WDW Taking a Hit Over Gator and Massacre ...

[WDW1974]

I am not buying the mass cancellations. I believe you have had some uptight moms that are complaining and worried and these are the same parents that cry and get mad that there kid is not good enough to play first base because he cannot catch. But they think he is a star.

It is normal to see a dip after bad press look at chipotle. Sales dropped 40 percent but 1000's of people were getting sick.

You may not buy facts, but that's all I sell. My source is quite well-placed and isn't prone to BS, hyperbole or giving me false info so I'll look bad. His/Her record is damn near perfect in these matters. There have been mass cancellations to use your term at the GF and to a lesser extent across property (and likely across Central FL). Let's please not go into the moms and snowflakes BS ... it has validity in many places, but just confuses the discussion here.

As to your point about Chipotle, it's a bad one because their business has been greatly harmed and who knows where they will be two years from now. ... if WDW loses 20% of its business due to the child's death by gator and the mass murder at Pulse, then things are going to be quite dark, indeed. Not hyperbole. Fact.

This is a horrible accident. The nut jobs will use it to bash Disney and cancel vacations. But again these are the people that don't let there kids play outside and think they are all special Hero.

Horrible accident? Absolutely. Foreseeable? Possibly. Preventable? Maybe. ... Disney does deserve bashing for this. No way around it ... I'll explain below.

And as of last night you were not sure you fire Him now you say yes. What changed?

Not a lot. I was leaning in that direction (yes, I have personal issues with the man ... no, they don't play into this at all). But heard a bit more evidence backing up what I thought already.

It's simply the facts as I know them.

Disney has had a known problem with gator encounters with Guests that has increased greatly in the last 20 years due to the explosion in population (not Disney's fault and really a good thing as they were hunted to the brink) and loss of habitat (Disney definitely has some fault here as it builds out as quickly as possible).

Disney has had a silent policy of pretty much ignoring the encounters and NEVER telling Guests that what they were doing was dangerous and illegal. Gators were moved infrequently.

Disney has been quite vocal to CMs who have complained about anything Guests do that that it isn't part of their jobs to dictate company policy. In other words, the dollar signs speak louder than any front liner.

Disney either had to know or should have known that adding over the water accommodations would result in increased chances for gator/human contact.

Disney knew that Guests at the Poly bungalows were feeding gators from the new units causing them to become a clear and present danger to Guests.

Disney refused to place any signs on property warning Guests, many who do not come from areas with gators, of the presence of said animals. No swimming signs mean just that. They don't even mean, 'Don't dip your toes in the water or walk in a foot of water as I have done many times.' They don't mean 'Gators are here! Beware!'

George Kalogridis was aware of most (if not all) of the above. Being the top manager of WDW Resort, it is his role to manage the resort and safety is always No. 1. For whatever reason(s), the ball was dropped and a child is dead.

There is no doubt that Disney is legally liable (no matter how much you think it was the parents fault and, please, take that discussion to another thread). I've talked with a few people who know how these things play out: on the low end the family will walk away with $5 million, high end is about $15 million. I've even been told if they threaten to sue that it could go higher.

Ultimately, George is responsible (you could say Bob or Chappie are, but that's not really true). I don't think he'll lose his job over this, but I do think he should.

No, there is no smoking gun (again, about the only thing some folks here care about). No email where George said ''Ignore any gator issues.'' But there doesn't have to be for him to axed. Most people here would lose a job for far less than a dead child and ignored warning signs on their watch.

 

[WDW1974]

And FYI the jokes were on the jungle cruise today. Both times I rode.

That could be the individual CMs either not knowing they are out of the script or opting to not follow guidelines.

I think everyone is now over reacting. Should they remove it from the state university mascot as well because a accident happened.

Yes, everyone is overreacting. Disney is as well ... but not in the ''Let's make sure this doesn't happen again" way, but rather the ''Let's look like we're doing things'' way.

 

[GoofGoof]

Thought about putting this in my Spirited thread, but I feel it is important enough to not be buried in 200-plus pages. And it isn't specifically about the gators and bad parenting and whether George Kalogridis should be fired (he should), so I'd respectfully ask the mods to not bury this when the inevitable complaints due to who is writing it here come in.

From a trusted and well-placed source:

First, in what has been a very lousy summer (no, I don't care that there were 300 minute waits for Frozenstrom as we all know why that is and what it means) for WDW and O-Town in general, things are about to get worse in the $$$ department:

"The Grand Floridan has seen a huge surge of cancellations and requests to be moved to other resorts. There have also been a larger than normal request of refunds for Guest choosing not to visit at all due to the events on property and off."

Second, the ridiculous (and @WDWFigment wrote a nice blog post on his own site about this) and knee-jerk reaction of WDW in making it seem like gators don't exist in any realm, even fantasy ones are the rule of the day. In other words, who knows whether parade floats or foamheads will ever be allowed to return because one child died in 44 years.

I also forgot somehow that Typhoon Lagoon and Blizzard Beach both have alligators as mascots. One wonders if they'll rip out the fiberglass versions and change the maps because THAT will address the problems, not properly warning Guests these animals are present and properly warning them that they will be subject to fining, trespass and banning if they or their children feed gators.

Playing pretend is always so much better. From the source again:

"Marketing has been reviewing every single piece of collateral and pulling anything that shows or depicts an alligator or crocodile in addition to showing beaches in resort photos and listings as amenities.

Blizzard Beach and Typhoon Lagoon had a whole summer campaign featuring their respected gator mascots that was pulled at the last minute."

If anyone wondered how WDW would handle a crisis, you are now seeing it in full view and it isn't pretty at all.

It has certainly been a bad time for WDW and it's not surprising that some people decide to cancel trips. I still think the shooting would probably be a much bigger deterrent than the gator attack. It's relatively easy to avoid wet areas where gators could be a problem, but the random nature of the mass shooting means it could happen anywhere. I personally wouldn't cancel a trip for either reason but I can understand the thinking.

I don't agree with the over reaction with taking gators out of everything (although I'm OK with removing the JC joke). Aside from the gator character removals and what I hope is a "temporary" fence I think Disney's actions were spot on. They appropriately closed the beach and suspended boat service until they could finish the investigation. I think it was also appropriate to add signs reminding guests of the dangers of gators and snakes and not to feed the animals. The boat service and recreation on the water is back now and the beaches are open at least during the day and will be staffed with CMs. It seems like an appropriate and necessary response by Disney. What would have been a better response?

Edit: never mind, I posted before reading the 11 pages.

 

[WDW1974]

All they care about is mitigating the number of people who would be "offended" that an alligator is in the parade and write about it in the Twitterverse. It's a helluva lot easier to remove Tick Tock out of a parade than it is to actually hold the guest responsible- as usual Disney takes the easiest, cheapest, and knee-jerkiest way to change the narrative. It's a way of doing something without actually doing something.

Yes. It's sorta like giving one million dollars after the massacre (that was committed using a word we can't say here ... it rhymes with 'dones'). As a close associate said to me, ''they gave that amount because it's the least they could give and still sound like they gave a significant amount.''

 

[WDW1974]

Truth is, most of the people complaining about this in the thread would be complaining if they didn't do anything.

Disney cannot win with some folks.

It's not about winning anything. It's about the death of a child and what could have been done to prevent it ... and, sadly, things could have been done and weren't. Disney deserves a black eye ... a lot more than that family deserves to have a dead toddler.

 

[Missymoe4]

"The Grand Floridan has seen a huge surge of cancellations and requests to be moved to other resorts. There have also been a larger than normal request of refunds for Guest choosing not to visit at all due to the events on property and off."

I say let 'em go! I can't wait to enjoy a quieter dip in the pool come a month from now.

 

[IanDLBZF]

It's about the death of a child and what could have been done to prevent it ... and, sadly, things could have been done and weren't. Disney deserves a black eye ... a lot more than that family deserves to have a dead toddler.

Unfortunately, it was an incident that could have been prevented had Disney and/or FL FWC had steps in place to prevent such attacks from happening. Disney deserves to be sued, and Tallahassee needs to take action on this as well

 

[WDW1974]

I hear that the joke is back, which is surprising to me. If so, I assume the other things will return, and in that case, Spirit really has nothing to criticize them over. Well I'm sure he'll find something new, but he can't criticise them over removing gators, because it seems that they aren't. I actually disagree with bringing back the gator joke. Is it really neccesary, can it really do more good than harm? Oh well.

And I doubt a huge number of people are really cancelling their bookings. I'm sure there are more cancellations than normal, but nothing as severe as he's making it sound. Whether it has to do with his sources or not, Spirit typically exaggerates the truth, which I'm sure you've seen by now.

It makes it more captivating, but in reality, it's not as blown up as he and some other Disney fans make it seem. Which is your point.

If you think I am full of feces, then why are you even reading? You're just a newbie who has come in here and been as passive aggressive about my posts as possible until now being full-on aggressive.

I have already explained why I am critical of them. Anyone with half a brain and an ounce of feeling for the family of this boy would get that Disney created an atmosphere where something of this nature was far more possible than it ever should have been.

And I ''typically exaggerate the truth''? That's a back-handed compliment if I ever heard one because at least you admit that what I post is the truth.

Either way, I'm sorta done with you. Have a MAGICal night!

 

[jaklgreen]

What is Disney supposed to do in this situation? A situation that they haven't faced in 44 years? These people are human and I'm sure they have feelings about what happened. I'm sure they are trying to do their best. But let's not let any reason to bash Disney's decision making go by the wayside.

I think that removing the mascot/cartoon gators is an okay response. Do you think that Disney wants people to be reminded of the tragedy while on vacation? I'm sure that when we go a few years without a gator attack that those removed references will return.

I don't think seeing a plastic alligator is going to mean people will automatically think of what happened. Just like every time I get on a plane, I don't think about all of the plane crashes, or when I get on the monorail, the monorail crashes. You can't live your life like that. You would never leave your house if everything reminded you of a tragedy.

 

[mousehockey37]

Unfortunately, it was an incident that could have been prevented had Disney and/or FL FWC had steps in place to prevent such attacks from happening. Disney deserves to be sued, and Tallahassee needs to take action on this as well

I disagree. There is no way to ever guarantee an attack can't or won't take place. Wild animals are wild. There will always be people that cross the line or are just plain stupid and these events with wildlife will happen.

The parents of the child are responsible for watching their kids. They failed in that regard. The swamplands of Florida (whether developed or untouched) are still going to see wildlife inhabit the areas.

 

[WDW1974]

I wonder how people from countries where aggressive wildlife flourish view this attack? I doubt the Brazil tour groups are cancelling over this. They deal with piranha, arapaima, gators, pythons, man-eating catfish, etc... on a daily basis. Hell, look at any episode of "River Monsters" and you have to wonder how people live near water at all.

Do you know where 80% of WDW's Guests come from? I'll give you a hint it starts with a U and ends with an A.
Do you know the No. 3 (formerly the No. 2) market of WDW is? It starts with a U and ends with a K and is full of people wearing socks with sandals and not knowing what sunblock is.

My only point is the majority of WDW Guests (some would say VAST majority) come from places where freshwater doesn't equate with dangerous critters.

 

[gmajew]

As to your point about Chipotle, it's a bad one because their business has been greatly harmed and who knows where they will be two years from now. ... if WDW loses 20% of its business due to the child's death by gator and the mass murder at Pulse, then things are going to be quite dark, indeed. Not hyperbole. Fact

.

I think it is important to wait a few weeks before we say what the outcome will be. As I stated in my post the people flipping out right now are more then likely the people that are the crazy ones. Let's see what happens over the next three month to see if this has any effect long term.

No, there is no smoking gun (again, about the only thing some folks here care about). No email where George said ''Ignore any gator issues.'' But there doesn't have to be for him to axed. Most people here would lose a job for far less than a dead child and ignored warning signs on their watch

I agree he should lose his job but I don't think it comes to just him. I don't blame Disney for building the bungalows as the issues it was how they were managed. And if they have real proof people were feeding and not turning them in then they have an issue.

I think 6-7 top people at wdw need to be fired for this just to show they mean business. Sucks but that is how I would do it in my company. Got to show changes are more then just show.

 

[GoofGoof]

Unfortunately, it was an incident that could have been prevented had Disney and/or FL FWC had steps in place to prevent such attacks from happening. Disney deserves to be sued, and Tallahassee needs to take action on this as well

There are a few very simple things that could and should have been done:

1. Post real warning signs, not just no swimming
2. Educate guests on not feeding wild animals, let them know it's forbidden and enforce the rules against it.

Hindsight is 20/20 so it's pretty obvious to most people that these things should have been done. At least these items are being addressed now.

The idea of either closing the beaches at night or adding a fence would not have gone over well with most people here before this tragedy happened. We would have heard a lot of complants that gator attacks are so rare that they don't need to do this. I still hope the fence is temporary but I don't know if they will remove it now that it's up.

 

[gmajew]

That could be the individual CMs either not knowing they are out of the script or opting to not follow guidelines.



Yes, everyone is overreacting. Disney is as well ... but not in the ''Let's make sure this doesn't happen again" way, but rather the ''Let's look like we're doing things'' way.

They have to do both here make real changes and make a show at what we are doing. The fence going up around beach they had to do had to. Had to show they cared ASAP now real changes can take place.

 

[WDW1974]

Here's the money question...have they suspended the Wild Africa Trek tours with the in Disney's own words "shaky rope bridge" over the crocodiles?

I very much doubt it. Would have been reported here ...

 

[Pacifilantic]

Who makes design decisions about such things as the creation of overwater bungalows and appearance of the waterfront and signage? Do these decisions come out of Burbank? California is another world entirely from Central Florida. I know they have to meet federal and
Florida state regulations to build, but I wonder how many uniquely Florida challenges (like Guest/wildlife interaction) they ignore or don't take seriously.

 

[ChrisFL]

Universal does have some relevance to this. Back when the Twister attraction was about to open, there were 6 or 7 tornadoes that hit the Central Florida area killing several people. Universal decided to delay the opening of the attraction by two months because of this and faced no public backlash for that decision from what I can tell.

I think Disney can do the same, wait about 2 months and then bring the gator/croc themed stuff back

 

[shortstop]

I see a lot of people splitting hairs here. The issue isn't whether or not removing the gator float from the Water Parade was an overreaction (it was, but that's besides the point). The issue is Georgie K and years of careless management of WDW as a whole that led to this. Rather than being active in trying to avoid unfortunate situations like this, they have ludicrously decided that the proper way to handle it is to go to absurd lengths to avoid offending people who had nothing to do with the event rather than waking up, getting their heads in the right places, and realizing they put themselves in this mess.

 

[WDW1974]

I think you are discounting the psychological baggage that comes with parents and alligators right now. Disney's response had to be strong, and of course they are going to err on the side of being too strong. Parents with young kids don't want to see a gator chomping in an electrical parade on Seven Seas Lagoon right now. I respect Mr. Bricker a great deal, but I don't believe he is a parent. He can't put himself in their shoes. Are you a parent? Based on the flip comment quoted above, I just respectfully think you aren't understanding how close to home this even was for parents who take their young kids to Disney. I hope the playful gator references return, but in time. It's just too soon right now and I'm glad Disney is reacting in the way they are.

No, I do get that this is really tugging on parents. And I get that. You don't need to be a parent to understand what kind of horror it would be to lose a child like this. ... But I also wonder how many children have died in the USA of gun violence in the last nine days ... how many have died in car accidents ... how many have drowned?

I think some of this horror is the sensational nature of it ... But the reality is your child is far more likely to die in one of the ways listed above or many other examples I could give. This was a fluke. But a fluke that was allowed to happen because of Disney's hands-off policy with Guests who are well ... -holes.

 

[WDW1974]

I think the media is making this a bigger case then it truly is. I doubt very much that there has been a surge in cancellations over the Gator attack. You can walk around the Grand Floridian right now and it looks just as busy as it normally does with people coming and going from the different building and pool area. I will say attendance has been down this spring/summer but that is due to a decrease in foreign travel and the continuing price increases.

I do love when people use anecdotal 'evidence' of what they see at one point in time to extrapolate big picture conclusions. It isn't scientific ... but doesn't stop people.