Unmagical summer of '09?

[jakeman]

With apologies to Pastor Niemöller:

When management came for the Skyway,
I remained silent;
I never rode it anyway.

Then they took away Merlin,
I remained silent;
My older kids would never be picked to pull the sword.

Then they came for 20,000 Leagues,
I did not speak out;
It was not my favorite ride.

Then they came for Mr. Toad
I remained silent;
It was a foolish ride anyway.

Then they took away the park hours,
I did not speak out;
I did not go often enough for that to matter.

When they affected my magical experience,
there was no one left to speak out for me.

I also wanted to point out that I am highly offended by this post.

There is nothing that could possibly ever happen at WDW that would ever justify the paralleling of anything related to the atrocities of Nazism in WWII.

Is it really necessary change a poem about the purges and deaths of intellectuals in Europe to loosing a theme park attraction?

 

[CaptainMichael]

If you do go, could you stay off site? Because I'm working Hospitality for my CP and honestly, I don't want to check you in and hear about all the negative things you can point out in the 5 minutes we interact.

Honestly, I mean this.

As a cast member, I would welcome the opportunity to have '74 on my boat, so I could provide a magical experience for him. Happy, pixie dust high guests are easy to please. It's fun to get a challenging guest. All '74 wants is a seamless experience at WDW...the kind he remembers from years past. If you're doing your job correctly (going above and beyond, etc.) I doubt you would have a problem with him...and I do not doubt that you are doing a great job:wave:

When you get past all that though, it's still just a product. Most people can't, or refuse to, see it that way.

And, it's that revelation (that it's just a product) that opens the floodgates of criticism. And in my situation, that's the price I paid for being a cast member. I do my best to create genuine magic because WDW needs it.

I say you should go '74. It'd be nice for you to get a first hand report of the crowds (or lack thereof) instead of the speculation that took place during spring break (by all parties). I'd also like to hear your first hand opinions of recent things. There is still magic to be found (and I know you know this)...you just have to go looking for it.

Have fun and Kungaloosh!

 

[jakeman]

And, it's that revelation (that it's just a product) that opens the floodgates of criticism.

Yes, but criticism without action is just complaining.

 

[CaptainMichael]

Yes, but criticism without action is just complaining.

You'll find disagreement with me on that point.

I fight for my causes.

 

[WDW1974]

I thought you didn't believe in the magic? Just saying.

I don't believe in Disney marketing MAGIC. No. ... sorry.

When they provide me with truly magical vacations or experiences, I do shout it from the rooftops, though ... at least until the neighbors call the cops.

And you know, I happen to be really good at my job and am very much looking forward to greeting people who see the magic, are enthusiastic over there first trip, or their frist trip in 10 years, maybe the trip where they are going to propose or are looking at all the things for wedding, or a child's first trip. You though, are not the kind of person I look forward to seeing, but you won't even know the difference.

Frankly, you sound like someone who has loads to learn about dealing with the general public in a sevice worker capacity if your 'tudes toward me are any indication.

And you would have no idea what kind of person I am in public because when I go to check in to my magical WDW resort (or any hotel/resort worldwide) I tend to go with a nice smile, kind words of small talk and very few (and always noted in advance) requests.

I have seen the typical WDW guest at check in and I am far easier on the CMs I deal with than most of the folks I observe.

You seem to be someone who goes out of habit, not desire.

That's a load of bull--it. Plain and simple.

That may be how you and some others wish to see things, but it has no basis in reality. I love WDW. I love all of the Disney, Busch and Universal parks.

I just don't view them from a pixie-dusted prism that many here do. I do notice if pavement is filthy, grass dying, shops messy, attraction effects inoperable, CMs surly and slovenly, food lousy/overpriced. That doesn't mean I don't see and appreciate all that is great at the place.

It's just that for well over 20 years I visited WDW and could, and would, go through an entire trip without seeing one really bad instance of Disney not adhering to its own standards. And I went more back in the 70s, 80s and 90s then I do these days.

Now, it's not a matter of seeing one issue, it's wondering how many issues I'll see in a day in one park, attraction, area, resort etc ...

These are things that shouldn't be that way NOT according to my own standards, but by Disney's.

So, again, stop blaming me for noticing that Disney isn't running its parks like it once did. They still talk the magical talk, but they don't even lace up the walking shoes.

You have nothing better to do than walk around and criticize. If you are going to do that, why not go stir up trouble elsewhere?

I don't walk around and criticize, but I do observe. As someone who has worked in media (albeit not theme parks) and has been a consultant, I have been paid to do just that: OBSERVE.

Frankly, Disney needs to hire Quality Control execs. People who don't have to worry about say ing off Phil Holmes if they point out problems with MK management.

I just can't see spending all that money and time if I know I am coming back miserable each trip, which is how you come across.

I don't think I have EVER come back miserable from a WDW trip and since I have taken hundreds in my lifetime that's saying a lot. And when I have had trips that weren't all that good, they were usually the result of people (sometimes my own traveling companions, sometimes bad CMs that left a sour taste in my mouth) or weather (something beyond Mickey's control). While the WalMarting of WDW bothers me ... while seeing areas rotting ... or attractions closing that I enjoyed does as well ... I've never come home upset because Horizons is no more or cartoons are overrunning the place.

 

[WDW1974]

Nice. How many ways can one state that he or she can be disappointed with WDW because of its declining quality and standards, but still love to go because he or she grew up with it and because, despite its much lower standards, it's still unique...for now? He never said he hated the place.

No. Because I love the place. I have stated it so many times to be laughable now ... but some individuals don't want to hear it. They don't get you can love a place, but not like the way it is being run, the direction it is taking or certain aspects.

Disney is like religion or politics to some people. All absolutes.

If you criticize, let alone as much as I tend to do, then you are a non-believer and should be ex-communicated.

 

[WDW1974]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WDW1974
?

I think if people are accepting and like anything/everything Disney throws their way just because it is Disney then they are idiots. That again sounds like someone pledging blind faith in a religion or political party and refusing to think for themselves.

...

The bolded part is what I was talking about...

There are people here and everywhere who do really accept and like everything Disney throws at them...and just because they do does not make them an idiot...

Maybe to you..but that is once again your opinion.

So, anyone here who reads that statement...and does accept whatever Disney does will take that as you calling them an idio because well..you are.

OK. I see where you are going.

But do you really accept anything/everything Disney tosses at you without caring whether it has any appeal? Do you not care at all or have any standards of your own for what you like and consider quality and what you don't? If a CM is rude to you, do you brush it off because you are in your happy place? If you get sick after eating at a Disney restaurant does it not bother you because that was magical puke? If you take your child to a dirty restroom at the MK does it not matter because that's a magical filthy toilet she's putting her little behind on? If your resort room isn't properly maintained, do you say who cares I'm spending thousands for this, I'm with Mickey?

I'm not talking about my standards here.

But if you or anyone else simply brushes aside any and every possible issue that could happen at WDW and say 'it doesn't matter because it's Disney', I find that a very dumb (kindest word I can possible use) way of thinking.

Your standards can be very different than mine or anyone's, but you can't really tell me that you simply drop all your real-world standards once you enter Disney property?

 

[WDW1974]

This is my last post for the weekend on this thread. Spent too much time this afternoon on it and now that my well-earned buzz is wearing off, too much now.

Perhaps, there will be another 666 posts tomorrow but I can't keep up and am not wasting a beautiful Sunday in paradise posting the same things.

So ...

Here's what I think is hard for a lot of people to understand...sometimes myself included...although, I think I'm getting an idea of things a little more clearly each time WDW1974 posts...

Glad to hear it. But if you have a question, then by all means feel free to ask. I'd like to think I'm being clear, but considering how quickly I toss these posts out, maybe something is getting lost.

I think it's hard to understand how someone can be so dispappointed in a product (or at least disappointed in the way the product is going...) and yet still want to experience said product. Then...complain about how said product is going downhill and yet still love it. Typically, these things don't go together very well.

I am not disappointed in the overall WDW product. Or any of the Disney parks (or Busch or Uni ones for that matter). I am someone who likes DCA. I am someone who absolutely was charmed by HKDL. Hell, I even enjoy spending half a day at DSP (the least impressive theme park Disney has ever built).

I am disappointed in how WDW management continually takes the magic out of the product, bit by bit, detail by detail, all the while shoving the DISNEY MAGIC marketing hype down my throat.

WDW will always be a very special place for me. EPCOT, DAK, the WL, DAK Lodge, the Contemporary and Poly and FW ... boating on Bay Lake, dining at the California Grill, Victoria and Alberts and Jiko ... so many things are still so wonderful.

But in general WDW is trending downward. I find that troubling. I really don't know how much more I can say. You either get it or you don't.

For example, I can go a year without setting foot in TPFKaTD-MGMS despite having an AP because until my last trip (with TSMM and AIE being new) there wasn't enough there to draw me ... sure I love ToT, but can ride it at DCA (albeit a lesser version), sure I love eating at Brown Derby but price points have gone way up. ... The MK actually can bore me now if I am there more than 4-5 hours and I am not entertaining friends or first-timers. That would never happen before, but so much is stale, so much has disappeared.

But that doesn't diminish all the great things mentioned above.

And it's hard to understand, especially for someone who isn't familiar with WDW's posting style, what it is he really wants to accomplish when he does post because when you look at it face value, it all looks like complaints and that the entire place doesn't make him happy. (Sometimes it's still hard for me to decipher what it is he wants...I can't tell if he wants change from us and us all realizing we're "being Walmarted towards" or whether he's coming on here to get the word out about things that should be different because he knows that Disney does in fact read these forums and he's hoping for a change...or if it's some other reason I'm still not getting.)

I am not sure whether I want to accomplish anything beyond talking about Disney (and its competitors) and stimulating debate. I'd like to encourage critical thinking, especially among the younger generation here who can't possibly relate to a WDW that had only MK, RC, DI, three hotels, a campground, a small quiet shopping village and mile upon mile of forests. That's important because Disney is actively trying to condition them to accept a much lesser product as being Disney quality ... well, it's not.

Yeah, I do know Disney reads these forums. I know certain park execs in particular do read some (not sure whether this one is, but LP.com definitely gets exec action) ... I don't know what change can come out of posts here, but it is possible in certain matters. The fact Disney now has a social media department whose whole purpose is to buddy-up to the fan community (only a decade too late, but this isn't your father's Disney and they aren't on the cutting edge of much these days) tells you they feel that a lot of information can be culled from these sites.

I think the recent D23 fan events can be 100% attributed to feedback from fan forums. What's so funny is I remember being at a Disney media/VIP junket a few years ago and talking about the online communities and having a WDW bigwig tell me 'we'll never credential them to our events, they're just fans' in a very dismissive way.

Forward to 2009 and the AIE premiere party and they invited anyone and everyone from the online community. On the one hand you can say that in these tough times Disney needs any/all attention it can get, but on the other you can easily see how easy it can be to co-opt fanbois who run web sites and are suddenly on the red carpet at a Disney party with all the free food, booze, swag and chances to mingle with celebs (even if most are decidedly B-C List) ... Disney can REALLY throw a party (when it isn't for the general public) and that can be intoxicating to people not used to it.

Are fan sites that are now getting unprecedented access and the goodies that go along with it really going to cover the negative aspects of Disney?

Al Lutz never takes a thing from the Mouse and that's just one reason I really respect the guy.

Did I just go off on a tangent? Kinda ... but you asked what I was trying to accomplish. I guess I am trying to provide balance to all the fanbois and housewives who are now suddenly considered 'media' by Disney because they take pics of DVC construction or put up videos of parades or publish books on Hidden Mickeys or How Your Toddler Can Experience The Magic etc ...

Therefore, as I mentioned before...it's hard for a lot of people to understand how all those things mentioned corrolate. And I think that's why there's a lot of backlash towards 1974. His philosophies about Disney are very juxtaposed and confusing to many, including myself.

Sometimes they are confusing to me too. You do know there is a fine line between love and hate, right?

But again, if you have a specific question, please ask ... and if you don't want to put it out publically, drop me a PM. Trust me, you wouldn't be the first.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

I have no confusion, I do think 74 has on over inflated sense of his own importance, however it does not detract from the accuracy of most of what he posts. His style may be caustic, but then we dont all want to post like insipid school girls.

Im no amateur psychologist so I wont attempt to guess the reasons behind those that support or attack his posts, but this is a discussion board, and it does get my goat that like many obsessives some want to limit discussion if it is remotely critical of the Mouse.

Im going to Disney, but I will be spending longer in the other central Florida attractions. I dont get the "magic" argument, never have, perhaps Im too cynical. However it is a first rate theme park, but as 74 has pointed out the constant chip chip effect on service offerings leads to people like me spending longer off site.

As for being rude and name calling, its a bit too late for me to change that.

So deal with it dough balls.

 

[The Mom]

This why debates, rather than discussions, are not welcome here. They usually turn into arguments between a couple of posters (with one or two cheering them on from the sidelines) with insults and personal attacks thrown in.

It's like two people petting in public. It's interesting and enjoyable for the participants, and a few people get off on watching, but the majority of people are just uncomfortable and either wish they would go elsewhere, or leave the area themselves.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

When you get past all that though, it's still just a product. Most people can't, or refuse to, see it that way.

Yes, but it's of a higher quality. there are many aspects to it. Ravioli is ravioli.:lol::lookaroun:slurp:

I also wanted to point out that I am highly offended by this post.

There is nothing that could possibly ever happen at WDW that would ever justify the paralleling of anything related to the atrocities of Nazism in WWII.

Is it really necessary change a poem about the purges and deaths of intellectuals in Europe to loosing a theme park attraction?

As a student of history and someone who has ties to family in WWII and the holocaust, I was slightly shocked at it to, but I'm pretty sure it's sarcasm...I don't think he really compares a theme park to a hellish event.:shrug: