What 1 thing would stop you from going back to Disney.

[Thrawn]

First of all, since you are comparing MK to Epcot which are only 2.5 miles apart it is safe to assume the the effects of 9/11 were the same on MK as Epcot and therefore 2001 should be included.

This only helps prove my point. Look at Epcot's numbers drop while the MK numbers stay relatively solid. The deviation grows. How is this helping your point?

If you want to include 2001, the deviation there is 1.63. Which puts the deviation of 04 of 1.61 smaller than 01, and therefore Epcot has recovered closer to MK then it was pre 2001. In fact, it did so in 03 if you want to include 2001 in the calculations.

The point is this, if you can't see it:
The changes Disney has made since 2001 have pulled Epcot closer to MK in attendance each year. Notice the deviation is rising from 97 to 01, and 02 to 04 it is going down. (exception, as noted, is 2000, which is the Millennium Celebration year). Therefore, the addition of M:S and the various minor changes around the park have it on the right track and in better shape than it has been since 2000.

 

[Thrawn]

...and before you say the the gap has closed in the past three years, I'm comparing to the 90s. And yes, I can ask for more. I can ask for the guest satisfaction and attendance from the 80s and early 90s.

Newsflash. The 90's are gone. Forget them. Also, since you haven't posted any links with attendance from the 90s prior to 97, I cannot comment on them. And just what are you comparing to the 90s? 2001? 2004? What year in the 90s are you comparing to? Do you need time to find a different point to argue now, since you've done that twice already?

One thing you seem to ignore is that in the late 90s, all the pavilions were showing their age, and this is why upgrades had to be done. GM wasn't going to renew their sponsorship without an upgrade to WoM. Horizons had to go. The Land and The Living Seas were in need of major work, which had gone far too long until it happened in the last year or so.

 

[Mr. Eggz]

I don't understand. Now you are seemingly arguing that the changes were needed, since attendance was down.

Please don't mistake me for someone else. I am NOT arguing against change in any way. There are not only two choices here; to change or not to change. Disney must continue to change. Change is good. I am saying it is a mistake to remove family rides in faver of thrill/scary rides to this degree. To make matters worse, Disney seems to have forgotten how to make a good family ride (JIYI, Food Rocks) or they make a ride that they think is okay for families but is not (Tough to be a Bug, SGE).

 

[Mr. Eggz]

One thing you seem to ignore is that in the late 90s, all the pavilions were showing their age, and this is why upgrades had to be done. GM wasn't going to renew their sponsorship without an upgrade to WoM. Horizons had to go. The Land and The Living Seas were in need of major work, which had gone far too long until it happened in the last year or so.

I am not arguing any of this. Changes are not the issue. I AM NOT ARGUING AGAINST CHANGE! You are mistaking me for someone else. I have not changed my arguement. Change is good! Changing good family rides for bad family rides or thrill rides is not!

 

[Thrawn]

Please don't mistake me for someone else. I am NOT arguing against change in any way. There are not only two choices here; to change or not to change. Disney must continue to change. Change is good. I am saying it is a mistake to remove family rides in faver of thrill/scary rides to this degree. To make matters worse, Disney seems to have forgotten how to make a good family ride (JIYI, Food Rocks) or they make a ride that they think is okay for families but is not (Tough to be a Bug, SGE).

You are taking examples of what you consider bad attractions while ignoring what most consider good family attractions. Soarin. Mickey's Philharmagic. Buzz. Kilimanjaro Safaris. Turtle Talk with Crush. Just to name a few off the top of my head, are considered great family attractions, all of which are undeniably Disney.
Not all rides have to be family friendly. If thats your belief, you should go back to 1957 or so and inform Walt before he builds the Matterhorn.

 

[Thrawn]

I am not arguing any of this. Changes are not the issue. I AM NOT ARGUING AGAINST CHANGE! You are mistaking me for someone else. I have not changed my arguement. Change is good! Changing good family rides for bad family rides or thrill rides is not!

What attractions at Epcot have gone from good family rides to bad family rides or thrill rides?

Do not mention World of Motion or Horizons, as those changes could not have been helped.

 

[Mr. Eggz]

You are taking examples of what you consider bad attractions while ignoring what most consider good family attractions. Soarin. Mickey's Philharmagic. Buzz. Kilimanjaro Safaris. Turtle Talk with Crush. Just to name a few off the top of my head, are considered great family attractions, all of which are undeniably Disney.
Not all rides have to be family friendly. If thats your belief, you should go back to 1957 or so and inform Walt before he builds the Matterhorn.

All of the attractions you list above are very good, I agree. But Soarin' has a height requirement.

Much of what Disney does is very good...in particular Kilimanjaro Safaris and all the great theming at DAK. I love it. But I think Epcot in particular has failed in the past 11 years. But yes, Turtle Talk is good. There are some exceptions.

The Matterhorn open in 1959 and had an age limit of 3 years old. I think some thrill rides are fine, but replaceing family rides with thrill rides is not.

 

[Mr. Eggz]

What attractions at Epcot have gone from good family rides to bad family rides or thrill rides?

Do not mention World of Motion or Horizons, as those changes could not have been helped.

They both could have been helped. Disney chose to pitch Test Track to GM and Space to HP. They could just have easily created attractions that the whole family could enjoy.

...and I like Soarin' but it too has a height requirement, and HISTA although kids can technically see it, it is too scary for many. All of Epcot's big additions ($50M+) of the past 11 years have not been family friendly.

 

[Thrawn]

They both could have been helped. Disney chose to pitch Test Track to GM and Space to HP. They could just have easily created attractions that the whole family could enjoy.

Test Track is the ride GM wanted. They were shown different things, one included a basically expanded World of Motion, and they chose Test Track (leaving out the 95mph loop that WDI wanted). Mission: Space was going to be built with or without HP. Every once in a while, Disney will build a "signature" ride system that pushes the envelope. Before M:S was the EMV system, and before EMV was the motion sim.

...and I like Soarin' but it too has a height requirement, and HISTA although kids can technically see it, it is too scary for many. All of Epcot's big additions ($50M+) of the past 11 years have not been family friendly.

What do you classify as family friendly, and what do you classify as "kids"?

I went with my then 5 year old brother to the first ever showing of ITTBAB and he had less of a problem with it then some of the adults in the theater. Heck, he rode Star Tours like 15 times on that trip.

Do you have children of your own? Or children that go to WDW with you? Or are you just making assumptions based on the "facts" presented on message boards such as these?

 

[Halfling418]

Only if it was physically impossible for me to go would I stop going.

 

[Mr. Eggz]

Test Track is the ride GM wanted. They were shown different things, one included a basically expanded World of Motion, and they chose Test Track (leaving out the 95mph loop that WDI wanted). Mission: Space was going to be built with or without HP. Every once in a while, Disney will build a "signature" ride system that pushes the envelope. Before M:S was the EMV system, and before EMV was the motion sim.

Test track may have been a special case, I don't know, but in general Disney developes ideas internally and pitches the one idea they believe in to the sponsor. This is what happed with Space. Edie Sotto was with WDI at the time. He developed the idea. He pitched to all levels of management. He did not intend for it to replace Horizons. Disney management made that decision. Then they shoped it around and got HP ("Compaq" at the time).

What do you classify as family friendly, and what do you classify as "kids"?

Horizons, WOM, Journey into Imagination were all family friendly. They did not have height or health restrictions. Every member of the family could ride. Attactions like HISTA and TTBAB scare some kids to death. I have escorted many families out of both attractions (I was a CM for 7 years).

I went with my then 5 year old brother to the first ever showing of ITTBAB and he had less of a problem with it then some of the adults in the theater. Heck, he rode Star Tours like 15 times on that trip.

That's great for your brother, but every kid is different. It's funny that you mention the first ever showing of TTBAB. I was at the press premier (as a CM) and I had to escort Dave Foley (the voice of Flick) and his wife and their three kids out. His kids were scared to death. Dave Foley never even saw the show he was in.

Do you have children of your own? Or children that go to WDW with you? Or are you just making assumptions based on the "facts" presented on message boards such as these?

I do have a child now and I am basing everything I am saying on my exeriences as a CM, a guest and a parent.

 

[Dragonrider1227]

Only if it was physically impossible for me to go would I stop going.

I'm suddenly seeing Homer when he got food poisioning and couldn't go to Duff Gardens.
"Duff Gardens....HORAH" *passes out on steering wheel* :lol:
and honestly, not everything in Disneyworld CAN be family friendly. WDW is known to get plenty of guests that don't have kids and they have to please and satisfy THEIR wants as well otherwise they'll go to another theme park that will such as Universal.

 

[wdwishes2005]

ive said it before and ill say it again because not one person can argue with this and no one cares to admit they are wrong. families are made up of different ppl- average family A- 69 year old grandmother
45 year old mother
46 year old father
17 year old
10 year old
5 year old
lets break this down
5 and 69 year olds want mild tame rides
17 and 45 year olds like thrill rides
46 year old will go either way.
how do you make the family happy? a balance. there are few to none truly ' family friendly ' attractions ANYWHERE let alone WDW.

 

[Shanandty]

I've only been once ( gasp!!) But being from Canada, and a single parent- it's been cost that has prevented me from going all these years. We just went in July, and my son and I already are planning trip #2, but beacuse its a 5K trip for us, it will be in 2 years. But we already can't wait!!!

 

[LeeSeeBabe]

Bad Experience

When I was about 10, my family and I stayed at the Yacht Club. My brother and I were playing around and he stepped on this big needle that was in the carpt (of course no from us). So my parent freaked out, without telling me or my brothers. We had to leave a day early so my brother could get a huge tetnis (sp?) shot. To say the least my parents weren't happy.

As scary as that was, we still go to Disney all the time! However, haven't stayed at Yacht Club since (Beach Club yes though). So I think it would have to take alot for me to not go back, even though it isn't rare for someone in my family to get sick off of food each trip.

 

[MayKit]

If I got to go to Australia, or maybe England, instead.

Places like that are, of course, way too expensive now.

 

[mousermerf]

Test track may have been a special case, I don't know, but in general Disney developes ideas internally and pitches the one idea they believe in to the sponsor. This is what happed with Space. Edie Sotto was with WDI at the time. He developed the idea. He pitched to all levels of management. He did not intend for it to replace Horizons. Disney management made that decision. Then they shoped it around and got HP ("Compaq" at the time).
.

Eddie Sotto may have blue-skyed M:S but he did not do the final design. Knowing the way things tend to work, the time-frame when he left versus when ground was broke, and actually knowing him while it was being built and especially his excitement over an email from the development team that had the first in-pod footage - i think its safe to say he did not "finish" the project. I think his position at the top of the food chain made him moreso a suit than a designer with that particular project.

M:S was planned for Epcot from the beginning. It was an outgrowth of the original space pavilion idea. Epcot only has so many spots - and for it come, something had to go. Perhaps the empty building?

 

[billybaruch1]

Back to the point

If it became too crowded in the "off-season," that would stop me from going back to Disney. I guess the company would be very successful and able to pick up trash and have less deaths on the rides, etc., but I still wouldn't like it. :wave: :lol:

 

[markc]

M:S was planned for Epcot from the beginning. It was an outgrowth of the original space pavilion idea. Epcot only has so many spots - and for it come, something had to go. Perhaps the empty building?

Horizons was never the "empty building". I'm not sure if you are referring to the lack of guests or the actual contents of the building towards the end of it's life..but it was only emptied once they made the decision to go through with MS.

As for having a limited amount of spots; there's room in Future World to build more pavillions; there's always been the discussion of placing a new building somewhere in between the Living Seas. In fact, back in '97, preliminary plans were drawn up to build the Space pavillion in part of the Resort bus area, while re-doing the logisitcal flow of the parking lot to move the bus stop further down to the area of where the Kennel is. Those plans were nixed after some cost analysis was done, realizing that if they went through all that, they would still need to overhaul Horizons, and at that time, nobody in Team Disney wanted to splurge that far, especially with the problems and extra money they were pouring into Test Track's failure of being able to open on time and the JIYI rehab that was already planned for a year later.

 

[Blackie Pueblo]

I swear there is a building that's almost empty all the time with the exceptions of putting artwork in there certain times of the year. It seems like it's a waste of a building to me.

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