have no proof you're wrong, but I also don't know that it's true either. As you've stated, Disney is very dependent on this secured revenue right up front every year. I don't know if they "need it", but I'm sure it makes the margins looking good instantly with the cash infusion. For that reason APs will never go away entirely.

That said, I believe the war on APs has already been waged. Blockout dates are real. The Park Reservation system is real. I don't know if the reservation system will ever go away (I hope so), but this complicates things for APs because they can't just decide last minute to pop in. It's kinda like how no one ever pops in on their friends and relatives anymore. You always have to at least text from the driveway, if not earlier to make sure it's okay. The Disney reservation system complicates things for APs a bit. You also mentioned DVC, and restaurant reservations which are more battles against APs. The only more productive way to slow APs is to cap the number available each year, but that doesn't make sense for Disney. I don't know the actual numbers of APs, but I'm gonna use examples. If you can get 200k people to purchase APs, but highly restrict their ability to use them, that brings in a lot more money than if you were to cap APs at 100k. So I'm guessing they figure why not let people buy 'em as much as they want, and if the restrictions don't slow them down, more money for TWDC.

You can say they need to get rid of APs all you like, but it's just never gonna happen. Just my opinions anyway.

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

I just became a passholder this past month after only visiting the parks every few years as a vacationer, and I will argue that it isn't passholders making the experience miserable. Part of the problem is that the parks have become very popular over the past few years and Disney fails to add new attractions to keep capacity up.

The parks feel overcrowded because there's just not enough to do. If you don't like crowds, go to DAK after 6PM and you'll be able to hit all of the attractions in 2-3 hours since everyone leaves as they have probably done all of the attractions by then.

Islands of Adventure has added capacity the past few years and the park is manageable even with attendance skyrocketing. Even if Hagrid goes down or at a 2 hour wait, there are other options that allow you to feel satisfied. If you visit DAK and FOP is down/2 hour wait, your options are Dinosaur(if you can handle motion sickness), Navi, Everest, Safaris(arguably a one-and-done per day), and Kali (if you want to get wet) - nothing else.

I've always believed that if Disney can manage to add a POTC-style boat ride and omnimover to DHS/DAK, those parks would be much more manageable. And you can't say its not feasible with the cash-grabbing they've been doing and the fact that DAK, a park opening in 1998, will have less attractions than a park debuting in 2025.

Good points, but especially the one I bolded. Each park should really add 2 more omnimover rides. They eat up crowds substantially more than rides like Soarin, FoP, RotR. Those "E-ticket" rides are great, but they don't keep the lines moving. Build a bunch more rides with a HM ride system, and not only are you spreading people out, but you're keeping those queues moving too. I think EVERY Disney park in WDW could use 2 more rides like that. I'm not holding my breath. I'm just saying that could help alleviate some of the crush of humanity in the parks.

 

[Californian Elitist]

My reasoning is that Disneyland was the original and was meant to be a day park, like Six Flags. Californians could go there and enjoy and yes they did build some hotels/motels nearby so that way families all over could come and obviously have a place to stay. But DL was originally meant as a day park, and there is a reason why Walt came up with the idea of DW--a vacation resort with the multiple theme parks and hotels because this was gonna be different from DL.

Walt Disney bought the Florida land to build his city/community called E.P.C.O.T., which never actually happened. He had no intentions of the land being used for a theme park, or multiple theme parks, as it is now. That wasn’t him.

Disneyland and E.P.C.O.T. are two vastly different projects.

 

[Andrew25]

Good points, but especially the one I bolded. Each park should really add 2 more omnimover rides. They eat up crowds substantially more than rides like Soarin, FoP, RotR. Those "E-ticket" rides are great, but they don't keep the lines moving. Build a bunch more rides with a HM ride system, and not only are you spreading people out, but you're keeping those queues moving too. I think EVERY Disney park in WDW could use 2 more rides like that. I'm not holding my breath. I'm just saying that could help alleviate some of the crush of humanity in the parks.

I also think that modern E-tickets for Disney need to reach (or attempt) to hit the 2,000 an hour ride capacity. Tron is looking abysmal compared to GOTG's which could theoretically hit ~2,200 an hour if everything is working right - Tron might reach 3/5 of that? Which is odd considering that MK should be the one receiving the high-capacity ride.

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

Walt Disney bought the Florida land to build his city/community called E.P.C.O.T., which never actually happened. He had no intentions of the land being used for a theme park, or multiple theme parks, as it is now. That wasn’t him.

Disneyland and E.P.C.O.T. are two vastly different projects.

If I'm not mistaken, this is mostly true, but wasn't EPCOT supposed to include a theme park at one end of the property? I'm pretty sure I watched documentary that stated that basically another DL would be built at one end of the property within a quick train ride of the city. Of course a documentary might not have it completely correct, but I believe they did plan for one.

And don't forget that Walt supposedly saw a cowboy walking through Tomorrowland which killed the illusion for him, and was why he dreamed up utilidors. The story about Walt might be a parable of sorts. True, not true... who knows. If it is true though, then obviously Walt had plans for theme parks in the Florida Project as well.

 

[kalel8145]

E.P.C.O.T being an actual city of tomorrow was his vision, changed after his death by those left in charged.
He always planned on building Magic Kingdom. The reason for so much land was so that he could control the theming of the hotels, and wanted the anticipation of actually arriving at the Magic Kingdom without the hotels that popped up by DL.
The cowboy story is true and one of the reasons for the utilidors. They are actually the first floor of the park with the park itself being the 2nd floor due to the water table in FL.

 

[Californian Elitist]

If I'm not mistaken, this is mostly true, but wasn't EPCOT supposed to include a theme park at one end of the property? I'm pretty sure I watched documentary that stated that basically another DL would be built at one end of the property within a quick train ride of the city. Of course a documentary might not have it completely correct, but I believe they did plan for one.

And don't forget that Walt supposedly saw a cowboy walking through Tomorrowland which killed the illusion for him, and was why he dreamed up utilidors. The story about Walt might be a parable of sorts. True, not true... who knows. If it is true though, then obviously Walt had plans for theme parks in the Florida Project as well.

Walt Disney said that he was done with theme parks after Disneyland. It was decided that a Disneyland-like park would be needed to help fund the community that he was planning to build, as well as help gain support for it, if I’m correct (Magic Kingdom). If you look on the Florida Project map, Disneyland is on there, copied and pasted.

Walt had no distinct plans for a theme park and certainly had no intentions of the Florida Project turning into what is now Walt Disney World with dozens of hotels, a few water parks, and some theme parks, as the other poster is trying to make it out to be. Walt’s plans didn’t turn out 100% as he had planned, not that that’s a bad thing, necessarily. Had he lived a decade longer, I have no doubts that more of his actual plans would have come to fruition. It’s interesting to think about what the Florida Project would look like now had he lived even just a couple of more years.

 

[kalel8145]

Walt Disney said that he was done with theme parks after Disneyland. It was decided that a Disneyland-like park would be needed to help fund the community that he was planning to build, as well as help gain support for it, if I’m correct (Magic Kingdom). If you look on the Florida Project map, Disneyland is on there, copied and pasted.

View attachment 637900

Walt had no distinct plans for a theme park and certainly had no intentions of the Florida Project turning into what is now Walt Disney World with dozens of hotels, a few water parks, and some theme parks, as the other poster is trying to make it out to be. Walt’s plans didn’t turn out 100% as he had planned, not that that’s a bad thing, necessarily. Had he lived a decade longer, I have no doubts that more of his actual plans would have come to fruition. It’s interesting to think about what the Florida Project would look like now had he lived even just a couple of more years.

Not sure if the other poster is me, but if it is and I'm wrong, I can admit it. Just tell me. I'm not fragile as some are or pretend to be a know it all. My recollection is from a documentary I watched. If I remember it wrong, just say. No need for passive aggressive. If its not me, then have a good day. Thanks for the info.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Not sure if the other poster is me, but if it is and I'm wrong, I can admit it. Just tell me. I'm not fragile as some are or pretend to be a know it all. My recollection is from a documentary I watched. If I remember it wrong, just say. No need for passive aggressive. If its not me, then have a good day. Thanks for the info.

No, it’s not you. I’m referring to the first person I quoted, who was making the DL and WDW comparisons.

 

[Trackmaster]

Europa Park, Efteling, Dollywood, and eventually Epic Universe would beg to differ.

Look at that, they all start with E.

I think that the reality is that this is just the difference between Europe and America. As far as the expensive tourist destination parks with immersive theming goes, Disney and Universal pretty much have an oligopoly. But Europe has Phantasialand, Europa, Eftling, Tivoli Gardens, Alton Towers, etc. In the entire continent, they have one Disney resort and no Universals.

As somebody who is really into all theme parks, I have a pretty good understanding of their dynamics. If you love coasters like me, you'll love a lot of the regional parks in the country, possibly even moreso than Disney/Universal. But if you aren't into coasters, they'll be cheap imitations to you.

Dollywood/SDC are fantastic parks, but I'd still put them at a noticeable tier lower than Disney/Universal. I'm not saying I enjoy them any less, but the investment in the parks just isn't the same level as the parks run by massive MNCs.

 

[Andrew25]

I think that the reality is that this is just the difference between Europe and America. As far as the expensive tourist destination parks with immersive theming goes, Disney and Universal pretty much have an oligopoly. But Europe has Phantasialand, Europa, Eftling, Tivoli Gardens, Alton Towers, etc. In the entire continent, they have one Disney resort and no Universals.

As somebody who is really into all theme parks, I have a pretty good understanding of their dynamics. If you love coasters like me, you'll love a lot of the regional parks in the country, possibly even moreso than Disney/Universal. But if you aren't into coasters, they'll be cheap imitations to you.

Dollywood/SDC are fantastic parks, but I'd still put them at a noticeable tier lower than Disney/Universal. I'm not saying I enjoy them any less, but the investment in the parks just isn't the same level as the parks run by massive MNCs.

Not saying they are better or the same quality, but they truly try their best to cater to the entire family.

 

[graphite1326]

Not saying they are better or the same quality, but they truly try their best to cater to the entire family.

Best family park that you can go to and spend no money-Knoebels Grove.

 

[kalel8145]

Best family park that you can go to and spend no money-Knoebels Grove.

I looked it up. Looks very cool. The Black Diamond mine car thing awesome. How does it work there? Just pay per ride?

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

I looked it up. Looks very cool. The Black Diamond mine car thing awesome. How does it work there? Just pay per ride?

I just looked it up too. Yep, per ride. https://www.knoebels.com/ride?category=thrill

 

[kalel8145]

I just looked it up too. Yep, per ride. https://www.knoebels.com/ride?category=thrill

Looks very reasonable too. Plus they have a campground. Very cool.

 

[Jrb1979]

Looks very reasonable too. Plus they have a campground. Very cool.

It's on my bucket list of parks to visit. There is some amazing parks in the US. I've always wondered why the majority of people only know their local park or the Florida parks.