Two coasts: One very different world

theRIOT

Active Member
Sorry. I was not looking to upset you or make this hostile. You are entitled to your opinion and I am not trying to tell you how you should think.

You're not making me hostile. And I want to point out my reply really is aimed at everyone not solely at you.

Truthfully, there are tons of awesome things to see and do in The World.

I just would like to see things kept up to the standards of all the Walt quotes they love to throw around.

We still think it is great as it is. I don't see the decrease in quality that you and others talk about.

I never got to go in the heyday of the 90s. My first trip was in 2004. Did I love it, sure. So much I packed up, moved to O-Town and got a job at MK in '05. I didn't stay long as greener pastures came calling, but I loved my time there.

Since then I've gone back to visit and everytime, little things keep getting hacked away as the prices slowly creep up.
You'll eventually start to notice it, too.
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
I started looking at threads like this one and could not understand why people who were so negative against WDW would be posting on a WDW message board.

Your comment right here is what I think a lot of the problem is on these boards... Intelligent discussions get over taken by those who cannot comprehend what others are saying, no matter what side you are coming down on... Goof, I'm not saying this is you, just using your quote an example of the issues here... So please don't take this as anything negative or an attack on you cause it isn't...

The mentality is THIS IS A WDW BOARD THEREFORE YOU HAVE TO BE BEHIND WDW 100% NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO... that isn't the case, and shouldn't be... People don't get that.. You can be a fan of something yet still be highly critical of it at the same time... It is OK to be critical of something you love... Doesn't make you a bad person, as some people want to try to make others out to be...

I use this example on other boards: I'm a Yankee fan as are my friends... However, I'm not blindly loyal to the team where I believe every move they make are the best moves ever, or that they are the perfect team... I point out their flaws, where they are lacking something, and I'm not afraid to point out if I hate a player or a move they make or if I feel someone if going to be a bust... But, mention any of this to my Yankee fan friends, and you'd think I discussed plans for blowing up the world... They look at me with this "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THE BEST GM IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL, AND THE BEST MANAGER EVER" or "THE BEST TEAM IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL".. blah blah blah... Oh, and forget it if I give props to Tampa Bay, Baltimore, or Heaven forbid, the Mets... Their heads spin and practically explode...

The same goes for here... The WDW fans (the ones who cannot seem to understand there is a world outside of WDW) cannot comprehend when people say Universal is fun... Why?? Because they have conditioned themselves (or have become brainwashed) to think there is nothing else in the world other than WDW... And they have conditioned themselves to believe no one can ever top WDW... And yet, here is Universal catching up and ever surpassing Disney in a lot of places... They don't want to see that because, in their fantasy world, this could never happen... and it scares them... You can't even talk about another Disney theme park being better than WDW... And forget saying you enjoyed a Six Flags or Busch Gardens... More heads explode...

Blind loyalty does not make you a better fan than someone else... Just like knowing the inner workings or having contacts doesn't make that person a better fan... A fan can look at WDW (or a sport team) and be objective and point out a decline in quality while still enjoying the place...
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Your comment right here is what I think a lot of the problem is on these boards... Intelligent discussions get over taken by those who cannot comprehend what others are saying, no matter what side you are coming down on... Goof, I'm not saying this is you, just using your quote an example of the issues here... So please don't take this as anything negative or an attack on you cause it isn't...

The mentality is THIS IS A WDW BOARD THEREFORE YOU HAVE TO BE BEHIND WDW 100% NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO... that isn't the case, and shouldn't be... People don't get that.. You can be a fan of something yet still be highly critical of it at the same time... It is OK to be critical of something you love... Doesn't make you a bad person, as some people want to try to make others out to be...

I use this example on other boards: I'm a Yankee fan as are my friends... However, I'm not blindly loyal to the team where I believe every move they make are the best moves ever, or that they are the perfect team... I point out their flaws, where they are lacking something, and I'm not afraid to point out if I hate a player or a move they make or if I feel someone if going to be a bust... But, mention any of this to my Yankee fan friends, and you'd think I discussed plans for blowing up the world... They look at me with this "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THE BEST GM IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL, AND THE BEST MANAGER EVER" or "THE BEST TEAM IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL".. blah blah blah... Oh, and forget it if I give props to Tampa Bay, Baltimore, or Heaven forbid, the Mets... Their heads spin and practically explode...

The same goes for here... The WDW fans (the ones who cannot seem to understand there is a world outside of WDW) cannot comprehend when people say Universal is fun... Why?? Because they have conditioned themselves (or have become brainwashed) to think there is nothing else in the world other than WDW... And they have conditioned themselves to believe no one can ever top WDW... And yet, here is Universal catching up and ever surpassing Disney in a lot of places... They don't want to see that because, in their fantasy world, this could never happen... and it scares them... You can't even talk about another Disney theme park being better than WDW... And forget saying you enjoyed a Six Flags or Busch Gardens... More heads explode...

Blind loyalty does not make you a better fan than someone else... Just like knowing the inner workings or having contacts doesn't make that person a better fan... A fan can look at WDW (or a sport team) and be objective and point out a decline in quality while still enjoying the place...

I agree with you 100% (except on being a Yankees fan - the '09 world series still hurts). I think the same thing happens in reverse too. People who are posting critical comments can't understand why people don't all agree with them. I have felt that way anyway in the limited time i have been here. This whole thread became a WDW vs DL competition. I am the first to say I think they are both great and you can love the new DL attractions without taking away from your love of WDW When my kids are old enough to get into the Harry Potter movies I can't wait to take them to Potter World too. I really don't like six flags so I can't defend them, but Busch Gardens was really cool the last time I was there but it has been a while. I admit there is a special place in my heart for WDW and I am probably guilty of not seeing problems and snorting the pixie dust, but I can honestly say I don't feel like the quality has gone down.
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
Your comment right here is what I think a lot of the problem is on these boards... Intelligent discussions get over taken by those who cannot comprehend what others are saying, no matter what side you are coming down on... Goof, I'm not saying this is you, just using your quote an example of the issues here... So please don't take this as anything negative or an attack on you cause it isn't...

The mentality is THIS IS A WDW BOARD THEREFORE YOU HAVE TO BE BEHIND WDW 100% NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO... that isn't the case, and shouldn't be... People don't get that.. You can be a fan of something yet still be highly critical of it at the same time... It is OK to be critical of something you love... Doesn't make you a bad person, as some people want to try to make others out to be...

I use this example on other boards: I'm a Yankee fan as are my friends... However, I'm not blindly loyal to the team where I believe every move they make are the best moves ever, or that they are the perfect team... I point out their flaws, where they are lacking something, and I'm not afraid to point out if I hate a player or a move they make or if I feel someone if going to be a bust... But, mention any of this to my Yankee fan friends, and you'd think I discussed plans for blowing up the world... They look at me with this "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THE BEST GM IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL, AND THE BEST MANAGER EVER" or "THE BEST TEAM IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL".. blah blah blah... Oh, and forget it if I give props to Tampa Bay, Baltimore, or Heaven forbid, the Mets... Their heads spin and practically explode...

The same goes for here... The WDW fans (the ones who cannot seem to understand there is a world outside of WDW) cannot comprehend when people say Universal is fun... Why?? Because they have conditioned themselves (or have become brainwashed) to think there is nothing else in the world other than WDW... And they have conditioned themselves to believe no one can ever top WDW... And yet, here is Universal catching up and ever surpassing Disney in a lot of places... They don't want to see that because, in their fantasy world, this could never happen... and it scares them... You can't even talk about another Disney theme park being better than WDW... And forget saying you enjoyed a Six Flags or Busch Gardens... More heads explode...

Blind loyalty does not make you a better fan than someone else... Just like knowing the inner workings or having contacts doesn't make that person a better fan... A fan can look at WDW (or a sport team) and be objective and point out a decline in quality while still enjoying the place...

I agree with this, if it's okay for me to jump in here. Disagreeing with something Disney has done doesn't mean someone dislikes or disrespects Disney. What if nobody had complained about DCA over in California? Maybe if people hadn't commented so negatively about it, and - more importantly - avoided it, that park probably would have remained the same tacky rip of Coney Island, instead of the marvelous, lush and imaginative resurrection we get to enjoy today. Well-meaning comments, even those with impatience and frustration behind them, can be helpful. At least that's how I see it.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
I agree with this, if it's okay for me to jump in here. Disagreeing with something Disney has done doesn't mean someone dislikes or disrespects Disney. What if nobody had complained about DCA over in California? Maybe if people hadn't commented so negatively about it, and - more importantly - avoided it, that park probably would have remained the same tacky rip of Coney Island, instead of the marvelous, lush and imaginative resurrection we get to enjoy today. Well-meaning comments, even those with impatience and frustration behind them, can be helpful. At least that's how I see it.

True, true, true. Well said.
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
I agree with you 100% (except on being a Yankees fan - the '09 world series still hurts). I think the same thing happens in reverse too. People who are posting critical comments can't understand why people don't all agree with them. I have felt that way anyway in the limited time i have been here. This whole thread became a WDW vs DL competition. I am the first to say I think they are both great and you can love the new DL attractions without taking away from your love of WDW When my kids are old enough to get into the Harry Potter movies I can't wait to take them to Potter World too. I really don't like six flags so I can't defend them, but Busch Gardens was really cool the last time I was there but it has been a while. I admit there is a special place in my heart for WDW and I am probably guilty of not seeing problems and snorting the pixie dust, but I can honestly say I don't feel like the quality has gone down.

You're right... it is done on both sides... It shouldn't be done on either side... We should be able to have a discussion on where we see a decline, how you don't see it as a decline... And that's that... No one is right or wrong...

But far too many times certain posters here attack with DOOM AND GLOOM... Just like far too many call others pixie dusters (I admit, I'm guilty of it and honestly, I'm trying not to anymore for no other reason other than it really doesn't help your argument or the discussion)... The name calling just adds more hostility...

You don't see a decline and that's fine... No one is going to, or should attack you over that... The attacking starts when certain members troll and purposely post something they know is meant for nothing more than to cause a problem (which ever side you are on)... Or when people who are blindly loyal to WDW try to post something to defend WDW and they make no sense what so ever... And when called out with facts and proof, they have no other option that to attack... And yes, it is the same on both sides...
 

bubbles1812

Well-Known Member
You're right... it is done on both sides... It shouldn't be done on either side... We should be able to have a discussion on where we see a decline, how you don't see it as a decline... And that's that... No one is right or wrong...

But far too many times certain posters here attack with DOOM AND GLOOM... Just like far too many call others pixie dusters (I admit, I'm guilty of it and honestly, I'm trying not to anymore for no other reason other than it really doesn't help your argument or the discussion)... The name calling just adds more hostility...

You don't see a decline and that's fine... No one is going to, or should attack you over that... The attacking starts when certain members troll and purposely post something they know is meant for nothing more than to cause a problem (which ever side you are on)... Or when people who are blindly loyal to WDW try to post something to defend WDW and they make no sense what so ever... And when called out with facts and proof, they have no other option that to attack... And yes, it is the same on both sides...

I think that is what tends to bother me the most. People can have differing opinions from me. They can even not see the declines or feel there has been a decline in quality like I think I've seen. But when outright facts are just dismissed (yes, both sides have done it), is when I get really bothered. Or when people absolutely deny what the posters who are credible...posters who are known Disney Insiders have to say. No, they don't know everything going on within Disney and everything should be taken with a bit of a grain of salt but they sure are privy to a lot more info than the average layperson. Or when facts are just entirely made up with absolutely no basis whatsoever and they don't make sense at all.

I too am trying to tone down any name calling. I've been guilty of it a few times and like dxer, I've recognized it doesn't really get the discussion anywhere. Hopefully others will do the same. I've been told I'm Doom and Gloom when I'm not. I love a lot of things about WDW. There are just several things I want and think really need changed and I disagree a lot with the way current management handles the parks. But again, I do still enjoy WDW at the same time.
 

Poirot4

New Member
Not to continue staying off topic but I wanted to chime in. I love coming to this website because Steve does a tremendous job of reporting on everything related to the World. I also like to frequent the message boards although I very rarely post. I don't mind the critical posts even though I don't necessarily agree with them. Everyone has a right to say what they feel.

The only thing that bothers me is when someone starts a positive thread and others turn the discussion negative.

I would like to suggest that maybe we could have a section of the forum dedicated to the so-called "pixie dust" people. A section where people can go to discuss their positive opinions and excitement of WDW. The rules of that section would be that no critical or negative posts are allowed.

Maybe a separate "doom and gloomer" section would be nice too.

I still think the focus of the forums should allow us to all integrate and have great conversations and debates but it would also be nice to have a place to take a break from it all or to share opinions with those that think similarly as you do.
 

xdan0920

Think for yourselfer
Not to continue staying off topic but I wanted to chime in. I love coming to this website because Steve does a tremendous job of reporting on everything related to the World. I also like to frequent the message boards although I very rarely post. I don't mind the critical posts even though I don't necessarily agree with them. Everyone has a right to say what they feel.

The only thing that bothers me is when someone starts a positive thread and others turn the discussion negative.

I would like to suggest that maybe we could have a section of the forum dedicated to the so-called "pixie dust" people. A section where people can go to discuss their positive opinions and excitement of WDW. The rules of that section would be that no critical or negative posts are allowed.

Maybe a separate "doom and gloomer" section would be nice too.

I still think the focus of the forums should allow us to all integrate and have great conversations and debates but it would also be nice to have a place to take a break from it all or to share opinions with those that think similarly as you do.

Try the trip planning and trip reports sections. Overwhelmingly positive.
 

bubbles1812

Well-Known Member
Not to continue staying off topic but I wanted to chime in. I love coming to this website because Steve does a tremendous job of reporting on everything related to the World. I also like to frequent the message boards although I very rarely post. I don't mind the critical posts even though I don't necessarily agree with them. Everyone has a right to say what they feel.

The only thing that bothers me is when someone starts a positive thread and others turn the discussion negative.

I would like to suggest that maybe we could have a section of the forum dedicated to the so-called "pixie dust" people. A section where people can go to discuss their positive opinions and excitement of WDW. The rules of that section would be that no critical or negative posts are allowed.

Maybe a separate "doom and gloomer" section would be nice too.

I still think the focus of the forums should allow us to all integrate and have great conversations and debates but it would also be nice to have a place to take a break from it all or to share opinions with those that think similarly as you do.

I don't think that would work. Mean what constitutes negative or positive is in an of itself pretty subjective. Plus I dont know, I think it would get pretty boring. I actually do enjoy hearing others opinions even if I don't agree. Debate is fun and the whole point of this forum is dialogue between fans. Segregation like that just seems like no fun. I don't want this to be like dis boards. Also, I'd agree, the trip reports and planning sections are relatively positive.

I do realize you weren't suggesting that the whole forum be divided but I just think its a slippery slope
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I would like to suggest that maybe we could have a section of the forum dedicated to the so-called "pixie dust" people. A section where people can go to discuss their positive opinions and excitement of WDW. The rules of that section would be that no critical or negative posts are allowed.

Maybe a separate "doom and gloomer" section would be nice too.
This idea sort of adds evidence to one of the recurring themes, that there are fans who, even if it could be absolutely and objectively proven, would rather ignore a perceived negative than acknowledge it as reality. There being too many fans of Walt Disney World who do not want to consider any negative is a problem and what is meant by people at Disney saying "blame the fans." Being happy with a product is entirely different than seeking to actively ignore its shortcomings.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
This idea sort of adds evidence to one of the recurring themes, that there are fans who, even if it could be absolutely and objectively proven, would rather ignore a perceived negative than acknowledge it as reality. There being too many fans of Walt Disney World who do not want to consider any negative is a problem and what is meant by people at Disney saying "blame the fans." Being happy with a product is entirely different than seeking to actively ignore its shortcomings.

...or maybe your perceived negatives are not perceived as negatives for others. I don't see how you can objectively prove something that is an opinion. An opinion by its nature cannot be objectively proven. Of course that is just my opinion.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
...or maybe your perceived negatives are not perceived as negatives for others. I don't see how you can objectively prove something that is an opinion. An opinion by its nature cannot be objectively proven. Of course that is just my opinion.
That's why I said "even if."
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
That's why I said "even if."

I don't 'even' have a clue where to begin with this thread after not being around much the last 3-4 days ... so many directions ... and so much to wade through ...'even if" I did, would it be worth it? 'Even if' I did would it change any minds? 'Even if' I did would it just depress and anger me that so many people miss the most basic points? 'Even if" I did would it get me on RSRs any faster?

So many questions 'even if' I am too tired to ponder them ...
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I'll give you #2, but argue the rest.

Bring it on, to survive in my Spirited family you have to be very good at the art of the argument!

1. DLR relies significantly more on locals than WDW.

And where did I ever say that wasn't the case? Some WDW fans seen to view DL as 'the local amusement park' and that is the misinformation I am trying to shout down. Right now, it is a 55/45 split according to the good folks at TDA. The DLR's current Prez told me it was 65/35 just prior to DCA opening, so things have changed quite a bit over the past 11 years. And one could argue that DCA was quite successful in drawing more tourists.

But, again, DLR exists in one of the largest urban areas in the USA. And what is defined as a 'local now includes parts of Mexico and north to Santa Barbara and east to the Coachella Valley. That would be akin to calling almost every Floridian a 'local and adding Freeport and Nassau to the mix too. Instead, WDW locals are from just Central FLA.

2. Agree completely. Nostalgia blocks people from having objective opinions.

Yes, it does.

And whenever someone gives me the 'you recall things with rose-colored glasses' load of BS to tell me that WDW hasn't really changed much over the decades, I see and hear proof that my memories are what I have always maintained.

I recently saw some very kewl home videos (that aren't for sale on a Disney Lifestyler's site) from December of 1990 and there were things that I didn't even realize about how much better the resort was back then.

3. Real estate and timeshares may have been the focus of the last ten years of construction at WDW, but only because there was huge demand for it and there was already incredible amounts of entertainment available at WDW. Our family likes the varied recreational options and takes advantage of them each trip. There's no way anyone could ever do everything there is to do at WDW in one week. That is NOT the case at ANY of the other Disney properties. The argument that Disney should be expanding the parks in WDW and that it's the fan community's fault that they're not doing much of it may have some merit, but that argument is far, far outweighed by the overarching reality that WDW already has a gazillion entertainment options available. WDW does not need expansion.

I just stand by my opinion that fewer folks take advantage of the many varied recreation options at WDW than did in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

Look, they just ripped up one golf course (for Golden Oak) and one tennis center that wasn't replaced (for the BLT) and closed off a spa and tennis facilities at another for two years (at the GF) so they could add more ill-conceived, ill-placed timeshares. Yet, you don't hear one complaint about those things because people are busy 'riding the rides' 16 hours a day.

And I don't agree about demand fueling these projects either. No one was begging for Disney to deannex more greenspace and put in McMansions. No one was saying that Disney lacked enough DVC capacity or hotel capacity and needed more. It was all pure greed. That's what drives the company and its leaders today. No vision at all.

4. The Walmart comparisons may have had a flicker of originality when they were first made, but are just tired and devoid of meaning now. The MK has NOT devolved into Six Flags.

WDW has become a Walmarted shadow of its self. You may not like that, realize it or agree ... but I can point out umpteen ways in which it is true. I never said the MK was Six Flags, although I have never set foot in one of their theme parks so I don't know how they are today (I've heard some good things about Magic Mountain). But the MK has become a very weak park when compared with what it was 20 years ago and what the other MK-style parks are today. I did raise some ire here when I said that Busch Gardens Williamsburg was better than the MK when you compare it based on Disney's own 'keys' (because nowhere does it say exposed rolley coaster track automatically places you below any park that doesn't have it!) but I said it because it is true today.

People visit WDW largely for the parks. Without them, none of the other stuff would exist. I may go visit AoA to check it out and have some gelato (if they haven't stopped selling it by then), but 99.9% of other guests won't. They don't care ... just like they don't care about the BLT ... or Flamingo Crossing.
 

MUTZIE77

Well-Known Member
I don't 'even' have a clue where to begin with this thread after not being around much the last 3-4 days ... so many directions ... and so much to wade through ...'even if" I did, would it be worth it? 'Even if' I did would it change any minds? 'Even if' I did would it just depress and anger me that so many people miss the most basic points? 'Even if" I did would it get me on RSRs any faster?

So many questions 'even if' I am too tired to ponder them ...

Everyone with an opposing view missed your point in the OP
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
And it's that last part that epitomizes why I tend to disagree with practically every one of your posts. You seem to believe that there is a reality, and you are one of the few who can 'see' it, when in fact your reality is your perception and is no more real than the perception of any other person in the wdwmagic community. :)

No, that's not true.

I've said this many times when dealing with opinion, sometimes it is subjective and sometimes it is objective based on FACT.

The fact that a spinner isn't an expensive, high-quality Disney attraction isn't opinion whether your favorite attraction at WDW is Dumbo or not. That is reality.

The reality that Disney isn't putting its best work into Fantasyland isn't simply opinion, it's based on objective methods for determining quality in themed attractions (lightbulb posted a very thorough explanation of this numerous times before and he's worked for Disney and UNI and others at the top of the business). It's why the 1971 Haunted Mansion or the 1973 PoC or the 1981 BTMRR are all higher caliber attractions than anything that will open in the 'new, new, new, but not really Fantasyland'.

There are basic metrics that can be used to judge them. That is reality. Not mine. Not yours. Just plain reality.

So, people can like the Casey Junior Children's Pee, Pooh and Puke Lawsuits Waiting To Happen While Pedophiles Lurk with Their Cameras Fountain, but it doesn't change the fundamental point that it is cheap and simple and, many would say, unworthy of being in a MK-style park.
 

spacemt354

Chili's
WDW has become a Walmarted shadow of its self .
I've never set foot in a walmart before, but you have said walmart so many times that you have convinced me to finally see what it is like. I mean, if I like disney world, and walmart is so similar, then maybe I will like walmart. I'm going to call it Waltmart. ;)
 

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