Two Spirited Quickees...Imagination closing

[asianway]

No lean isn't. Lean is about boosting productivity. Lean is about speed and agility. The ability to adapt. This results in cost saving through increased output, reduced waste, and in manufacturing this usually allows reduced inventories. Hence the connection to 'just in time' manufacturing.

Lean hinges on empowerment and listening... Two things Disney doesn't do with cms

Theyll convert whatever front line savings into more bloat in the office buildings, every time.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I smell an award winning documentary film: FastPass, the Monster that ate Disney!

I don't want to get an At-a-boy, or anything but I would like to go on record as being one of the first people that within weeks of the start up of FP, to write to Disney and tell them that even though they think they have a great thing here, somewhere down the road there was going to be a price to pay. Even if it doesn't "eat" Disney completely, it sure has taken a couple of bites out of it.

Sorry Disney...I tried to warn you!

 

[Goofyernmost]

I did not give a solution because I do not have one that would be globally perceived as equitable for all. I simply asked what the difference was between waiting in line in a wheel chair and waiting for the same period of time in a designated area. In other words, waiting in a designated area instead of waiting in line does nothing to solve a disabled inability to be in the parks for an extended period of time. I also recognized that some peoples bodies will not allow them to experience Disney at the same pace as a healthy person. Because of this, front of the line privileges is a nice perk that Disney provides for disabled people. I agree that most disabled do not want to be treated differently, but I am sure that there are sick people who appreciate the fact that they have the opportunity to experience a variety of Disney attractions in spite of their respective conditions.

Like you, I have no idea what the answer to this is. I do know that in the 90's previous to ADA, GAC or even Fastpass, I escorted disabled people to WDW. Mostly, they were mentally challenged, but I also had one gentleman that had CP that I took a number of times. His disease caused him a lot of discomfort, but he never complained. He was so happy to just be someplace other then the four walls that had become his lifelong prison. At the time in WDW, all there were, were just plain lines...no standby, no FP, just the same as everyone else. If the queues were large enough he happily sat there in his chair until he got to the front of the line, then with my help he would get up and out of the chair as I partially held him up and got him to walk and get on the ride. He didn't want them to stop the moving sidewalks, he wanted to experience them. It scared him a couple of times because he thought we weren't going to make it, but we always did. They did let us go into the ride via the exit many times because at the time, at least in MK, the queues were not big enough, but Epcot what fine. We almost always had to wait for the appropriate vehicle or numbers to allow him to ride. The wheelchair locations were either in the back of the theater or so close to the front that you would have to practically break your neck looking up to it. He could never experience the Swedish chef in the Muppets because he/we were seated behind it in the wheelchair section. But you know what? He still loved every single minute of it. His CP made it very difficult for him to speak, but he would get so excited about his trips to the World that he would try to tell everyone he saw all about it. At the time this man was in his 60's. He had spent the majority of his life in institutions because his inability to speak had him labeled as, at the time called, retarded. He was not, not even close.

The things that Disney did at the time for those with obvious problems was nothing short of remarkable. They had a common sense approach to the problem and everyone knew that there was going to be occasions when being handicapped meant that some things were unattainable. Otherwise there aren't really handicapped are they? ADA had all the good intentions in the world, but the rules were written by people that themselves were not disabled, I think. I don't know how they could have been because no thought was given to the long range problems that it would create for the disabled. They focused on inclusion only, not on realities of inclusion. They didn't care if it put the disabled person in danger, safety rules were to be ignored because it was inclusion at all cost. That created the situation that we have now. A place that wants to help is forced to deal with EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE PROBLEM that anyone could possibly have. I think that is really very unfair to ask of any organization.

I'm not putting down people that feel that their autistic children should be able to experience Disney like everyone else, but I do know that if I had a child that would go into melt down (panic) when confronted with a crowd, I don't think I would take the chance of exposing them purposely to that much possible stress. It just doesn't seem right to me somehow. The possible harm would far outweigh the benefit. How much fun is the child having if he/she is in panic mode most of the time. Seems to me like, not much. However, it is the "spirit" of the law that now requires accommodations be made, even if every common sense fiber in ones being is screaming no...this isn't what should be happening.

I hope whatever they come up with is good, but, I'm guessing that there isn't a whole lot more that they can change and still provide for people and remain compliant with the laws. For the scum bags and sleaze balls that actually fake a problem or lie about it or use someone with a problem to make their own experience nicer, well, all I can say is I hope that at some point in time they are actually disabled. I'll bet they won't find it near as cool as they think it is now.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Most of you would not enjoy if you had to work a FP Merge point or Return for a popular ride.

Let's examine the FP Return line first...

-People trying to duck under or climb over chains to get into the FP line and then lie about it.

-People crowding the FP Return entrance because they are mad it's not their time so they are going to stand if front of you or just to the side of you until it's their time and then they won't wait in line because they were "already standing there."

-Guests who do not know English try to enter with a park ticket, non valid FP ticket or nothing and then you have to waste time trying to explain to them why they can't come in, all the while, you have other Guests with FP pushing their way past you while you are trying to explain all of this to the non-English speaking Guest.

-People queueing in the FP line, but don't know it's the FP line and get mad at you when they get up to you and you tell them to use the Stand-By line.

-People demanding you let them in early or late because of every reason possible.

-GAC cards with up to 6 people who try to bring in 8,9,10 people and yell at you because you won't make an exception for them.

-GAC cards that have been altered and you have to argue with the Guest about if it was truly altered or not.

-Trash not being swept in your queue or immediate area because there is no possible way for you to move for the position and Custodial does not and won't clean Attraction queues.

-The ride stops or closes for a prolonged time and you are trying to deal with a huge backed up line of people coming from all directions.

Merge point...

-Guests yelling at your for letting in so many Guests from the FP line and then demand answers and continue to yell at you for giving a truthful explanation.

-Guests poking you with their fingers and trying to intimidate you to let them go next.

-Guests spitting on you and or punching you.

-Guests chanting at you and or counting the number of people you letting in from FP out loud.

-Guests telling you you are doing the numbers wrong or demanding you tell them what numbers you are using and insist you are doing it wrong.

-Guests telling you you are treating them like 2nd class citizens and demanding your name so they can complain about you following your numbers at Merge correctly.

-Guests instantly demanding a FP (in or out of line) for any sort of situation that they deem to be bad or unacceptable.

-Groups of Guests lying about how many people they have in their group, thus making the people behind them wait even longer because they combined with another group. If called out for that lie, the Guests get in your face and on the verge of physical.

-Guests getting to you without a FP and when confronted saying "but we are already here, let us go in..."

Don't even get me started if a FP line gets to a Phase 2 or 3...

Physical violence or threats, crying Cast Members, multiple Managers and Security called, changing the amount of people you take from FP from anywhere from 16-80 people based on the length of the line.

Great system.

System? The problem is not the system, the problem is the guests. And the guests are the result of Disney positioning itself ever lower on the cultural ladder.


I don't think there was much finger poking at employees to get into the Empress Lilly. Guests showed up in tie and jacket, to enjoy a fine meal to live jazz music in a sophisticated environment (an elegant riverboat).

But there will be yelling and physical threats from guests gnawing on a 16lbs turkey leg entering the queue for Buzz Does PowPow after they've just been subjected to a timeshare sales pitch.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

You don't prove causation by illustrating the absence of it results in the inverse. Such attempts not only fail simple logic, they are prone to linking the wrong properties because it assumes the cause rather than explicitly linking them through experimentation and isolation.

But...you do can prove (help establish the likelihood of) a causal relationship by illustrating the absense of its results in the inverse.

 

[misterID]

I'm not putting down people that feel that their autistic children should be able to experience Disney like everyone else, but I do know that if I had a child that would go into melt down (panic) when confronted with a crowd, I don't think I would take the chance of exposing them purposely to that much possible stress. It just doesn't seem right to me somehow. The possible harm would far outweigh the benefit. How much fun is the child having if he/she is in panic mode most of the time. Seems to me like, not much. However, it is the "spirit" of the law that now requires accommodations be made, even if every common sense fiber in ones being is screaming no...this isn't what should be happening.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk here, but we can all think we can parent other people's kids better than they do, especially from the standpoint as to not inconvenience us in certain situations. The thing that's being lost in your post is that Disney has decided to create a system that would allow parents to bring autistic children to the parks with the rest of their family and cut down on the chances for "meltdowns" which is pretty damn stellar if you ask me. Otherwise, a lot of these parents, who typically have more than one child, won't have to make the decision to leave one of their children out of going somewhere ( a mall, a restaurant, a themepark) while they take their "normal" children.

Disney World is not strictly the happiest place on earth *for the average, healthy guest. It's for the whole family, no matter what that family looks like.

I know you're not coming from a mean-spirited place in your post, it's actually very normal to ask, "Why would they bring their kid here if they're going to freak out?" But really, it's open to everyone to have the same experience, or as close as that can possibly be attained. There are things we have to deal with. I have a bigger problem with normal, helathy teenagers or people with horrible BO (anyone who's been to The World enough times knows what I'm talking about!) but you know what, sometimes you have to deal and at the end of the day it's not that big of one. I think Disney does a great job in cutting down the chances for "freak outs" so everyone can have the same experience.

 

[FigmentJedi]

Not to mention...they opened it up after closing it briefly to do a Figment meet and greet.

The point is...it's not condemned, and the "fire evacuation" concerns are also invalid...

It's not open because Disney doesn't want it open. Period.

No, the Figment Meet and Greet was put into the old Camera Shop. The Imageworks was used for Drakken's Lair in the original Kim Possible Testing.

 

[TP2000]

Soft Opening day of Mermaid was a revelation. About noon the following day fast past was turned on and the standby line mushroomed.

Thanks to my Disneyland and WDW wait time apps on my beloved iPhone, you can also see the impact once Fastpass is turned on. Compare the various wait times of cloned attractions that have no Fastpass at Disneyland, but have Fastpass at WDW. I've chosen to do this now around 1:00PM Pacific Time because with a three hour time difference between the two properties I think it's as close to equity as you'll get on a mid-summer day.

According to my official wait time apps, here is what current wait times are for cloned FP and non-FP attractions. I also included the Splash Mountain and Test Track/Racers wait at each property to use as a FP benchmark on a busy summer day.

Disneyland Resort, 7/16/13, 1:15PM Pacific, Weather: Blue Skies, Dry with Light Breeze, 78 Degrees, RealFeel Temp 76 Degreees
The Little Mermaid - 5 Minutes (non FP)
Toy Story Midway Mania - 40 Minutes (non FP)
Splash Mountain - 75 Minutes (FP)
Radiator Springs Racers - 120 Minutes (FP)

WDW Resort, 7/16/13, 4:15PM Eastern, Weather: Thunderstorm, Moderate Rain, 81 Degreees, RealFeel Temp 85 Degrees
The Little Mermaid - 60 Minutes (FP)
Toy Story Midway Mania - 120 Minutes (FP)
Splash Mountain - 75 Minutes (FP)
Test Track - Closed Due To Inclement Weather

Interesting, don't you think? Especially at Mermaid.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I'm really not trying to be a jerk here, but we can all think we can parent other people's kids better than they do, especially from the standpoint as to not inconvenience us in certain situations. The thing that's being lost in your post is that Disney has decided to create a system that would allow parents to bring autistic children to the parks with the rest of their family and cut down on the chances for "meltdowns" which is pretty damn stellar if you ask me. Otherwise, a lot of these parents, who typically have more than one child, won't have to make the decision to leave one of their children out of going somewhere ( a mall, a restaurant, a themepark) while they take their "normal" children.

Disney World is not strictly the happiest place on earth *for the average, healthy guest. It's for the whole family, no matter what that family looks like.

I know you're not coming from a mean-spirited place in your post, it's actually very normal to ask, "Why would they bring their kid here if they're going to freak out?" But really, it's open to everyone to have the same experience, or as close as that can possibly be attained. There are things we have to deal with. I have a bigger problem with normal, helathy teenagers or people with horrible BO (anyone who's been to The World enough times knows what I'm talking about!) but you know what, sometimes you have to deal and at the end of the day it's not that big of one. I think Disney does a great job in cutting down the chances for "freak outs" so everyone can have the same experience.

I can understand you sensitivity to what I said, but I didn't say that they should or shouldn't AND I have been a parent, still am in fact, but, they are nearly 40 years old now. What I said was that knowing what I know about autism I am having a hard time believing that a child with problems like that are having the 'great' time that everyone seems to think they are. There is just so much that Disney or anyone else can do for a person that has a problem with crowds or lines especially in a theme park. I think that it would be unfair of me with that particular problem to demand that special considerations be made to accommodate them at the, even limited, expense of others. I was merely expressing my feelings...everyone else is free to feel whatever they like. I am entitled to my opinion of how I would have felt and handled that situation of that particular parenting challenge. And that was all I was attempting to express.

I think what I was saying is that for that child, I'm not sure that the parents are being sensitive enough to recognize that it MAY NOT BE the happiest place on earth for the child. The person or parent with the autism problem are judging participation by their own consciousness and not necessarily that of the child. I'm having fun...he/she must be as well. Just like I would not make someone with vertigo walk on the edge of a steel beam 20 stories up, I would not put my child in a crowded, situation if they have a problem with that. It just doesn't seem right to me. Although it sounds like I am judging the parents that do, that was not my intent with what I said. I was saying how I felt...others need to not be concerned about what I or anybody else might feel, they just need the strength of their convictions to do what they feel is the right thing. The rest of my post would indicate that I agree with the effort that Disney puts into helping whomever they can. To be able to deal with every single problem that is possible is almost like asking them to try to drain the ocean with a thimble.

 

[culturenthrills]

I never got to experience the second floor, well at least I don't remember it but I honestly have seen videos and I think it would have been my favorite area in the parks and my favorite pavilion. From the stepping tones to sensor maze, its a shame really, you know what would be awesome though? If they brought back a 2.0 version of everything that was done there, something that would really make you stop and say wow I just wanna see that place shine with imagination the way it used to.

As a young kid the upstairs was my favorite part. My memories of the ride were vague until seeing the tribute videos but I have pretty vivid memories of the upstairs.

 

[Radok Block]

I thought they closed the second floor because it wasn't ADA-compliant? Wasn't the only access via staircase and one small elevator?

 

[asianway]

I thought they closed the second floor because it wasn't ADA-compliant? Wasn't the only access via staircase and one small elevator?

There was an elevator = ADA compliant.

The only thing Ive ever heard logically was evacuation issues for fire safety, but a few folks here are saying thats bunk. Makes sense considering the fire chief is on the payroll.

 

[MOXOMUMD]

I thought they closed the second floor because it wasn't ADA-compliant? Wasn't the only access via staircase and one small elevator?

It also had escalators.

 

[Radok Block]

Yeah, but does one elevator (or whatever they actually had in there) cut it for ADA purposes? I know the law has specific requirements in terms of minimum sizes and clearances. (I am a lawyer, by the way, albeit one who doesn't practice anymore and never did any ADA cases, so I'm just thinking out loud here.)

I adored the Image Works too, and I can certainly believe that the ADA thing was just another excuse to close it...but at the same time I can see how a space built in 1982 may not have been in compliance.

 

[misterID]

I can understand you sensitivity to what I said, but I didn't say that they should or shouldn't AND I have been a parent, still am in fact, but, they are nearly 40 years old now. What I said was that knowing what I know about autism I am having a hard time believing that a child with problems like that are having the 'great' time that everyone seems to think they are. There is just so much that Disney or anyone else can do for a person that has a problem with crowds or lines especially in a theme park. I think that it would be unfair of me with that particular problem to demand that special considerations be made to accommodate them at the, even limited, expense of others. I was merely expressing my feelings...everyone else is free to feel whatever they like. I am entitled to my opinion of how I would have felt and handled that situation of that particular parenting challenge. And that was all I was attempting to express.

I think what I was saying is that for that child, I'm not sure that the parents are being sensitive enough to recognize that it MAY NOT BE the happiest place on earth for the child. The person or parent with the autism problem are judging participation by their own consciousness and not necessarily that of the child. I'm having fun...he/she must be as well. Just like I would not make someone with vertigo walk on the edge of a steel beam 20 stories up, I would not put my child in a crowded, situation if they have a problem with that. It just doesn't seem right to me. Although it sounds like I am judging the parents that do, that was not my intent with what I said. I was saying how I felt...others need to not be concerned about what I or anybody else might feel, they just need the strength of their convictions to do what they feel is the right thing. The rest of my post would indicate that I agree with the effort that Disney puts into helping whomever they can. To be able to deal with every single problem that is possible is almost like asking them to try to drain the ocean with a thimble.

I didn't say you weren't a parent, I'm saying you're not their parent. You're pointing your finger (and saying you're not at the same time) basically questioning the parents intent.I think any parent who's around their child all the time would be highly sensitive to what they're feeling, what they need, and are a lot more sensitive than you seem to be, even based on your "experience" with autism.

It's a huge leap to assume you know better than they do, which was my main point that was lost on you and you felt the need to declare you're a parent of 40 year olds, or you're of the opinion that parents of autistic children who visit Disney aren't "sensitive" enough to their child's needs, or they're acting, well, basically selfishly. If that were the case, they would leave the kid at home, or with a grandparent, and they would go enjoy the parks themselves, not having to put up with what they have to put up with during the course of a visit. The whole point is that they AND disney are trying to avoid putting their child in the situation you keep describing, so I really don't get your argument. They don't have to stay home. They're working together to correct that problem to have a great vacation. It's time to accept it. And yeah, I'm sure you're a wonderful parent, to your kids. Not theirs. And yes, you are judging.

 

[Soarin' Over Pgh]

Goofy, thank you for posting that. I've always wondered why people with ADHD Ada children would expose them to massive crowds at disney and then balk at the thought of standing in a line. That's life, I hate to sound harsh. But part of life is waiting. Patience. What better way to teach that, than with a grand reward (the ride, show, meet n greet, etc) at the end?

The thought of the crowds scares me more than standing in line...

 

[NoChesterHester]

Yeah, but does one elevator cut it for ADA purposes? I know the law has specific requirements in terms of minimum sizes and clearances. (I am a lawyer, by the way, albeit one who doesn't practice anymore and never did any ADA cases, so I'm just thinking out loud here.)

I adored the Image Works too, and I can certainly believe that the ADA thing was just another excuse to close it...but at the same time I can see how a space built in 1982 may not have been in compliance.

Yes there are minimum clearances. 53" x 68" is the minimum ADA cab size.

http://www.ada.gov/reg3a/fig22.htm

BUT... if you don't change the original intended use... then you are actually never required by law to upgrade an accessible route. I believe Disney's corporate policy is different than the actual legal requirement. They tend to be very accommodating.

BTW - a retrofit two stop elevator with nice finishes is about $250K. It isn't insanely expensive for a company like Disney, but it isn't so cheap that it would be a no-brainer.

 

[HauntedPirate]

Not sure if I agree or not about getting rid of FP - I posed the same question a couple of pages back.

Here's the reality - with a $2 billion dollar investment in NextGen (which includes FP+ among other things) and the substantial investment in enhanced queues - FASTPASS IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

Not only is it not going anywhere, it is being expanded exponentially.

It certainly is not going anywhere, unfortunately. It's now being twisted into nothing more than an accessory to Disney's massive (and massively expensive) data acquisition program, aka - My Magic+, the sole intention of which is to fool the guests into thinking they are having a great time and getting "good value" for their thousands of vacation dollars while Disney gets to mine copious amounts of data on their eating habits, riding tendencies, spending levels, and all sorts of other related things.

Meanwhile, Disney is taking FastPass, which was designed to "get guests out of lines" and on other attractions and/or into shops (aka - spending money), and essentially flushing it down the toilet as a way of having each guest is treated (somewhat) equally when it comes to obtaining a FP, no matter what their income level is or where they are staying. While flawed, FP serves a purpose - in select instances and not at each and every freaking ride and attraction.

With the changes Disney is bringing to the FP system, they are opening the floodgates to a FP caste system - The more you pay, the more Disney magic you can experience!!! *wink wink* And I fear there are even more things they are looking to monetize with MM+. For example: Pay rack rate for a room at a Deluxe resort and, "You'll get the Disney Dining Plan for FREE, plus early-access to Advance Dining Reservations at your favorite restaurants, ensuring you'll get the dining times you want! That's just more of the Disney magic!!! *wink wink*"

To me, the question should really become - Why has Disney been spending unknown-millions on "enhanced queues", so that guests can be entertained while they wait in queues, when FastPass was supposed to take people out of the queues? I can't help but think that MM+ is part of some scheme to get the first-time guests, that Disney markets heavily to, to miss out on so much that they just have to come back so that they can experience more of the 'Disney magic'!!! *wink wink*

I've been enjoying the discussions around Future World attractions. It would bring an immense smile to my face if Disney corporate and TDO pulled their heads out of their synergistic a**es for once and brought JII back to its former glory. It seems as though every decision is now driven by, "How can we synergize [proposed ride or attraction or refurb] with [piece of IP] and make lots of money from parents buying lots of our cheap crappy merchandise for their kids??". Yes, I completely understand that Disney is a business and its goal is to turn a profit. But if they are going to squeeze the guests for more and more $$$, the least they could do would be to reinvest some of that into the parks that generate the revenue (and $1 billion+ in annual profit). No, the NFL is NOT an example of Disney "reinvesting" - For the hundreds of millions they tout they're spending on NFL, they've added a meet-and-greet, an average-at-best restaurant, one D-ticket ride and have another D-ticket scheduled to open in about 8 months. I will freely give Disney credit for the level of theming, which is really, really good. But forgive me if I'm expecting just a little bit more out of the $600 million or whatever Disney's spending on NFL, when something like E:E cost $100 million and that's including the world's most advanced AudioAni...err... furry disco ornament.

It annoys the bejeezus out of me how Disney has taken, for example, Future World, and turned it from something near-visionary into thrill rides that (they thought would) appeal to the lowest-common-denominator (Not insinuating that anyone who enjoys thrill rides is dumb as a stick!! I love a good roller coaster/thrill ride, I just don't feel they belong in Future World). As a result Disney has dragged FW down into the sludge where far too many Americans reside as a result of the "dumbing down" of seemingly everything now, not to mention the instant-gratification/can't-focus-on-anything-for-more-than-12-seconds-or-140-characters society we are devolving into.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I didn't say you weren't a parent, I'm saying you're not their parent. You're pointing your finger (and saying you're not at the same time) basically questioning the parents intent.I think any parent who's around their child all the time would be highly sensitive to what they're feeling, what they need, and are a lot more sensitive than you seem to be, even based on your "experience" with autism.

It's a huge leap to assume you know better than they do, which was my main point that was lost on you and you felt the need to declare you're a parent of 40 year olds, or you're of the opinion that parents of autistic children who visit Disney aren't "sensitive" enough to their child's needs, or they're acting, well, basically selfishly. If that were the case, they would leave the kid at home, or with a grandparent, and they would go enjoy the parks themselves, not having to put up with what they have to put up with during the course of a visit. The whole point is that they AND disney are trying to avoid putting their child in the situation you keep describing, so I really don't get your argument. They don't have to stay home. They're working together to correct that problem to have a great vacation. It's time to accept it. And yeah, I'm sure you're a wonderful parent, to your kids. Not theirs. And yes, you are judging.

I will say this once more and then I'm done...I am saying what I feel about what I would do. Yes, it does sound like I'm being judgmental in a bad way, but I am only using those examples to illustrate that I don't feel that way. My opinion...my opinion...my opinion of what I think I would do under the same situation and why I feel that way. Not what someone else is doing. I could be wrong and so could you. I'm not fighting to have my own way, in this case, I'm expressing how I feel personally and how I feel that I would react to it. Nothing more...and on that note, I'm out. You should continue this argument with someone that is actually NOT sympathetic to the cause, overall.

 

[misterID]

Goofy, thank you for posting that. I've always wondered why people with ADHD Ada children would expose them to massive crowds at disney and then balk at the thought of standing in a line. That's life, I hate to sound harsh. But part of life is waiting. Patience. What better way to teach that, than with a grand reward (the ride, show, meet n greet, etc) at the end?

The thought of the crowds scares me more than standing in line...

That's like telling a manic depressive to stop being sad. It's not, like, there's an actual neurological disorder happening here. I mean, teaching patience to ADHD kids... Well, golly, you just invented a cure. If only people thought of this before instead of wasting all that time and money with doctors and medications and research.

We really need a much better understanding of a problem before we start giving advice on what parents should/should not do to fix it.