wdwishes2005
New Member
really, lets thnk about this, thrill rides since '94 ToT RnRC, pooh, TT and MS- MS ToT and RNRC didnt replace non thrill rides- pooh did - TT replaced WoM, hmmmm thats really uneven.
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What 1 thing would stop you from going back to Disney.
- Thread starter bgraham34
- Start date
Dragonrider1227 said:
From 1982 - 2000 Epcot had about 10 to 12 Million people each year. Kitchen Cabaret closed in 1994. Word of Motion closed in 1996. Horizons closed in 1999. Journey into Imagination closed in 1999. From 2001 to 2005 Epcot's attendance had been around 9 million. All the big new attractions Soarin', Space, Test Track have health restrictions and height requirements. Grandma and the kids can't ride. All of you that say most people want thrill rides are absolutely right. About 85% seem happy. The problem is that TWDC is a growth company and a 10 to 15% decrease in attendance is not okay. Epcot's fixed costs mean that it needs about 8.5 million to break even. Profits begin after that. So a 10 to 15% decrease is devastating. This is bad business and bad guest service.
I worked for Epcot during this time and I recorded a lot of photo cell counts. Please see Amusement business if you want verification...and I don't think any parent of a small child would call SGE "family friendly."
wannab@dis
Well-Known Member
Mr. Eggz said:
Following your logic, the attendance should have started dropping in 94 and continually decreased through 99. Did it? Or did the event in 01 that you convienantly left out have a much larger impact on the numbers? Also, how do you account for the rise in attendance over the last two years? Seems that you have some holes that need plugging in your attempt to hold on to the past.
Thrawn
Account Suspended
Mr. Eggz said:
Oh come on, thats not even fair. The attendance from 2001 to the present has nothing to do with the rides, and everything to do with 9/11. The park had a 9% increase last year, and a 4% the year before. So that puts the park at about 8m in 2002, and that is after 9/11.
Are you just making up numbers as you go along? 9 million for the last four years? No. It has steadily increased for the last four years since 9/11/01.
And your numbers on profit simply cannot be correct. You are going to try and say that the number 3 attended theme park in North America is just breaking even? Thats hogwash.
http://themeparks.about.com/cs/usparks/a/attendance2003.htm
http://themeparks.about.com/od/themeparksresourcecenter/a/10TopParks2004.htm
wannab@dis said:
First of all, there were nine months and 10 days of lower attendence in 2001 before 9/11.
Secondly, you answered your own question. The very slow increase in attendance from 2001 to 2005 is the result of the public becoming more open to travel after 9/11. However, Epcot rise was much slower than the other 3 parks. They are the constant by which Epcot can be measured.
Thrawn
Account Suspended
Mr. Eggz said:
Since Disney doesn't release day to day numbers, we'll never know that for sure. However, the drop off from Sept 11 to the end of 2001 was enough to ruin the attendance for the full year.
Mr. Eggz said:
Are you purposely lying? Or are you just making stuff up as you go along? Because either way, you're wrong.
2003
# The Magic Kingdom at Walt Disney World, Lake Buena Vista, Fla., 14 million, flat.
# Disneyland, Anaheim, Calif., 12.7 million, flat.
# Epcot at Walt Disney World, Lake Buena Vista, Fla., 8.6 million, up 4 percent.
# Disney-MGM Studios at Walt Disney World, Lake Buena Vista, Fla., 7.8 million, down 2 percent.
# Disney's Animal Kingdom at Walt Disney World, Lake Buena Vista, Fla., 7.3 million, flat.
# Universal Studios at Universal Orlando, 6.8 million, flat.
# Islands of Adventure at Universal Orlando, 6 million, flat.
# Disney's California Adventures, Anaheim, Calif., 5.3 million, up 13 percent.
# SeaWorld Florida, Orlando, Fla., 5.2 million, up 4 percent.
# Universal Studios Hollywood, Universal City, Calif., 4.5 million, down 12 percent.
2004
# The Magic Kingdom at Walt Disney World, Lake Buena Vista, Fla., 15.2 million, up 8%.
# Disneyland, Anaheim, Calif., 13.4 million, up 5%.
# Epcot at Walt Disney World, Lake Buena Vista, Fla., 9.4 million, up 9%.
# Disney-MGM Studios at Walt Disney World, Lake Buena Vista, Fla., 8.3 million, up 5%.
# Disney's Animal Kingdom at Walt Disney World, Lake Buena Vista, Fla., 7.8 million, up 7%.
# Universal Studios at Universal Orlando, 6.7 million, up 14%.
# Islands of Adventure at Universal Orlando, 6.3 million, up 13%.
# Disney's California Adventures, Anaheim, Calif., 5.6 million, up 6%.
# SeaWorld Florida, Orlando, Fla., 5.6 million, up %.
# Universal Studios Hollywood, Universal City, Calif., 5 million, up 8%.
Note that parts that I bolded. Note that Epcot is the second biggest gain in 03 and the third biggest in 04.
Anything else to say?
Thrawn said:
See above.
Thrawn said:
9 million is an average. There has been a slow increase which is consistant with the travel industry, but its rate has lagged behind others.
Thrawn said:
They are correct. Epcot has famously low margins. So low that it was cited as proof of irresponsible management in '84 proving that Disney is ripe for a takeover. See "Storming the Magik Kingdom" by John Taylor.
And for the record. I am 100% for change! Smart change!
Thrawn said:
You only quoted two years. that is not a large enough sample size. Lokk at this...
Park visitors
1 Disneyland 15 million
2 Magic Kingdom 13.8 million
3 Epcot 11.2 million
4 Disney-MGM Studios 10 million
5 Universal Studios Florida 8.4 million
6 Universal Studios Hollywood 5.4 million
7 Sea World of Florida 5.1 million
8 Busch Gardens Tampa 4.2 million
9 Six Flags Great Adventure 6 million
10 Sea World of California 3.9 million
Source: Amusement Business most-visited theme park for 1997.
Epcot used to get 10 to 12 million every year in the 80s and 90s. Look were it fell from. Your numbers back up what I am saying when compared to these.
Thrawn
Account Suspended
Mr. Eggz said:
Pre 9/11.
Post a link to your source.
Also, how can you say "not large enough sample size" and then only give one year on your own? Laughable.
Also, 2001 is out the door due to 9/11. 2002 I could not readily find a link to, otherwise I would. 2005 numbers are not available yet. Therefore, the two years I posted are the available information. Unless you want to post the other years, but I doubt that you will since they will not back up the falsehoods that you are spreading.
Edit: Also, the numbers from 2003 give the change from 2002, so that gives you the rough idea of the 2002 numbers. Therefore, those are all the post 9/11 numbers that are important.
You stated, and I quote:
and
Falses statement, proven untrue. If anything, Epcot is outperforming the other Orlando area attractions, and North American parks in general. The 13% increase over 2003 and 2004 is neck and neck with Universal Orlando's parks and ahead of the rest of Disney's parks. Edit: And, since Universal and Epcot have the biggest increases in the last two years, the argument can be made that it is the thrill rides pulling the guests in.
wannab@dis
Well-Known Member
Seeing how the numbers by month are not available, I'm not sure how you can attest to the fact that 9/11 didn't cause the overall loss for 2001. Furthermore, you have left out another major component and that is the reduced numbers for all parks, not just Epcot.Mr. Eggz said:
Epcot's numbers has risen faster than the other WDW parks in the last couple of years, so how do you equate that to just the increase in visitors after 9/11. If anything, it shows that the addition of the attractions in the park accounted for the upswing in numbers.
In fact, let's take it one step further and throw out another hypothesis. The lack of change and new attractions at Epcot during the late 90's is the reason the numbers were down. Hanging on the oldies equated to the erosion of attendance. WDW execs saw this and started the plan to revitalise the parks.
We don't have all the facts, nor do we have access to the internal surveys the management uses in their decisions. However, we can attempt to use the numbers to support both arguments. I tend to give the benefit of doubt to the ones that have access to the whole picture.
Thrawn
Account Suspended
wannab@dis said:Seeing how the numbers by month are not available, I'm not sure how you can attest to the fact that 9/11 didn't cause the overall loss for 2001. Furthermore, you have left out another major component and that is the reduced numbers for all parks, not just Epcot.
Epcot's numbers has risen faster than the other WDW parks in the last couple of years, so how do you equate that to just the increase in visitors after 9/11. If anything, it shows that the addition of the attractions in the park accounted for the upswing in numbers.
In fact, let's take it one step further and throw out another hypothesis. The lack of change and new attractions at Epcot during the late 90's is the reason the numbers were down. Hanging on the oldies equated to the erosion of attendance. WDW execs saw this and started the plan to revitalise the parks.
We don't have all the facts, nor do we have access to the internal surveys the management uses in their decisions. However, we can use the numbers to support both arguments. I tend to give the benefit of doubt to the ones that have access to the whole picture.
Psst I got this under control.
:wave:
wannab@dis
Well-Known Member
I can see that you have done a fine job. However, another POV is always good even if it's in agreement. :wave:Thrawn said:Psst I got this under control.
:lol:
Okay, i was wrong about Epcot not growing as fast as the other parks, but take a look at this.
Attendance figures for 1998
Theme Park Visitors (1998) Change (Since 1997)
Magic Kingdom 15,640,000 -8%
Disneyland, Calif 13,680,000 -4%
EPCOT 10,596,750 -10%
Disney-MGM Studios 9,473,000 -10%
Universal Studios Florida 8,900,000 0%
Animal Kingdom 6,000,000 N.A
Universal Studios Hollywood 5,100,000 -5%
SeaWorld Orlando 4,900,000 0%
Busch Gardens Tampa Bay 4,200,000 0%
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Attendance figures for 1999
Theme Park Visitors (1999) Change (Since 1998)
Magic Kingdom 15,200,000 -2.8%
Disneyland, Calif 13,400,000 -2.0%
EPCOT 10,100,000 -4.6%
Disney-MGM Studios 8,700,000 -8.1%
Disney Animal Kingdom 8,600,000 +43.3%
Universal Studios Florida 8,100,000 -8.9%
Islands of Adventure 3,400,000 N.A
Universal Studios Hollywood Unknown N/A
SeaWorld Orlando Unknown N/A
Busch Gardens Tampa Bay Unknown N/A
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Attendance figures for 2001
The figures below for 2001 are partially estimate based, from an annual survey by Amusement Business magazine.
Theme Park Visitors (2001) Change (Since 2000)
Tokyo Disneyland 17,700,000 +7%
Magic Kingdom 14,700,000 -4%
Disneyland Anaheim 12,300,000 -11%
EPCOT 9,000,000 -15%
Disney-MGM Studios 8,300,000 -6%
Animal Kingdom 7,700,000 -7%
Universal Studios Orlando 7,200,000 -10%
Islands of Adventure 5,500,000 -8%
SeaWorld of Orlando 5,100,000 -2%
Disney's California Adventure 5,000,000 Opened 2001
Universal Studios Hollywood 4,700,000 -9%
SeaWorld California 4,100,000 +13%
Six Flags, Jackson, N.J 3,560,000 +1.7%
But my original statement stands. Epcot used to make 10 - 12M a year, and now it hover around 9M, where as MK. These numbers show that Epcot's decline began before 9/11.
http://www.solarius.com/dvp/wdw/attendance_figures.htm
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Attendance figures for 1998
Theme Park Visitors (1998) Change (Since 1997)
Magic Kingdom 15,640,000 -8%
Disneyland, Calif 13,680,000 -4%
EPCOT 10,596,750 -10%
Disney-MGM Studios 9,473,000 -10%
Universal Studios Florida 8,900,000 0%
Animal Kingdom 6,000,000 N.A
Universal Studios Hollywood 5,100,000 -5%
SeaWorld Orlando 4,900,000 0%
Busch Gardens Tampa Bay 4,200,000 0%
__
Attendance figures for 1999
Theme Park Visitors (1999) Change (Since 1998)
Magic Kingdom 15,200,000 -2.8%
Disneyland, Calif 13,400,000 -2.0%
EPCOT 10,100,000 -4.6%
Disney-MGM Studios 8,700,000 -8.1%
Disney Animal Kingdom 8,600,000 +43.3%
Universal Studios Florida 8,100,000 -8.9%
Islands of Adventure 3,400,000 N.A
Universal Studios Hollywood Unknown N/A
SeaWorld Orlando Unknown N/A
Busch Gardens Tampa Bay Unknown N/A
__
Attendance figures for 2001
The figures below for 2001 are partially estimate based, from an annual survey by Amusement Business magazine.
Theme Park Visitors (2001) Change (Since 2000)
Tokyo Disneyland 17,700,000 +7%
Magic Kingdom 14,700,000 -4%
Disneyland Anaheim 12,300,000 -11%
EPCOT 9,000,000 -15%
Disney-MGM Studios 8,300,000 -6%
Animal Kingdom 7,700,000 -7%
Universal Studios Orlando 7,200,000 -10%
Islands of Adventure 5,500,000 -8%
SeaWorld of Orlando 5,100,000 -2%
Disney's California Adventure 5,000,000 Opened 2001
Universal Studios Hollywood 4,700,000 -9%
SeaWorld California 4,100,000 +13%
Six Flags, Jackson, N.J 3,560,000 +1.7%
But my original statement stands. Epcot used to make 10 - 12M a year, and now it hover around 9M, where as MK. These numbers show that Epcot's decline began before 9/11.
http://www.solarius.com/dvp/wdw/attendance_figures.htm
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Thrawn
Account Suspended
Mr. Eggz said:
I don't understand. Now you are seemingly arguing that the changes were needed, since attendance was down. The changes started in 1999, with Test Track opening. According to the link you posted, Epcot was down 15% from 2000 to 2001, which is 10,350,000 in 2000, which is up slightly from 1999.
Sorry, but your argument doesn't work, and you are posting things that prove it.
As far as "hovering around 9m" goes, if the increase this year is the same as last, and all signs point to the fact that it would be at least a repeat of the last increase, then it would put attendance at roughly 10.25 million for 2005.
Thrawn said:
No the changes began in 1994...
1994 - Food Rocks & SSE redo & Innoventions
1995 - Ellen's Energy Adventure & HISTA open
1996 - Motion Closes
1999 - Horizons and imagination close and Test Track opens
I'm saying that the attendance went down as a result of the closures of family attractions. Sure Space and Saorin' will give a small boost, but they just can't seem to get back anywhere near the 10 - 12M numbers of the 80s and early 90s.
I saw the photo cell counts drop when Kitchen became Food Rocks and when Imaningation became JIYI. They plummeted like 75%. Magic Kingdom has fully recovered to the kind of numbers pre-911. Epcot is several million people off. I belive it is a lack of family attractions (or good family attractions becoming bad ones) is what caused this net drop. this is based on the guest comments I have read and the guests I have talked to. You can belive it's 9/11, but if that were true, why did MK regain its numbers and not Epcot?
Thrawn
Account Suspended
Mr. Eggz said:
1997:
MK: 16,891,200
Epcot: 11,656,425
Deviation: 1.45
1998:
MK: 15,640,000
Epcot: 10,596,750
Deviation: 1.48
1999:
MK: 15,200,000
Epcot: 10,100,000
Deviation: 1.50
2000: (Numbers derived from your own post of the 2001 numbers)
MK: 15,288,000
Epcot: 10,350,000
Deviation: 1.48
2002:
MK: 14,000,000
Epcot: 8,256,000
Deviation: 1.70
2003:
MK: 14,000,000
Epcot: 8,600,000
Deviation: 1.63
2004:
MK: 15,200,000
Epcot: 9,400,000
Deviation: 1.61
Now, thats all the numbers we can get from this thread. I have left 2001 out, because it isn't accurate.
According to these numbers, MK has not yet re-reached its high point in attendance prior to 9/11, nor has Epcot. However, the deviation is closing per year. 1.61 opposed to 1.48 really isn't that different. You also have to take into consideration that the end of 1999 and all of 2000 had the Millennium Celebration focused on Epcot, so the attendance is somewhat artificially inflated. Those "celebration" guests are usually allocated to MK, and not Epcot, which is where the bump comes from. It stands to reason that the 2005 numbers will put Epcot at least in line with the 2000 numbers. The disappearance of discount codes for a portion of 05 is proof enough that Disney is having no problem filling the resort.
And again, the park is growing faster than any other Disney park since 9/11. You can't expect much more.
Thrawn said:
First of all, since you are comparing MK to Epcot which are only 2.5 miles apart it is safe to assume the the effects of 9/11 were the same on MK as Epcot and therefore 2001 should be included.
This only helps prove my point. Look at Epcot's numbers drop while the MK numbers stay relatively solid. The deviation grows. How is this helping your point?