WDW literally falling apart

celluloid

Well-Known Member
Disney’s show designers don’t do things like figure out waterproofing details, which is the sort of thing properly fixing the door and windows would involve. Their goal is the show, they’re going to push the architect to not do something clunky, easy and fast like just drop down some sort of mismatched coping that doesn’t maintain the look of the building.

I said designers. You added show for some reason You are the one presuming incredibly incorrectly that Disney only has shown people on Imagineering and other teams. Imagineering has many roles and not all are just show primary based.

Now your stances make less sense.

It takes so long because they have to design it like a scaled down asthetic style of the Max Factor building. Disney does not do this though. That is all Disney's designers so?

Now you make it sound like the architects can't design what the Imagineers want to keep the show of the building and that could be slowing the process down? That is what is taking so long. That's not realistic and you are just presuming that.
You are now seemingly thinking architects are not smart enough handle form and function? That IS what architects can handle all.the time.

That's not the way it works.
 
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Andrew25

Well-Known Member
That facade doorframe is not the only issue...
  • There's a bit of rock work on Big Thunder covered by fabric... wonder if an ECV crashed into it?
  • Portions of the Tower of Terror facade are covered by fabric (easily seen by the queue)... I guess a guest brought a ramp and raced down Sunset Blvd to make that damage?
  • Everest's facade is literally crumbling/cracks are easily visible
  • Dinosaur...? Does anyone want to defend that?
  • Buzz Lightyear... basically every other vehicle is covered at this point
 

James Alucobond

Well-Known Member
So I still don't get why we would defend them taking a year to repair a decorative door frame...
I recommend reading what has been written. You insist on minimizing the issue by calling it “decorative” when it has been discussed at length that the issue is not superficial.
That facade doorframe is not the only issue...
Yet it is the sole focus of this topic.
 

MagicRat

Well-Known Member
I recommend reading what has been written. You insist on minimizing the issue by calling it “decorative” when it has been discussed at length that the issue is not superficial.

Yet it is the sole focus of this topic.
Decorative or Structural it does not matter concerning the timeframe on this type of project. It is MINIMAL, the problem again is a lack of focus to correct the matter. That problem is poor management. The spark to get the job done is management contacting the design team (architect and structural engineer) to make a design based on their idea and a contractor to demo and install. This is not difficult stuff just a general practice for commercial construction.

Now if you want to say a sinkhole is underneath it, than that’s a different problem but potted plants wouldn’t be the only barrier.
 

Bocabear

Well-Known Member
I recommend reading what has been written. You insist on minimizing the issue by calling it “decorative” when it has been discussed at length that the issue is not superficial.

Yet it is the sole focus of this topic.
So you are saying the broken decorative doorframe surround that fell off the building is not merely decorative? or superficial? It is a major structural detail...but then, no it is not structural? What is it then? It is a decorative surround on a practical doorframe. It is not holding the building up...It might be a complex repair, but I cannot imagine it is so complicated and proprietary that it will take most of a year to put back in place... And I did read what has been written, and I still don't get how an entire office building can be built in the time it is taking them to repair a decorative element on a building at ground level... Are they having a scenic shop re-manufacture the original piece that was there? All I keep hearing is that the furring strip failed... and yes that happens, and they repair them... Maybe the subcontractor is busy building a Wendy's on I-Drive... The way you are defending it, you clearly know exactly what the problem is then... but I have not heard anything that is an answer other than it is very complicated, it is not just decorative, it is not structural... it is not EIFS, It is not a painted finish, it is not whatever anyone might think it is... but it is very very complex...
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I said designers. You added show for some reason You are the one presuming incredibly incorrectly that Disney only has shown people on Imagineering and other teams. Imagineering has many roles and not all are just show primary based.

Now your stances make less sense.

It takes so long because they have to design it like a scaled down asthetic style of the Max Factor building. Disney does not do this though. That is all Disney's designers so?

Now you make it sound like the architects can't design what the Imagineers want to keep the show of the building and that could be slowing the process down? That is what is taking so long. That's not realistic and you are just presuming that.
You are now seemingly thinking architects are not smart enough handle form and function? That IS what architects can handle all.the time.

That's not the way it works.
Yes, Imagineering has many roles including architects and engineers, but their role is primarily as a manager of others. The actual construction drawings are done by third parties. Go look at the drawings of Cosmic Rewind that leaked and you'll see that they're from PGAV Destinations. Go look at the various water management permits and again you'll see various different firms listed as the engineers of record.

Once again, I am not assuming about process.

The photos from shortly after the incident show damage to multiple exterior finish panels well above the area where an ECV would hit the wall. A panel above the door broke off and a wall sconce, including its junction box embedded in concrete, was also ripped off from the building. This is significantly more extensive damage than should be caused by an impact. Something underneath which connected multiple panels failed, the furring and/or sheathing (it's a bit difficult to understand the exact assembly from the photos) which connected the panels to the concrete column. An incredibly common cause of such issues is water intrusion which over the course of years eats away at what attaches the exterior finish to the larger wall assembly.

When this happens you need to first figure out the extent and the source of the problem. The reason the problem seemed to appear suddenly is because it was concealed and occurred slowly over time. A similar level of damage could be elsewhere but remains concealed. New damage could also be occurring and since you're going to be doing work its usually best to be proactive and address not only areas where damage has occurred but also where it might still occur in the future.

Part of the reason damage can extend beyond the area that failed is because water can move in weird ways. While water generally wants to go down it can also move along and under surfaces. Put your hand palm down under the faucet and your palm won't remain dry because the water will move along your palm before falling into the sink. This can and does happen in buildings as well and it's a big part of what makes waterproofing a challenge. We can't just shrink wrap buildings with a single membrane, the waterproofing is composed of a bunch of different components that have to overlap a certain way to ensure the water moves out and away from the building. That means you can't just add something right on to an existing building because you'll end up with exposed edges that would allow water intrusion, you need to get part of what is new/replaced under what is already there.

Now yes, there are some rather typical details that are used with certain materials and assemblies. But they have also changed over time, how things are done now are not the same as the were in the mid-to-late 80s. So now you may be mixing systems and methods in ways they have not been intended to mix. The danger though of typical details is that they are generic which means the more unique a design the less relevant they can become.

That is where show design and specifically the Max Factor Building come into play. The design of the Max Factor Building door and windows that served as the inspiration for these doors and windows are absolutely, 100% not a typical design. The wall panels on both go all the way to the top of their respective portals, there is no roof element above them. Now yes, there are lots of buildings that have walls that go all the way up but if you look at them you'll see that there is some sort of cap (coping) that sits on top. In contemporary construction this is typically a piece of metal that extends over the wall and is flanged to prevent water from moving up into the wall. Many times when you just see a wall you have a parapet condition where the wall extends above the roof and it needs to extend at least several inches (usually want 8" - 10" minimum, maybe down to 6") above the roof to allow for things like flashing that you might need to help protect the corner where the roof meets the wall. Just in general you space space for overlapping and protect because it increase how far water has to travel if it does get through. Based on the photos the "roof" for lack of a better term was the same or similar material as the wall panels, so it was not some sort of specific roofing product or a roofing membrane. The wall panels also do not appear to appreciably extend beyond the roof. There are plenty of walls that end right at the roof, but that's going to use something like a metal drip edge as well as overlapping of the roof membranes. It can also be sort of faked and have the roof assembly sit atop the bulk of the wall assembly with only the finish layer extending to the top. What you don't see is something like a stucco wall turning to become a stucco roof. You do kind of see it with things like rock work walls where the rocks go up and over but again, they tend to be faked and placed on a parapet so that the rock work itself is sort of up and over that joint.

There are plenty of easy and quick way to get something built, but the chances of them matching the particular aesthetic of the Max Factor Building is low. You could just accept placing metal caps on top but would that really look great? So then you have to deal with that joint that faces up and making sure water either doesn't work its way down through the joint again or if it does it is directed back out elsewhere without causing damage. Maybe something within with a better drainage plane is figured out. Maybe custom single pieces can be manufactured that make the turn without a joint. Whatever it is, it also needs to be done in a way that it still properly connects with the rest of the building and doesn't create a future problem. The windows, give their similar design and also being blocked off, also seem to be part of this which means a similar but slightly different design needs to be developed for them as well. The look isn't also at the roof, it also turns and becomes the corner joint, so your two new designs are not four as the go from being a roof joint that looks one way to a corner that looks the same. And of course, this is still a functioning building so the design needs to minimize disruption to Keystone Clothiers as much as possible.

That's all assuming rather straightforward, typical issues. Repairs and renovations are notorious for surprises. There's nothing quite like ripping open a wall or digging a hole only to find something you weren't expecting. Then there are also just the realities of the world. While large facilities usually have agreements with architects and engineers to be able to deal with such issues on short notice they're not on-call like a direct employee who is expected to be available and waiting. They have other work and while Disney is in the position to incentivize their work as a priority (pay more) budgets are also a legitimate concern especially amongst fans concerned about Disney's recent performance. Even paying a premium for services, this wouldn't be a big project in terms of fees so even if being given priority the schedule is not going to be completely cleared to focus just on this one project. Elsewhere getting a contractor to be available could also be an issue but that should be less of an excuse for Disney since they do have Buena Vista. There's also just a lot boilerplate sort of stuff that has to go into construction drawing sets required by building departments and the state which can be an obnoxious time suck relative to the scope of work. Then just getting the drawings reviewed for permit can easily be at least a month. And there's also still the material supply factor. While material shortages are not as bad as they were a couple of years ago, there are still certain things that have long lead times and then random things suddenly being hard to find. I don't suspect that would be a major factor except for the wall panels themselves being custom panels. Lastly, weather is also something that has to be considered and it may not be best to try and deal with water intrusion while its raining a lot.

Is that definitely what happened? Not certain, but it is something that happens with enough regularity to be be a reasonable assumption based on the photos. Right now, we still remain in the reasonable timeframe for the type of work described above. Something caused extensive damage that could have seriously injured someone. Things should not just be put back as they were nor should something new be rushed just to be done with it. Is this FAM's top priority, unlikely. Are there lots of things Disney has bungled and not even bothered with? Absolutely. Is it possible that Disney is doing nothing about this situation? Yes, but we don't actually have evidence for that beyond people just saying it should be done.
 
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Bocabear

Well-Known Member
Yes, Imagineering has many roles including architects and engineers, but their role is primarily as a manager of others. The actual construction drawings are done by third parties. Go look at the drawings of Cosmic Rewind that leaked and you'll see that they're from PGAV Destinations. Go look at the various water management permits and again you'll see various different firms listed as the engineers of record.

Once again, I am not assuming about process.

The photos from shortly after the incident show damage to multiple exterior finish panels well above the area where an ECV would hit the wall. A panel above the door broke off and a wall sconce, including its junction box embedded in concrete, was also ripped off from the building. This is significantly more extensive damage than should be caused by an impact. Something underneath which connected multiple panels failed, the furring and/or sheathing (it's a bit difficult to understand the exact assembly from the photos) which connected the panels to the concrete column. An incredibly common cause of such issues is water intrusion which over the course of years eats away at what attaches the exterior finish to the larger wall assembly.

When this happens you need to first figure out the extent and the source of the problem. The reason the problem seemed to appear suddenly is because it was concealed and occurred slowly over time. A similar level of damage could be elsewhere but remains concealed. New damage could also be occurring and since you're going to be doing work its usually best to be proactive and address not only areas where damage has occurred but also where it might still occur in the future.

Part of the reason damage can extend beyond the area that failed is because water can move in weird ways. While water generally wants to go down it can also move along and under surfaces. Put your hand palm down under the faucet and your palm won't remain dry because the water will move along your palm before falling into the sink. This can and does happen in buildings as well and it's a big part of what makes waterproofing a challenge. We can't just shrink wrap buildings with a single membrane, the waterproofing is composed of a bunch of different components that have to overlap a certain way to ensure the water moves out and away from the building. That means you can't just add something right on to an existing building because you'll end up with exposed edges that would allow water intrusion, you need to get part of what is new/replaced under what is already there.

Now yes, there are some rather typical details that are used with certain materials and assemblies. But they have also changed over time, how things are done now are not the same as the were in the mid-to-late 80s. So now you may be mixing systems and methods in ways they have not been intended to mix. The danger though of typical details is that they are generic which means the more unique a design the less relevant they can become.

That is where show design and specifically the Max Factor Building come into play. The design of the Max Factor Building door and windows that served as the inspiration for these doors and windows are absolutely, 100% not a typical design. The wall panels on both go all the way to the top of their respective portals, there is no roof element above them. Now yes, there are lots of buildings that have walls that go all the way up but if you look at them you'll see that there is some sort of cap (coping) that sits on top. In contemporary construction this is typically a piece of metal that extends over the wall and is flanged to prevent water from moving up into the wall. Many times when you just see a wall you have a parapet condition where the wall extends above the roof and it needs to extend at least several inches (usually want 8" - 10" minimum, maybe down to 6") above the roof to allow for things like flashing that you might need to help protect the corner where the roof meets the wall. Just in general you space space for overlapping and protect because it increase how far water has to travel if it does get through. Based on the photos the "roof" for lack of a better term was the same or similar material as the wall panels, so it was not some sort of specific roofing product or a roofing membrane. The wall panels also do not appear to appreciably extend beyond the roof. There are plenty of walls that end right at the roof, but that's going to use something like a metal drip edge as well as overlapping of the roof membranes. It can also be sort of faked and have the roof assembly sit atop the bulk of the wall assembly with only the finish layer extending to the top. What you don't see is something like a stucco wall turning to become a stucco roof. You do kind of see it with things like rock work walls where the rocks go up and over but again, they tend to be faked and placed on a parapet so that the rock work itself is sort of up and over that joint.

There are plenty of easy and quick way to get something built, but the chances of them matching the particular aesthetic of the Max Factor Building is low. You could just accept placing metal caps on top but would that really look great? So then you have to deal with that joint that faces up and making sure water either doesn't work its way down through the joint again or if it does it is directed back out elsewhere without causing damage. Maybe something within with a better drainage plane is figured out. Maybe custom single pieces can be manufactured that make the turn without a joint. Whatever it is, it also needs to be done in a way that it still properly connects with the rest of the building and doesn't create a future problem. The windows, give their similar design and also being blocked off, also seem to be part of this which means a similar but slightly different design needs to be developed for them as well. The look isn't also at the roof, it also turns and becomes the corner joint, so your two new designs are not four as the go from being a roof joint that looks one way to a corner that looks the same. And of course, this is still a functioning building so the design needs to minimize disruption to Keystone Clothiers as much as possible.

That's all assuming rather straightforward, typical issues. Repairs and renovations are notorious for surprises. There's nothing quite like ripping open a wall or digging a hole only to find something you weren't expecting. Then there are also just the realities of the world. While large facilities usually have agreements with architects and engineers to be able to deal with such issues on short notice they're not on-call like a direct employee who is expected to be available and waiting. They have other work and while Disney is in the position to incentivize their work as a priority (pay more) budgets are also a legitimate concern especially amongst fans concerned about Disney's recent performance. Even paying a premium for services, this wouldn't be a big project in terms of fees so even if being given priority the schedule is not going to be completely cleared to focus just on this one project. Elsewhere getting a contractor to be available could also be an issue but that should be less of an excuse for Disney since they do have Buena Vista. There's also just a lot boilerplate sort of stuff that has to go into construction drawing sets required by building departments and the state which can be an obnoxious time suck relative to the scope of work. Then just getting the drawings reviewed for permit can easily be at least a month. And there's also still the material supply factor. While material shortages are not as bad as they were a couple of years ago, there are still certain things that have long lead times and then random things suddenly being hard to find. I don't suspect that would be a major factor except for the wall panels themselves being custom panels. Lastly, weather is also something that has to be considered and it may not be best to try and deal with water intrusion while its raining a lot.

Is that definitely what happened? Not certain, but it is something that happens with enough regularity to be be a reasonable assumption based on the photos. Right now, we still remain in the reasonable timeframe for the type of work described above. Something caused extensive damage that could have seriously injured someone. Things should not just be put back as they were nor should something new be rushed just to be done with it. Is this FAM's top priority, unlikely. Are there lots of things Disney has bungled and not even bothered with? Absolutely. Is it possible that Disney is doing nothing about this situation? Yes, but we don't actually have evidence for that beyond people just saying it should be done.

Ok so it could be fixed or it could be more difficult or it could be water intrusion to the whole structure and it could be there is no roof over the scenic facade... or it could be a miniscule sinkhole... We get it, Disney should take years to repair any damage to anything in the park because of "reasons" and no one should say anything about it...ever....
 
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Touchdown

Well-Known Member
Slinky Dog, Tower of Terror, and Rock 'n' Roller Coaster are all down at park open this morning.
This is why park hopping restrictions need to end. If I was there on a morning like that after doing Rise, and probably one more ride (TSMM if the line wasn’t long but with slinky it would be so MMRR) I would be checking the app and upon coming to that realization I would want to get out of DHS and go to another park ASAP.
 
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Bocabear

Well-Known Member
Wow you love to get personal... not sure why you are even defending Disney because people notice that repairs are not being made in a timely manner... I never lied about EIFS, I said an EIFS repair could be done quickly...not knowing exactly what the material is... but none of this addresses the point that 9 months later it is still not repaired... You love to accuse people of lying... But you argue the point that it should take huge amounts of time to repair without saying what the material is... You love to write paragraphs and paragraphs about technical details, without actually saying anything...just word salad. So, yeah, I think 9 months should be enough time to figure out how to repair a decorative door surround that fell off a building in a major theme park on the main thoroughfare. or at least address it without a three paragraph excuse of "maybe reasons"...
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Wow you love to get personal... not sure why you are even defending Disney because people notice that repairs are not being made in a timely manner... I never lied about EIFS, I said an EIFS repair could be done quickly...not knowing exactly what the material is... but none of this addresses the point that 9 months later it is still not repaired... You love to accuse people of lying... But you argue the point that it should take huge amounts of time to repair without saying what the material is... You love to write paragraphs and paragraphs about technical details, without actually saying anything...just word salad. So, yeah, I think 9 months should be enough time to figure out how to repair a decorative door surround that fell off a building in a major theme park on the main thoroughfare. or at least address it without a three paragraph excuse of "maybe reasons"...
Now you are changing what you said. You said:
It is dryvit and faux finishes...
That is not a guess because you don’t know. That is a statement of fact and it is not true. If you didn’t really know what it was as you claim now then yes, that is lying. You then tried to claim it was just stucco. Then you accused me of claiming there were structural issues. Now of saying Disney should not be questioned.

The finish material could be one of several things, but that doesn’t really matter beyond procurement. The bigger issue is what occurred underneath the finish panels which you just keep ignoring and waving away as not occurring. You complained that it wasn’t being explain how things were complex gut now you complain that I wrote too many technical details.

You keep claiming it should be done by now but it’s none of the things you have claimed. It is not EIFS. It is not stucco. It is not just a decorative door surround, which doesn’t mean it’s a structural problem because buildings aren’t just structure and decoration. You stuck on this only being an issue of the decorative finishes when the photos clearly show that is not the case.
 

DisAl

Well-Known Member
I would really like to know if these rotten boards have been replaced yet. They are right outside the men's restroom located next to the City Hall in MK. I know these boards had been obviously rotten for two years when I made this photo in 2022. My family is not going back to WDW this year or next, so if you are there take a look and let us know...
DSCN8170.JPG
 

Andrew25

Well-Known Member
I don't understand the need to defend a business that should have fixed the situation by now. I get it, it takes time for large corporations to do things.

Let's assume this is a major structural issue... is the building safe? Are other parts of it in danger of falling/separating? Is the issue contained to this one facade?

Let's assume this is a minor cosmetic issue... why is it taking so long? Lack of maintenance teams? Lack of caring from management and pushing it down their to-do list?

No matter which way you approach this... it's a bad look on Disney's part.
 

James Alucobond

Well-Known Member
I don't understand the need to defend a business that should have fixed the situation by now. I get it, it takes time for large corporations to do things.
Explanation is not defense. There is also a massive post on the last page that speaks to the myriad questions you pose immediately following this statement.
No matter which way you approach this... it's a bad look on Disney's part.
Again, I certainly agree in the context of other inexcusable deferred maintenance around the parks.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I don't understand the need to defend a business that should have fixed the situation by now. I get it, it takes time for large corporations to do things.
It’s not about defending a business. It’s like saying that someone is defending a business if they point out that outdoor rider were closed due to lightning in the immediate area. That doesn’t mean there aren’t upkeep and uptime issues, it just means this time there was something else involved.

Let's assume this is a major structural issue... is the building safe? Are other parts of it in danger of falling/separating? Is the issue contained to this one facade?
Why should we assume this? There is no evidence of a structural issue, much less a major structural issue. There is evidence of concern regarding the display windows but that doesn’t mean the concern is structural.

Let's assume this is a minor cosmetic issue... why is it taking so long? Lack of maintenance teams? Lack of caring from management and pushing it down their to-do list?
Why should we assume this? The photos show more than a cosmetic issue.

No matter which way you approach this... it's a bad look on Disney's part.
Or maybe approach it based on what can be known and not assumptions for which there is either no evidence or evidence against.
 

Andrew25

Well-Known Member
It’s not about defending a business. It’s like saying that someone is defending a business if they point out that outdoor rider were closed due to lightning in the immediate area. That doesn’t mean there aren’t upkeep and uptime issues, it just means this time there was something else involved.


Why should we assume this? There is no evidence of a structural issue, much less a major structural issue. There is evidence of concern regarding the display windows but that doesn’t mean the concern is structural.


Why should we assume this? The photos show more than a cosmetic issue.


Or maybe approach it based on what can be known and not assumptions for which there is either no evidence or evidence against.

I was making a general statement on some folks, who we all know participate in these forums, that tend to find excuses for the company for everything. The original excuse was that an ECV hit the wall resulting in the incident to occur causing cosmetic damage. After weeks of discussion, we realized it was a major issue after no significant changes were made, and the goalposts were moved from an ECV causing it and into some major structural issue that non-engineers won't understand.

I was trying to take a balanced POV by differing between the extremes of the situation being either a major or minor issue.

What is known is that's taken nearly a year now and there's no major sign of work.
 

brettf22

Premium Member
Before my non-profit started a $20M building project two years ago, I also would have railed on how long this repair is taking.

Now that I have gone through two years of RFIs, RCOs, COs, OACs, mock-ups, supply chain issues, subs not showing up, circular finger pointing, minor issues that involve 7 trades, etc. … I have much more, let’s call it, “empathy” for these types of issues.
 

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