WDWFreak53, car discussion

garyhoov

Trophy Husband
...umm...why? :lookaroun

I kinda like the bold-ness of it.

Just remove the line up the hood and over the wheelwells.

When it comes to car design, I like simple, smooth, curved, flowing, organic . . .

This design is much too self conscious with far to many discordant lines and flat, planed surfaces put in place of natural curves.

The design fights nature rather than flowing with it.

Very un-Zen indeed.:lookaroun
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Somebody needs to do a serious intervention with the BMW designers:

did you see the story of the car? there is very good reason it looks that way.. it's fabric stretched over bars!

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/10/bmw-gina-light-visionary-model-revealed/

GINA stands for "Geometry and Functions in 'N' Adaptations", which basically means that designers from both BMW and BMW Group DesignworksUSA were allowed to throw out the rulebook. This is most evident in the GINA Light Visionary Model's outer skin, which is made entirely out of textile fabric that's pulled taut around a frame of metal and carbon fiber wires. The skeleton of the car is controlled by electro-hydraulic devices and can actually move and change shape beneath the fabric skin. For instance, the headlights of the concept can be exposed or hidden by the car's skin just like blinking eyes, and the hood opens from the center as the fabric parts to expose the engine

more at the link...
 

garyhoov

Trophy Husband
did you see the story of the car? there is very good reason it looks that way.. it's fabric stretched over bars!

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/10/bmw-gina-light-visionary-model-revealed/



more at the link...

Yep, I did read it.

Must be nice to have enough time and money to waste it on projects like that.:lol:

I don't mind the idea of fabric. That's a cool idea (assuming you have a design that doesn't require or benefit from rigid body panels)

. . . but why add all the extra weight and complexity of electro-hydraulic devices to change the shape?

I'm afraid I've just never been a fan of such frivolous exercises.:shrug:

I like show cars to be at least close to something that can/might actually be produced.
 

WDWFREAK53

Well-Known Member
Yep, I did read it.

Must be nice to have enough time and money to waste it on projects like that.:lol:

I don't mind the idea of fabric. That's a cool idea (assuming you have a design that doesn't require or benefit from rigid body panels)

. . . but why add all the extra weight and complexity of electro-hydraulic devices to change the shape?

I'm afraid I've just never been a fan of such frivolous exercises.:shrug:

I like show cars to be at least close to something that can/might actually be produced.

...plus...I don't like my cars winking at me! :lookaroun

Watch that video...it's downright creepy!
 

WDWFREAK53

Well-Known Member
Is this really a Corvette Concept being used in Transformers 2???

2010-Corvette-Concept.jpg
 

DMC-12

It's HarmonioUS, NOT HarmoniYOU.

:slurp: Yeah.... its pretty sick.

However.. the CTS Coupe makes me more tight in the pants area than the V does. :lol::lookaroun
If they were to come out with the V- in Coupe mode... well... then I would surely asplode. :lol:

But... as gas heads ever closer to $5 a gal here... I think I am just gonna hold out for the Chevy Volt.

..speaking of that... I just laugh at the car lots full of Trucks and SUVs that just wont sell now... even if you are giving em away... still.. nobody wants em :lol: I think its funny to see a Soccer mom go from a Lincoln Navigator... to a Nissan Versa or a Honda Fit, overnight :lol: . Talk about a major downsizing... LOL!
 

garyhoov

Trophy Husband
Are they putting the Volt into production? The last time I checked, it had been removed from the "Future Vehicles" section of the website.


I'm following the Volt pretty closely, and here's the cuurent status as far as I can remember and string things together:

1. Production to start in late 2010 with approximately 10,000 cars to be made first year and 60,000 second year.

2. Price: "Just under $40,000" (I'm guessing $39,995). GM should be close to breaking even at that point, but won't be making a big profit if any. They expect to increase profit as volumes go up and costs come down (since the technology is so unique, there should be a lot of room for cost savings as they learn to do things better - as opposed to more traditional components which have already been pushed to very low price points).

3. GM is pushing hard for government subsidies (and government reps are talking as if they intend to help on that end), and they hope that assistance will help reduce price (with tax breaks going either to consumers or directly to GM)

4. All indications are that the batteries are working very well, and if there are problems, it's likely to be components other than batteries (though I don't know if either of the two competing suppliers have been officially chosen yet - they may try to give them both some business and have them both develop and refine concurrently). Still expected to have a 40 mile all-electric range.

5. Latest rumor is that there may be roof-top solar cells to help charge battery (I'd expect this to be a costly option if it happens).

On an interesting side note, Toyota has been crapping all over this from the start saying that lithium ion batteries aren't ready for prime-time and they'll continue with nickel metal hydride. But recently They've made a major turn and are talking up lithium ion and plug-in hybrids. I'd expect a lithium ion Prius around the same time the Volt really gets going . . . but I also expect GM's design to be more forward thinking.

GM's method of driving all the wheels electrically and using the range-extending engine basically as a generator is a cool idea and gives it more of an ability to go all electric or replace the ICE engine with a fuel cell.

Toyota's got a great position, but I don't expect their next generation Prius to be as big a leap as the Volt. That will help them in terms of offering a more reliable and lower cost Vehicle, but GM's ballsy move could propel them to the technological lead (if they can do their homework and make sure this very novel technology doesn't have too many dramatic, news-making failures.

This is GM's moon-shot, and I'm hoping they can pull it off.
 

DMC-12

It's HarmonioUS, NOT HarmoniYOU.
I'm following the Volt pretty closely, and here's the cuurent status as far as I can remember and string things together:

1. Production to start in late 2010 with approximately 10,000 cars to be made first year and 60,000 second year.

2. Price: "Just under $40,000" (I'm guessing $39,995). GM should be close to breaking even at that point, but won't be making a big profit if any. They expect to increase profit as volumes go up and costs come down (since the technology is so unique, there should be a lot of room for cost savings as they learn to do things better - as opposed to more traditional components which have already been pushed to very low price points).

3. GM is pushing hard for government subsidies (and government reps are talking as if the intend to help on that end), and they hope that assistance will help reduce price (with tax breaks going either to consumers or directly to GM)

3. All indications are that the batteries are working very well, and if there are problems, it's likely to be components other than batteries (though I don't know if either of the two competing suppliers have been officially chosen yet - they may try to give them both some business and have them both develop and refine concurrently). Still expected to have a 40 mile all-electric range.

4. Latest rumor is that there may be roof-top solar cells to help charge battery (I'd expect this to be a costly option if it happens).

On an interesting side note, Toyota has been crapping all over this from the start saying that lithium ion batteries aren't ready for prime-time and they'll continue with nickel metal hydride. But recently They've made a major turn and are talking up lithium ion and plug-in hybrids. I'd expect a lithium ion Prius around the same time the Volt really gets going . . . but I also expect GM's design to be more forward thinking.

GM's method of driving all the wheels electrically and using the range-extending engine basically as a generator is a cool idea and gives it more of an ability to go all electric or replace the ICE engine with a fuel cell.

Toyota's got a great position, but I don't expect their next generation Prius to be as big a leap as the Volt. That will help them in terms of offering a more reliable and lower cost Vehicle, but GM's ballsy move could propel them to the technological lead (if they can do their homework and make sure this very novel technology doesn't have too many dramatic, news-making failures.

This is GM's moom-shot, and I'm hoping they can pull it off.

*Nods head to all of the above* :lol:
Heh... you have been reading all the blogs and stuff to. :D
 

DMC-12

It's HarmonioUS, NOT HarmoniYOU.
:D

One thing I forgot to mention: we're supposed to be seeing the poduction version soon.

Jerry, have you heard any speculation as to which show it will be?

Word is.... prod prototype is being worked on... as the GM Board did give them the nod to run with it. If I were to guess... NAIAS... but thats like what... 6-7mos away.. but thats the big show. :shrug: No word yet. But as you said... they still have not hammered out a final deal with either of the two battery potential suppliers yet.
 

WDWFREAK53

Well-Known Member
Word is.... prod prototype is being worked on... as the GM Board did give them the nod to run with it. If I were to guess... NAIAS... but thats like what... 6-7mos away.. but thats the big show. :shrug: No word yet. But as you said... they still have not hammered out a final deal with either of the two battery potential suppliers yet.

The production Camaro is being unveiled at a Camaro/Firebird meet in Indy...so it doesn't "NEED" to be at a big show.

They should've unveiled it on Earth Day.
How about Edison's birthday? :lol:
 

garyhoov

Trophy Husband
Word is.... prod prototype is being worked on... as the GM Board did give them the nod to run with it. If I were to guess... NAIAS... but thats like what... 6-7mos away.. but thats the big show. :shrug: No word yet. But as you said... they still have not hammered out a final deal with either of the two battery potential suppliers yet.

It's got me scratching my head, because somebody at GM indicated it would be soon with emphasis on the "soon", so it seems like it should be within the next few months . . . but I'd expect it to be one of the big US shows . . . which won't be for a while.:shrug:
 

DMC-12

It's HarmonioUS, NOT HarmoniYOU.
It's got me scratching my head, because somebody at GM indicated it would be soon with emphasis on the "soon", so it seems like it should be within the next few months . . . but I'd expect it to be one of the big US shows . . . which won't be for a while.:shrug:

Ditto. Its been pretty hush hush... with not a whole lot of leaks on this. :( *pouts* :lol:
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
how many American's buy 40k Chevy's?

I applaud them for pushing forward - but 40 mile off-gas range? How many years in development?

Is someone like Telsa that much more nimble then the American Giants? Why not get some low volume experimental cars out there...

50mpg on generator? We basically have diesels that can do that

Here is a great story on the car and GM - http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200807/general-motors
 

WDWFREAK53

Well-Known Member
how many American's buy 40k Chevy's?

I applaud them for pushing forward - but 40 mile off-gas range? How many years in development?

Is someone like Telsa that much more nimble then the American Giants? Why not get some low volume experimental cars out there...

50mpg on generator? We basically have diesels that can do that

Here is a great story on the car and GM - http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200807/general-motors

From what I remember reading, the time was spent moreso on the battery than the actual ICE. I drive a $40K Chevy. There are plenty of Corvettes, Suburbans, Tahoes, etc. on the road. Most of those cost more than $40K.

Remember, people spend more money on Hybrids too...and the average hybrid won't be cost effective until about 7 years after purchase. Speed this up and I can DEFINITELY see people willing to pay it.

Not including the rise in electricity (which, when talking about the price of fuel, is practically non-existant).

Here is my typical work day.

I live 30 miles from work...so a total of 60 miles per day.
If 40 of those are using no gas at all, I'm using 20 miles/day.
20X5 (work week, is 100 miles per week). At 40 miles/gallon, you are now talking about 2.5 gallons of gas...at roughly $4.10 a gallon. I can live with paying $10.25 a week on gas.

Now, take a typical hybrid that gets 45 miles/gallon.
I'm spending $27.33 per week...with, considering what's out there on the market, a car that gets very good gas mileage.

Over the course of 5 years (typical finance term), that's a savings of $4,440.80.

(EDIT: Put it into perspective, if I were to compare it to my vehicle NOW...over 5 years I'd save $13,325.00)
 

DMC-12

It's HarmonioUS, NOT HarmoniYOU.
how many American's buy 40k Chevy's?

I applaud them for pushing forward - but 40 mile off-gas range? How many years in development?

Is someone like Telsa that much more nimble then the American Giants? Why not get some low volume experimental cars out there...

50mpg on generator? We basically have diesels that can do that

Here is a great story on the car and GM - http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200807/general-motors

A) I'm in... and I hope to get one of the first 10k produced. Sure.. I might just be a "beta tester" with the first 10k lol.... but.. I am all for getting away from gas stations. Its worth it to me. :shrug:

B) A 40 mile all electric range means I would never have to fill up again (well... at least no where like I do now, ie: at least once a week -- plus I would only have to "plug-in" once every 2 days)... unless I have to drive up to Wisconsin. Even taking that in accountability.. I would still only have to fill up once every 1.5 or two months with the Volt. But then I would also have the option of E85 [even though I dont like the whole E85 scam... but it is like a buck cheaper a gal here :lol: ]

C) A Tesla is like 2.5X's the cost of what a Volt is predicted to cost. Also... Detroit was too still too busy pumping out ghastly pigs (SUVs & Trucks) to worry about developing an electric alternative at the time. So now... thats bitting them in the ... and now they are finally catching on. :lol:

D) Diesel is about $5.50 a gal at some places around here... no thanks.


I was talking with some friends about all this last night... and if we all start getting PEVs... then something will need to be done to strenghen/boost our power grid. I am all for building more nuke plants... if it gets us off foreign oil.... then I say go for it.

Not that I am getting all 'green' on ya here guys. Trust me... I love hitting 60mph while only still being in 3rd gear :lol: Its just ....we need solutions. I am sick of paying $70 a week to fill up my car. :(
 

garyhoov

Trophy Husband
There are more upstarts trying to make a go of it than I can count. Tesla is the highest profile, and they have funding and a business model that could help them beat the odds and still be aroud in five years.

In addition to Tesla, you have companies like: Phoenix Motorcars, Think, Zap, Aptera, GEM, Miles EV . . . and far too many others for me to remember or list.

Chances are most, if not all of those companies will be gone within 10 years. Over the roughly 30 years I've been reading motorcycle magazines, I've seen more start-ups with great motorcycles come and go than I can even begin to remember. I'd guess there have been at least 40 companies over that time that have shown prototypes and tried to get investors, but just never got it going.

It's very difficult to break into the automotive business even with a lot of money. It typically takes about 5 years to develop a car, and during that time, there's no revenue coming in . . . just money going out the door by the millions.

There are very tough DOT and EPA requirements that need to be met.

And if a company can get enough funding to get all that done, they'll be selling a more expensive, lower quality product with very limited dealer network for sales and service. People generally won't buy cars like that as their only car because they don't know it will start every morning if they need it to, and they won't have a warranty to fall back on.

I'd like to see one of the smaller manufacturers really get off the ground, but chances are the first company to sell 50,000 electric cars and really start making a difference will be someone who is currently a successful car manufacturer with the resources, experience and cash flow required to get something really going.

I love the Tesla . . . but unless I win the lottery, I'll never buy one.

If anyone really wants to spend Tesla money for an electric car, there are companies now who will convert cars to electric.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
From what I remember reading, the time was spent moreso on the battery than the actual ICE. I drive a $40K Chevy. There are plenty of Corvettes, Suburbans, Tahoes, etc. on the road. Most of those cost more than $40K.

But how many people buy 40k chevy CARS? :) Corvettes - which don't even really count as chevy as the the car gets total white glove handling from the rest of the products.

My point was you take a company like Chevy - with resources out the wahzoo - and they can't come up with a product that is that much better then the no-names?

In Europe there are pure electric cars today - they are quite common in Norway - with cars from Think and the Buddy

Everyone is on about commuting - so why is Chevy building such a big car as if its a regular car, but with only commuting performance? Why take the two different aspects and make a car that doesn't fit either market well?

Small electric-only commuting cars are not new. Everytime someone talks about cost savings - they are always talking about commuting. So why aren't we just taking these small commuting cars and making them better? Why did Chevy go the idea of reinventing the wheel rather then improving it.

Remember, people spend more money on Hybrids too...and the average hybrid won't be cost effective until about 7 years after purchase. Speed this up and I can DEFINITELY see people willing to pay it.

Except a hybrid premium is only about 5-7k in many cases... here we are talking a 20k premium.

Over the course of 5 years (typical finance term), that's a savings of $4,440.80.

So you paid 20k dollars to get 4k back. Where can I send you my bank account information... I'll happily help you get that 4k savings today :D

(EDIT: Put it into perspective, if I were to compare it to my vehicle NOW...over 5 years I'd save $13,325.00)


I'll still take the offer... 7k for me.. sweet!
 

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