Unmagical summer of '09?

[WDW1974]

Yeah, until everyone agrees with your "thinking" no doubt. Do you really think Disney adjusted the temperature to "cut guest comfort"?

No.

That's just the result. As well as moldy, dank rooms. And likely carpeting and furnishings needing to be replaced faster.

They did it for two reasons: to SAVE LOTS OF MONEY and to make a PR statement that they're only doing so to go green.

Do you really believe when Bob and Willow and the kids visit that they'll be placed in a room where they can't control the temp in it? What about any other celebrity, politician, actor etc ...

No, of course not. Disney will make sure the controls are open and free.

But anyone else? You can pay $500 a night and have night sweats and a room that smells like my garage because Disney is concerned about environmentality!

When Disney announced they were cutting their "carbon footprint" it follows that AC settings would be moderated. I'm sure Al Gore would approve as AC's are one of the largest power users and easiest way to conserve with by adjusting temperatures. You can't be an advocate for corporations being more socially responsible and then complain when you are "inconvienenced" by those changes. And the more green initiatives are implemented the more you will have to adjust. And playing the "they turned down my AC because of corporate greed" ploy will only fall on deaf ears. Sorry, it just fails as an argument.

First of all, leave Al Gore out of it. If I can't mention the fool who was our prior Prez, I think you need to leave Al out of the discussion.

And I didn't realize i was ''an advocate for corporations being more socially responsible'' ... I need to add that to my resume.

But, no, it doesn't fail as an argument. Not in a hot, humid state like Florida where mold is a huge issue, and can be a health one as well. There are plenty of things Disney can do to help the environment ... not chopping down every tree on property would be a nice starting place ... that doesn't make people uncomfortable.

Off to the beach for dinner and drinks ... ya'll enjoy yourselves!

 

[worldfanatic]

Thanks for the awesome enterntainment all! But 1974's gone to the beach and the thread is now focused on the evils of personal attacks. Yawn!!

As to the original topic, I'm sure all of ZERO minds have been changed.

Those who love WDW completely & unconditionally will still get overtly offended if anything even remotely negative is stated about their favorite place in the world. Even when criticism is well deserved.

Others still think Disney Management is all about making money and assume every single WDW decision is based on bringing in more $$. WDW will always be a chronic underachiever compared to what it should be.

And then there's those who love WDW more than anywhere on the planet, but realize that no place can ever be absolutely perfect. Disney leaders know that Magic is what it's all about, and more often than not, they hit the nail on the head. Criticism however, can keep them aware of shortcomings

Nothing accomplished with this thread, but it made for one juicy afternoon of reading. Thanks guys.

 

[Monty]

The bolded part is what I was talking about...

There are people here and everywhere who do really accept and like everything Disney throws at them...and just because they do does not make them an idiot...

Maybe to you..but that is once again your opinion.

So, anyone here who reads that statement...and does accept whatever Disney does will take that as you calling them an idio because well..you are.

When he says "idiot" he doesn't direct it at an individual, therefore he can honestly say he never called anyone here an idiot... When people who believe he was calling them idiots respond, he can call it a personal attack. That convoluted logic is the same as when he says Disney doesn't do it right and anyone who defends them is a "fanboi" or is snorting pixie dust, but if you simply prefer to enjoy what is good about Disney and not dwell on his perceived negatives, you clearly are a Disney sycophant and have none of his obvious credibility.

It's glass-half-empty vs. glass-half-full taken to ludicrous extremes.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Glad to see that this is all turning out nicely...:lookaroun

Honestly, it is needed sometimes. It is hard to enjoy a good Disney debate when personal insults begin to sling around the thread.

Many people here take Disney personally. And almost all of us, even those who bash occasionally, continue to visit. It is a special place to us.

Are some things looking down? Yes.

Is everything awful? No, of course not. And some stuff is not as bad to some as it is to others.

As a 20-year Disney veteran, I can tell you there are tings that I think are better about visiting today than previously. I know for me personally, I think food has improved greatly, especially being an adventurous eater. 20 years ago, nothing except burgers were authentic fare, and many restaurants do a much better job of it now. The dining plan has brought some offerings back toward the pack, but there are many improvements.

Many will disagree and cite a variety of examples or call the people there are just continuing on not noticing the change downward. I respectfully disagree, and that is what being here is truly all about. I welcome the debate.

Thank you! Perfectly said!

 

[DisneyChik17]

All he is saying is that Disney should deliver up to the standards that it set for itself from the beginning. He still enjoys going, just as I do. Imagine how much more you would enjoy your job if the Disney product, in every department, was as good as it used to be.

I remember when I was a cast member there. We got 100% medical, we were treated like royalty and it was truly a fun place to work. It isn't near what it used to be in terms of the workplace.

Maybe I don't have some bedazzled view of the internal workings of corporations. Honestly, I have a pretty good comprehension of what has to be done to make a company function. For the most part, shareholders, managers, and other higher ups care about very few things: cost, customer satisfaction, and output. Until WDW stops making money, or as much money, until people stop coming, and until the magic disappears, not a whole lot is going to be changed. Complaints may force some action by higher ups, but nothing major has been changed by a letter. I get that. I am very excited to work there, no matter how much better it was for you.

 

[nibblesandbits]

Nice. How many ways can one state that he or she can be disappointed with WDW because of its declining quality and standards, but still love to go because he or she grew up with it and because, despite its much lower standards, it's still unique...for now? He never said he hated the place.

Here's what I think is hard for a lot of people to understand...sometimes myself included...although, I think I'm getting an idea of things a little more clearly each time WDW1974 posts...

I think it's hard to understand how someone can be so dispappointed in a product (or at least disappointed in the way the product is going...) and yet still want to experience said product. Then...complain about how said product is going downhill and yet still love it. Typically, these things don't go together very well.

And it's hard to understand, especially for someone who isn't familiar with WDW's posting style, what it is he really wants to accomplish when he does post because when you look at it face value, it all looks like complaints and that the entire place doesn't make him happy. (Sometimes it's still hard for me to decipher what it is he wants...I can't tell if he wants change from us and us all realizing we're "being Walmarted towards" or whether he's coming on here to get the word out about things that should be different because he knows that Disney does in fact read these forums and he's hoping for a change...or if it's some other reason I'm still not getting.)

Therefore, as I mentioned before...it's hard for a lot of people to understand how all those things mentioned corrolate. And I think that's why there's a lot of backlash towards 1974. His philosophies about Disney are very juxtaposed and confusing to many, including myself.

 

[nibblesandbits]

All he is saying is that Disney should deliver up to the standards that it set for itself from the beginning. He still enjoys going, just as I do. Imagine how much more you would enjoy your job if the Disney product, in every department, was as good as it used to be.

I remember when I was a cast member there. We got 100% medical, we were treated like royalty and it was truly a fun place to work. It isn't near what it used to be in terms of the workplace.

I think the best question that needs to be posed to WDW1974 is...

ok...unfortunately things have changed...how "bad" it is...is debatable among the masses...and unfortunately, I don't see them going back 100% to where they once were...it's just not something that is going to be done (now...whether that's because of Disney as a company or how society differs from before or something else...that's debatable...and not what I'm getting at...)

So, the question I pose:

What is the happy medium that you can live with that Disney should be doing in their parks? (Remember, things are NOT going to go back to where there were no matterh how much they should or shouldn't...once again...debateable and not what I'm after.)

Also, what is it that should be done by those who want to try to get it to that happy medium place anyway? You must have some sort of opinion on this issue...you seem to on everything else.

(Oh and I'm sorry the workplace at Disney has changed...unfortunately, the workplace has changed all over the country...not just for Disney...but hey, I wouldn't have minded being treated like royalty at my job now either, but that definitely isn't going to happen...and I'm the boss's kid...actually, if I'm being honest, I think I get treated "worse" than my co-worker, as my boss can yell at me...they don't yell at her when there's a disagreement...:lol

 

[maggiegrace1]

When he says "idiot" he doesn't direct it at an individual, therefore he can honestly say he never called anyone here an idiot... When people who believe he was calling them idiots respond, he can call it a personal attack. That convoluted logic is the same as when he says Disney doesn't do it right and anyone who defends them is a "fanboi" or is snorting pixie dust, but if you simply prefer to enjoy what is good about Disney and not dwell on his perceived negatives, you clearly are a Disney sycophant and have none of his obvious credibility.

It's glass-half-empty vs. glass-half-full taken to ludicrous extremes.

Interesting Monty!..

Here's what I think is hard for a lot of people to understand...sometimes myself included...although, I think I'm getting an idea of things a little more clearly each time WDW1974 posts...

I think it's hard to understand how someone can be so dispappointed in a product (or at least disappointed in the way the product is going...) and yet still want to experience said product. Then...complain about how said product is going downhill and yet still love it. Typically, these things don't go together very well.

And it's hard to understand, especially for someone who isn't familiar with WDW's posting style, what it is he really wants to accomplish when he does post because when you look at it face value, it all looks like complaints and that the entire place doesn't make him happy. (Sometimes it's still hard for me to decipher what it is he wants...I can't tell if he wants change from us and us all realizing we're "being Walmarted towards" or whether he's coming on here to get the word out about things that should be different because he knows that Disney does in fact read these forums and he's hoping for a change...or if it's some other reason I'm still not getting.)

Therefore, as I mentioned before...it's hard for a lot of people to understand how all those things mentioned corrolate. And I think that's why there's a lot of backlash towards 1974. His philosophies about Disney are very juxtaposed and confusing to many, including myself.

He confuses the heck out of me...:lol:

 

[nibblesandbits]

Interesting Monty!..

He confuses the heck out of me...:lol:

Well, yes...that's the easy way of putting it...but he seems to like well thought out statements, so I thought I'd go for one of those. :lol:

 

[whylightbulb]

Here's what I think is hard for a lot of people to understand...sometimes myself included...although, I think I'm getting an idea of things a little more clearly each time WDW1974 posts...

I think it's hard to understand how someone can be so dispappointed in a product (or at least disappointed in the way the product is going...) and yet still want to experience said product. Then...complain about how said product is going downhill and yet still love it. Typically, these things don't go together very well.

And it's hard to understand, especially for someone who isn't familiar with WDW's posting style, what it is he really wants to accomplish when he does post because when you look at it face value, it all looks like complaints and that the entire place doesn't make him happy. (Sometimes it's still hard for me to decipher what it is he wants...I can't tell if he wants change from us and us all realizing we're "being Walmarted towards" or whether he's coming on here to get the word out about things that should be different because he knows that Disney does in fact read these forums and he's hoping for a change...or if it's some other reason I'm still not getting.)

Therefore, as I mentioned before...it's hard for a lot of people to understand how all those things mentioned corrolate. And I think that's why there's a lot of backlash towards 1974. His philosophies about Disney are very juxtaposed and confusing to many, including myself.

Well I suppose I can't speak for him directly, but if you have read any of my posts in the last few months, you'll know that he and I agree on most issues in this regard.

In answer to your question regarding how someone can be disappointed in a product and the direction management is taking for that product and still enjoy the product I will use an analogy I used in another post. If you have a daughter or a son you'll understand that the child was perfect when he or she was born. Some children then grow up to a life of crime and underachievement. Does that mean you don't still love them? You would still love them unconditionally despite how far they have fallen.

I realize this is a dramatic example, after all, WDW and Disney is just an entertainment complex and intellectual properties. but to some it's much more. To myself it's what shaped my life's ambition from the first time I visited WDW and watched The Wonderful World of Disney on my black and white TV. From the moment I stepped onto Disney property I knew I wanted to be an Imagineer. I worked hard to acheieve that goal and finally did. I was there during the "golden age" and was taught by the people that invented this business. People like John Hench, Marc Davis, Tony Baxter, Claude Coats and Ward Kimball. I left just after Tower of Terror and Indiana Jones ride because I saw the writing on the wall.

So at least for myself, I complain a lot because I'm watching my baby go in the wrong direction. Before you know it, WDW won't be recognizable anymore. Does that help explain the perspective?

 

[whylightbulb]

I think the best question that needs to be posed to WDW1974 is...

ok...unfortunately things have changed...how "bad" it is...is debatable among the masses...and unfortunately, I don't see them going back 100% to where they once were...it's just not something that is going to be done (now...whether that's because of Disney as a company or how society differs from before or something else...that's debatable...and not what I'm getting at...)

So, the question I pose:

What is the happy medium that you can live with that Disney should be doing in their parks? (Remember, things are NOT going to go back to where there were no matterh how much they should or shouldn't...once again...debateable and not what I'm after.)

Also, what is it that should be done by those who want to try to get it to that happy medium place anyway? You must have some sort of opinion on this issue...you seem to on everything else.

(Oh and I'm sorry the workplace at Disney has changed...unfortunately, the workplace has changed all over the country...not just for Disney...but hey, I wouldn't have minded being treated like royalty at my job now either, but that definitely isn't going to happen...and I'm the boss's kid...actually, if I'm being honest, I think I get treated "worse" than my co-worker, as my boss can yell at me...they don't yell at her when there's a disagreement...:lol

Unfortunately I have to get going and this requires a longer answer than I have time for. I'll get back with you tomorrow.

 

[Dragonrider1227]

I gotta agree with 1974 on the new Stitch show. I've never been one to ask for a lot from my vacation but even I was underwhelmed by that.

A defender of Mediocrity, sworn enemy of the Fanboy.:lookaroun:lol::lol:

ROFL I gotta admit, that's actually kinda funny. Though my views on Mediocre and other people's view of mediocre tend to be entirely different views on mediocre :lookaroun

Epcot, I will be one of the people who says and thinks that FW is a mess. A weakened example of what it once was. It does still carry itself like a mighty warrior, with all the massive buildings, each architectural marvels in one way or another. But it's a warrior of weakened spirit. Still fierce on the outside, yet empty and lacking on the inside. It retains it's feeling, but lacks its true content.

Sounds like humanity's current view of the future to me

And the food and souvenirs. Well, thats another story. The variety is sorely missed.

Gotta give you that one. I can't say much about the food (I could eat a cold Pizza and be happy ;p) but the souvenirs are mediocre at best. I mean, after the third store I saw in a park carrying the same Pirate swords and electronic blinking light toys, I began to raise an eyebrow.

 

[sittle]

So ... been pondering a July 4th up at the World (if I can't get far, far away) and a few things popped into my mind making me think twice:

Park Hours. Has anyone looked at July? Is this another example of cutting as many as they can now ... only to toss some back at last minute by making it appear busier than expected? I can't ever recall MK closing before midnight on the Fourth, yet it's down for 11 p.m. on that night and most others are 10 (those were summer hours during dark days earlier this decade). TPFKaTD-MGMS actually has 7 p.m. closings scheduled in July ... something that I'd love to believe is only a mistake but I doubt it. And a 9 p.m. close on the Fourth with no pyro? Even DAK is on a 9-7 schedule. Only EPCOT keeps its 'traditional' schedule (by that I mean what people have come to expect the past decade, not what they used to offer).

So ... then I start looking at AP rates (although I may have a CM book me something better if I indeed go) ... for all the discounting that's been going on ... and all the dire summer projections ... well, the discounts are paltry. $74/$84 at values, $114/$124 at mods, $154/$184 at DAK Lodge (this is the only one at the lower price point that really feels like a deal). I'd like to check out the new rooms at Coronado since my last stay there was right after the last renovation started in 2003 and these rooms do look even better ... but at those prices I could likely Priceline an amazing resort for less (JW Marriott, Gaylord Palms, Omni Championsgate, DD Hilton even).

Of course, does a Spirit want to stay at a resort where he can return to his room after baking in theme parks only to find the room is musty and hot because the AC has either been turned off or turned up?

And dining? ... Prices keep going up ($15 for a lower quality lunch buffet at Trail's End that was $4.99 in the mid-90s?!?!) ... Of course there's Sanna and the Wave, which haven't been tried yet (and usually Disney's new locations are really great when they debut)

Freshness? What will WDW offer me that is new from my last visit a few months back? Stitch's LCI Dance Disaster? Our new Prez in the HoP (OK, this at least mildly interests me).

Of course I really want to spend a few afternoons at Aquatica and ride Manta, so I have the feeling I'm going to wind up in O-Town ... but ... I'm sure not excited by the prospects.

Anyone want to talk me into a trip?

..... You really just need to find something else to obsess over.. This has been stated at least 20 times in the previous ten pages, but it probably needs to be said again.. If WDW has lost its lustre for you, find somewhere else to go..,,

 

[kennygman]

Thanks for the intelligent response.

This is under news and rumors because I haven't seen one post discussing the HUGE cuts in July hours that I discovered when looking into planning a visit.

I also found the paltry discounts newsworthy as well since I didn't see a thread on them and Disney is struggling yet the big period of discounting seems to be over.

Hmmm, who's intelligent? The thread was moved to its proper position. What exactly is your education level? Bachelor of Arts ______ Laude here.

 

[wdwfan22]

You seem to be someone who goes out of habit, not desire. You have nothing better to do than walk around and criticize. If you are going to do that, why not go stir up trouble elsewhere? I just can't see spending all that money and time if I know I am coming back miserable each trip, which is how you come across.

Well said. I've noticed this with quite a few regulars. They seem to go to the parks because it's habbit and they really don't have anythinig else to do. The more you go anywhere it's going to eventually become stale and repetitive. However not everyone feels that the quality has slipped away like 74 does. My parents have been going every year multiple times per year since the park opened in 71. While they will tell you the place has gotten more expensive over the years and a few of the attractions they loved are gone, they will also tell you the quality and magic that is Disney is still alive and well. This is of course my parents opinion but just goes to show that not everyone feels the same way as some do. We should be respectful of everyone's view and not be so quick to cast judgment. 74 you are often quick to present things as fact when indeed they are just your opinions.

With that in mind if you do decide to visit this 4th of July I hope you enjoy yourself.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Therefore, as I mentioned before...it's hard for a lot of people to understand how all those things mentioned corrolate. And I think that's why there's a lot of backlash towards 1974. His philosophies about Disney are very juxtaposed and confusing to many, including myself.

It's very simple, and I'm much akin to it...

You love the company for what it stands for, what it's done, and the memories and feelings you created with it.

You hate the way the company is being run now, because it's hindering the afore said things for new guests.

I think I got it right...?:lookaroun:lol:

 

[KeithVH]

Wow, anyone get that feeling they were back on Usenet reading an R.A.D.P. thread?

I always thought better of things here.:shrug:

 

[jakeman]

Interesting thread.

Really what is comes down to is people have an emotional connection to WDW and can't seperate that from the fact that it is a product, like a can of ravioli. This fundimental barrier prevents them from making rational decisions regarding a percieved decline in the product.

You will never here someone talking about how a can of ravioli had much more dedication put into it 20 years ago or how the label had more magic. If the ravioli is bad, you just would stop buying it and switch to another brand.

For some reason, people can't do that with WDW.

I have always found it amusing that some of the loudest advocates for the declining quality are people who go the most frequent.

Why should Disney try to please you? You are going to give them your money anyways.

The folks that have pointed out that if you are unhappy with the product you should stop going are fairly accurate. Disney is a major corporation, they will only respond to a decline in revenue, not a fanboy who is shaking their fist in the air about how much less the place is now while booking their third trip this year.

If you can take a step back and take the emotion out of it, it's a pretty clear issue and solution. However, as stated, most people can't, so they come here and justify why they are still giving money to a percieved sub-standard product.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Interesting thread.

Really what is comes down to is people have an emotional connection to WDW and can't seperate that from the fact that it is a product, like a can of ravioli. This fundimental barrier prevents them from making rational decisions regarding a percieved decline in the product.

You will never here someone talking about how a can of ravioli had much more dedication put into it 20 years ago or how the label had more magic. If the ravioli is bad, you just would stop buying it and switch to another brand.

For some reason, people can't do that with WDW.

Right, because that's comparing apples and oranges. Disney is nostagia, is magic, is memories.

I've never known someone to feel that way about a can of ravioli, although, I must admit, it would be very interesting.:lookaroun:ROFLOL:

I would type up some more, but I'm tired, and the pillow is calling my name.:lol:

Evening, gents...:wave: (and ladies, too!)

 

[jakeman]

Right, because that's comparing apples and oranges. Disney is nostagia, is magic, is memories.

When you get past all that though, it's still just a product. Most people can't, or refuse to, see it that way.