News Walt Disney Company plans to spend $17 billion at Walt Disney World over the next ten years

Henry Mystic

Author of "A Manor of Fact"
Interesting you think DisneySea is better themed than DAK. I must admit, I've never been to TDS, but from what I have seen it seems flashier and more filled out, but not more thematically rich than DAK. DAK feels like it's more pretentious in a way, if that makes more sense. Feels like it concerns itself more with intellectual artsy stuff more than TDS. Particularly in that its underlying themes seem clearer albeit sometimes not as well executed (i.e. Dinoland). But again I invite your response because like I said, my knowledge of TDS comes exclusively from the internet.
No contest on the theming front. It's in another realm due to the quantity and the way the lands transition, as it's not just bridges, they flow sort of like how Frontierland goes into Liberty Square, but taken 50 steps further. There isn't anything like it in the world.

That being said, AK does feel richer in a sense, more grounded, or pretentious like you put it for both the Africa and Asia lands.

That tonal difference is worth noting as Animal Kingdom has a more pointed mission statement with man's relationship to nature.

However...

While I love both parks, DisneySea as a park is sooo much more impressive that they aren't really comparable, to be honest. Anyone that can afford to go to Walt Disney World on a near-yearly basis should skip a year or two or three if necessary and go to Tokyo (besides the fact that Japan is one of the most beautiful countries in the world). It is a rite of passage for any theme park fan because it's not only the fact that the service, food, and maintenance, among other things, are all the best of the best, not to mention tickets start at $70 a day with food being inexpensive, but Tokyo DisneySea is a monumental achievement of which it has no rival.

It is one of the greatest pieces of modern art in existence.

There's just not actually much there in the way of quantity at Animal Kingdom unfortunately, which is due to its smaller budget it started out with at around a 4th of what DisneySea had around the same time. I know a lot of people say it's a half-day park, it's most definitely not, but it's also not a multi-day park unless you really like theme parks in my opinion.

They have both had large expansions since their openings with Animal Kingdom adding Kalli River Rapids, Expedition Everest, and Pandora, and Tokyo DisneySea adding Tower of Terror, Toy Story Mania!, Soarin', and replacing StormRider with SeaRider with Fantasy Springs bringing in what is effectively 3 new lands next year.

There are a ton of trees and dead space at AK, which while on theme with the nature aspect, does come at the expense of richly themed areas like Asia and Africa because they didn't have the money to add more lands like those or make them larger back when it first opened.

American Waterfront alone feels far bigger than Africa and Pandora combined. It's definitely not in actual acreage, but that building out cost a crazy amount of money and means it's far more impressive because of it. I'd honestly say DisneySea feels about like 3 Animal Kingdoms given what's there.

If you add up Asia, Africa, and Pandora, to me, they equal about what American Waterfront and Mysterious Island do given their sizes. Then, DisneySea also has Mediterranean Harbor, Lost River Delta, and Arabian Coast, all being elite lands as well. Port Discovery is leagues better than Dinoland still, and once you toss in Mermaid Lagoon and the incoming Fantasy Springs, man, even factoring in Discovery Island and the Oasis, there is just no contest. DisneySea just has so much more, and what it has are all equal or better quality.

I'd honestly say out of the 5 best-themed lands in the world, at least 3 if not 4 of them are at Tokyo DisneySea.

If you focus on rides, AK has like what? 3 headliners with Flight of Passage, Expedition Everest, and Kilimanjaro Safaris, and 1 E-ticket with Dinosaur. The rides they have are so good just so few in quantity making Animal Kingdom in dire need of a couple more E-tickets more than anything on top of a couple C-tickets.

By comparison, DisneySea has two headliners in Indiana Jones and Journey to the Center of the Earth, and 4 E-tickets in Sinbad, Tower of Terror, Toy Story Mania!, and Soaring, with the theming for all of them being exceptional. I will add that DisneySea has easily the best ride line-up for any Disney non-castle park, however, it isn't out of this world, but when Fantasy Springs opens, I expect it to be, as it's expected to add two headliners with Neverland and Arendelle on top of a couple C-tickets.

Now, thematically speaking is what this conversation is about, as DisneySea still can't compete with Disneyland Park on rides (or even Islands of Adventure and Universal Studios Japan) so as a complete experience it's actually comparable to Disneyland Park for me, but the theming, the theming of DisneySea can't be understated.

Yes, Animal Kingdom's trails are excellent and unique to the park, but DisneySea's lands themselves have so much more sprawling depth to them that they're practically experiences like that in of themselves. Not to mention that Fortress Explorations and other walkthroughs do exist and shows like Big Band Beat (among others) easily make up for the Festival of the Lion King and AK's other entertainment offerings.

I'm glad both parks are on this planet as they feel entirely different and I love them both, but it's sort of like comparing Disneyland Park to Magic Kingdom in that there's no comparison if we're trying to gauge that. It is DisneySea way up here, Animal Kingdom 100 feet below, and every other park in the world 200 feet below that in terms of thematic consistency and theming itself.

The sheer magnitude of the lands, fully built out, is mindblowing in person. Mysterious Island is just so inspiring, and then by the time you wander through the caverns in the rockwork you are convinced it’s a real place. The entire experience builds up to Journey to the Center of the Earth, which to me, is one of the most realistic attractions at any theme park despite it being stunted by its relatively short length. And not to mention, every restaurant in the park has theming that is so unearthly impressive including the land's Vulcania. As good as Pandora or Diagon Alley or even Cars Land are, and Galaxy's Edge and Hogsmeade too, and toss in Africa and Asia for good measure, this land genuinely transports you in a way like no other.
1682318123909.png


Themed to the turn of the century New York, theming just the ground level wasn't enough in American Waterfront! They integrated the land with an elevated Electric Railway so ALL the buildings it faces have theming that goes up to it multiple stories higher than would otherwise be needed.

The area that reminds me of this is sitting at Harambe Market in Animal Kingdom with the Wildlife Express Train going by being surrounded with ridiculously impressive theming. Both are excellent places, but DisneySea takes it a massive step further.

Again, I think Animal Kingdom is the second-best theme park in the world, but it just cannot compare with the magnitude that DisneySea offers. But man, not only is this land gigantic, the little details like sewers spewing fake steam, or posters like Harambe has at AK telling of a place that's lived-in is crazy. It's absolutely on AK's level just so much larger than anything it has. Perhaps not as rich in terms of authenticity due to the steady hand of Joe Rhode (though I can't say that for sure), but the whole park is sort of a romanticized take on the world's ports of call, so they're tonally a bit different experiences. Though, the highlights are both equal in quality and dare I say better at DisneySea. There's just so much more at DisneySea.
1682318186728.png


It also happens to be my favorite land in the world.
1682318219573.png


And the park is just seemingly endless. There's always something to explore with what basically amounts to lands within lands. Plus, toss in all of the kinetic energy by having boats, the electric railway, and vehicles throughout the park!
1682318304945.png

1682318287289.png

1682318276843.png


The entry land, Mediterranean Harbor, has 3 sections that are different parts of Italy from Tuscany to of course Venice:
1682318360144.png


Here's the Tuscany section with Soarin' as its marquee attraction. This is about only half of that section.

I just love the way the park uses walkways at various heights. They add so much to the design of the park.
1682318786679.png


And the main part of the land with a breathtaking view of the harbor with Mysterious Island looming in the distance with Fortress Explorations and the best theme park restaurant in the world, Magellan's, in front of it! I assume this photo was taken from the in-park resort, Hotel MiraCosta.
1682321134891.png


I didn't even include photos of Lost River Delta, Port Discovery, Mermaid Lagoon, or the Cape Cod and the port areas of American Waterfront, but all of them are on AK's peak level outside of Mermaid Lagoon, which is still better than Dinoland.

And to top it all off, if that wasn't impressive enough, they were like "Why don't we integrate it with the ocean itself!"
1682318047462.png


So yeah, I think it's better. 😅
 
Last edited:

BlakeW39

Well-Known Member
It really depends on how much Disney would offer for the characters with less presence at Universal. They're not going to budge on the likes of Spidey, Hulk, Cap or the X-Men (for now?). But Black Panther & especially Daredevil (an easter egg about his law office) have such a small presence, I could see Universal selling them for the right price.

Dr Strange seems to be good to go unless he has veeeery weird loophole. Hollywood Studios had a meet & greet with him back in 2016. He's also been in one of their nightime shows too.

The Avengers clause is a bit weird too. Moon Knight was an Avenger in the 80s but Disney has promos in DHS last year for his show, so I imagine he's fair game. IDK how he slipped through but I'm happy if he did.

You're definitely selling me on how they can implement Marvel into Magic Kingdom. I just hope Disney would put this much thought into it, if they were to do that.

It's also worth noting that superhero comic books were entrenching themselves in American culture at the exact same time as Walt Disney was, with Superman being created the same year as Snow White, and Stan Lee creating his Silver Age Marvel characters during the same decade or so as Walt Disney was creating his silver age animated films. So, suffice to say I think superheroes fit seemlessly into the romanticized Americana of the MK. Sadly, I do not think Bob understands thematic direction or theme parks as an art form and I couldn't see modern Disney pulling off a good Marvel land at MK. It would probably just be another "immersive" IP land in the vein of SW:GE.
 

James Alucobond

Well-Known Member
While I think he does understand it, I truly believe he just doesn't care. None of the executives care about thematic integrity. As long as the gates turn, who cares, is the attitude at Disney right now.
I'm not sure they don't care. Right or wrong, I think there's just a mindset that the power of the brand is bound up in IP and that immersive facsimiles of IP are superior to the generic lands of old. The success of things like the Wizarding World has only strengthened this belief.
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure they don't care. Right or wrong, I think there's just a mindset that the power of the brand is bound up in IP and that immersive facsimiles of IP are superior to the generic lands of old. The success of things like the Wizarding World has only strengthened this belief.
That's part of it. From what some hear have said, many in upper management don't understand theme parks and think they are for Carnies.
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure they don't care. Right or wrong, I think there's just a mindset that the power of the brand is bound up in IP and that immersive facsimiles of IP are superior to the generic lands of old. The success of things like the Wizarding World has only strengthened this belief.
I'd still call that not caring. IP isn't the issue in my opinion. It's where they put them and how they use them that is the problem. Disney will drop an IP into an area with very little regard to if it fits or makes any sense. Wizarding world was everything that a star wars fan would have wanted out of an IP land. Yet galaxys edge while does look great, falls short. Because they don't care. The star wars name was good enough. We don't need the droids or a restaurant, or another attraction... People will just show up because, DISNEY!
 

BlakeW39

Well-Known Member
No contest on the theming front. It's in another realm due to the quantity and the way the lands transition, as it's not just bridges, they flow sort of like how Frontierland goes into Liberty Square, but taken 50 steps further. There isn't anything like it in the world.

That being said, AK does feel richer in a sense, more grounded, or pretentious like you put it for both the Africa and Asia lands.

That tonal difference is worth noting as Animal Kingdom has a more pointed mission statement with man's relationship to nature.

However...

While I love both parks, DisneySea as a park is sooo much more impressive that they aren't really comparable, to be honest. Anyone that can afford to go to Walt Disney World on a near-yearly basis should skip a year or two or three if necessary and go to Tokyo (besides the fact that Japan is one of the most beautiful countries in the world). It is a rite of passage for any theme park fan because it's not only the fact that the service, food, and maintenance, among other things, are all the best of the best, not to mention tickets start at $70 a day with food being inexpensive, but Tokyo DisneySea is a monumental achievement of which it has no rival.

It is one of the greatest pieces of modern art in existence.

There's just not actually much there in the way of quantity at Animal Kingdom unfortunately, which is due to its smaller budget it started out with at around a 4th of what DisneySea had around the same time. I know a lot of people say it's a half-day park, it's most definitely not, but it's also not a multi-day park unless you really like theme parks in my opinion.

They have both had large expansions since their openings with Animal Kingdom adding Kalli River Rapids, Expedition Everest, and Pandora, and Tokyo DisneySea adding Tower of Terror, Toy Story Mania!, Soarin', and replacing StormRider with SeaRider with Fantasy Springs bringing in what is effectively 3 new lands next year.

There are a ton of trees and dead space at AK, which while on theme with the nature aspect, does come at the expense of richly themed areas like Asia and Africa because they didn't have the money to add more lands like those or make them larger back when it first opened.

American Waterfront alone feels far bigger than Africa and Pandora combined. It's definitely not in actual acreage, but that building out cost a crazy amount of money and means it's far more impressive because of it. I'd honestly say DisneySea feels about like 3 Animal Kingdoms given what's there.

If you add up Asia, Africa, and Pandora, to me, they equal about what American Waterfront and Mysterious Island do given their sizes. Then, DisneySea also has Mediterranean Harbor, Lost River Delta, and Arabian Coast, all being elite lands as well. Port Discovery is leagues better than Dinoland still, and once you toss in Mermaid Lagoon and the incoming Fantasy Springs, man, even factoring in Discovery Island and the Oasis, there is just no contest. DisneySea just has so much more, and what it has are all equal or better quality.

I'd honestly say out of the 5 best-themed lands in the world, at least 3 if not 4 of them are at Tokyo DisneySea.

If you focus on rides, AK has like what? 3 headliners with Flight of Passage, Expedition Everest, and Kilimanjaro Safaris, and 1 E-ticket with Dinosaur. The rides they have are so good just so few in quantity making Animal Kingdom in dire need of a couple more E-tickets more than anything on top of a couple C-tickets.

By comparison, DisneySea has two headliners in Indiana Jones and Journey to the Center of the Earth, and 4 E-tickets in Sinbad, Tower of Terror, Toy Story Mania!, and Soaring, with the theming for all of them being exceptional. I will add that DisneySea has easily the best ride line-up for any Disney non-castle park, however, it isn't out of this world, but when Fantasy Springs opens, I expect it to be, as it's expected to add two headliners with Neverland and Arendelle on top of a couple C-tickets.

Now, thematically speaking is what this conversation is about, as DisneySea still can't compete with Disneyland Park on rides (or even Islands of Adventure and Universal Studios Japan) so as a complete experience it's actually comparable to Disneyland Park for me, but the theming, the theming of DisneySea can't be understated.

Yes, Animal Kingdom's trails are excellent and unique to the park, but DisneySea's lands themselves have so much more sprawling depth to them that they're practically experiences like that in of themselves. Not to mention that Fortress Explorations and other walkthroughs do exist and shows like Big Band Beat (among others) easily make up for the Festival of the Lion King and AK's other entertainment offerings.

I'm glad both parks are on this planet as they feel entirely different and I love them both, but it's sort of like comparing Disneyland Park to Magic Kingdom in that there's no comparison if we're trying to gauge that. It is DisneySea way up here, Animal Kingdom 100 feet below, and every other park in the world 200 feet below that in terms of thematic consistency and theming itself.

The sheer magnitude of the lands, fully built out, is mindblowing in person. Mysterious Island is just so inspiring, and then by the time you wander through the caverns in the rockwork you are convinced it’s a real place. The entire experience builds up to Journey to the Center of the Earth, which to me, is one of the most realistic attractions at any theme park despite it being stunted by its relatively short length. And not to mention, every restaurant in the park has theming that is so unearthly impressive including the land's Vulcania. As good as Pandora or Diagon Alley or even Cars Land are, and Galaxy's Edge and Hogsmeade too, and toss in Africa and Asia for good measure, this land genuinely transports you in a way like no other.
View attachment 712147

Themed to the turn of the century New York, theming just the ground level wasn't enough in American Waterfront! They integrated the land with an elevated Electric Railway so ALL the buildings it faces have theming that goes up to it multiple stories higher than would otherwise be needed.

The area that reminds me of this is sitting at Harambe Market in Animal Kingdom with the Wildlife Express Train going by being surrounded with ridiculously impressive theming. Both are excellent places, but DisneySea takes it a massive step further.

Again, I think Animal Kingdom is the second-best theme park in the world, but it just cannot compare with the magnitude that DisneySea offers. But man, not only is this land gigantic, the little details like sewers spewing fake steam, or posters like Harambe has at AK telling of a place that's lived-in is crazy. It's absolutely on AK's level just so much larger than anything it has. Perhaps not as rich in terms of authenticity due to the steady hand of Joe Rhode (though I can't say that for sure), but the whole park is sort of a romanticized take on the world's ports of call, so they're tonally a bit different experiences. Though, the highlights are both equal in quality and dare I say better at DisneySea. There's just so much more at DisneySea.
View attachment 712148

It also happens to be my favorite land in the world.
View attachment 712149

And the park is just seemingly endless. There's always something to explore with what basically amounts to lands within lands. Plus, toss in all of the kinetic energy by having boats, the electric railway, and vehicles throughout the park!
View attachment 712152
View attachment 712151
View attachment 712150

The entry land, Mediterranean Harbor, has 3 sections that are different parts of Italy from Tuscany to of course Venice:
View attachment 712153

Here's the Tuscany section with Soarin' as its marquee attraction. This is about only half of that section.

I just love the way the park uses walkways at various heights. They add so much to the design of the park.
View attachment 712154

And the main part of the land with a breathtaking view of the harbor with Mysterious Island looming in the distance with Fortress Explorations and the best theme park restaurant in the world, Magellan's, in front of it! I assume this photo was taken from the in-park resort, Hotel MiraCosta.
View attachment 712156

I didn't even include photos of Lost River Delta, Port Discovery, Mermaid Lagoon, or the Cape Cod and the port areas of American Waterfront, but all of them are on AK's peak level outside of Mermaid Lagoon, which is still better than Dinoland.

And to top it all off, if that wasn't impressive enough, they were like "Why don't we integrate it with the ocean itself!"
View attachment 712145

So yeah, I think it's better. 😅

Yeah you make some solid points. DisneySEA just seems like it's on a much larger scale than DAK. DAK was subjected to many many post-EuroDisneyland Eisner budget cuts.
 

BlakeW39

Well-Known Member
While I think he does understand it, I truly believe he just doesn't care. None of the executives care about thematic integrity. As long as the gates turn, who cares, is the attitude at Disney right now.

Well yes, Bob is a company politician, he sees no value in creativity, despite his fondness for it as a marketing buzzword. He views creating new IPs, especially in the parks but also the live action films division as being an unnecessary risk and inferior to leveraging existing brands and franchises. He may or may not understand thematic cohesion in theme parks... but he definitely doesn't value it based on his choices. And it probably just doesn't take up a lot of space in his mind or influence his decisions greatly.

I'm not sure they don't care. Right or wrong, I think there's just a mindset that the power of the brand is bound up in IP and that immersive facsimiles of IP are superior to the generic lands of old. The success of things like the Wizarding World has only strengthened this belief.

I agree with this as well...but I wouldn't use the term generic to describe non-IP lands. They aren't generic so much as they are original, Harambe is as much a realized space as Batuu, hell probably moreso. It isn't just, generic Africa place. Rather I would say Bob prefers lands that are strung together using a single IP and its brand power, rather than one strung together using shared themes and ideas thought up by imagineering.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
I agree with this as well...but I wouldn't use the term generic to describe non-IP lands. They aren't generic so much as they are original, Harambe is as much a realized space as Batuu, hell probably moreso. It isn't just, generic Africa place. Rather I would say Bob prefers lands that are strung together using a single IP and its brand power, rather than one strung together using shared themes and ideas thought up by imagineering.

Which sadly makes perfect sense as the theme parks' individual identities have been erased, it shows very much that he thinks that way. The parks themselves have become far less individual identities.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
By comparison, DisneySea has two headliners in Indiana Jones and Journey to the Center of the Earth, and 4 E-tickets in Sinbad, Tower of Terror, Toy Story Mania!, and Soaring, with the theming for all of them being exceptional.

I think the Soarin' at DisneySea is a misfire. The theming around it looks fantastic, but then it's just the exact same ride you get in EPCOT, and it's incongruous with that surrounding theming. It needs a different film like Italy or Europe in general. Ideally they'd really go all out and make it historical Europe moving through different time periods via CGI, but it just needs something else.

I also wouldn't consider Toy Story Mania or Soarin' E tickets (I don't think either are impressive enough or have the necessary scale), but I realize Disney probably would classify them as such.

Anyways, none of that is a knock against DisneySea as a whole (the TSM/Soarin' ticket status applies to WDW just as much as DisneySea). I've just always thought that they should have done something different with the DisneySea Soarin'.
 
Last edited:

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
He views creating new IPs, especially in the parks but also the live action films division as being an unnecessary risk and inferior to leveraging existing brands and franchises.
Which is funny considering everything is technically a new ip at one point. He's just lazy and creatively bankrupt unfortunately. The company really isn't equipped with the proper talent right now to come up with anything new on their own. And there is zero chance that happens under Iger anyway. It would take a significant investment, and we all know how Bobby like the thought of that.
 

James Alucobond

Well-Known Member
Which is funny considering everything is technically a new ip at one point. He's just lazy and creatively bankrupt unfortunately. The company really isn't equipped with the proper talent right now to come up with anything new on their own. And there is zero chance that happens under Iger anyway. It would take a significant investment, and we all know how Bobby like the thought of that.
To be fair, Pirates of the Caribbean is really the only hyper-successful IP I can think of that has park origins, so if he's looking for multimedia synergies to fuel the rest of his corporate engine, the parks have not traditionally produced much on that front. Figment and Orange Bird are currently only popular in the context of the parks themselves, and films like Jungle Cruise, Haunted Mansion (2003), Tomorrowland, Country Bear Jamboree, etc. are either mediocre or better off forgotten.
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
Which is funny considering everything is technically a new ip at one point. He's just lazy and creatively bankrupt unfortunately. The company really isn't equipped with the proper talent right now to come up with anything new on their own. And there is zero chance that happens under Iger anyway. It would take a significant investment, and we all know how Bobby like the thought of that.
To be fair I would say Disney fans share a small part of the blame. For one IP is major factor for most guests. Meaning the IP is more important then if the ride is any good. I would bet Guardians wouldn't get the same love if it was based on the Big Bang theory as originally planned.
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
To be fair, Pirates of the Caribbean is really the only hyper-successful IP I can think of that has park origins, so if he's looking for multimedia synergies to fuel the rest of his corporate engine, the parks have not traditionally produced much on that front. Figment and Orange Bird are currently only popular in the context of the parks themselves, and films like Jungle Cruise, Haunted Mansion (2003), Tomorrowland, Country Bear Jamboree, etc. are either mediocre or better off forgotten.
Yes it's a rare thing for something like pirates to happen. And realistically you can thank Depp for that. Jack Sparrow made that franchise. Disney shouldn't be in the mindset of, new ip for the parks, let's turn that into a new film franchise. Or the other way around. That's why I say they are creatively bankrupt. They need to come up with new IPs and let them organically find there way into other parts of the business. The problem is they aren't equipped in any part of the business to be original. They have become a follower, instead of a market leader that everyone looks to.
 

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom