Two coasts: One very different world

[theRIOT]

4. If you don't like it, then don't go to Disney world. Its that simple.

I don't like what it's become and I'm going to say so.

That doesn't mean I don't still have some love for the old gal -- I do. But it's sad to see something you have enjoyed so much offer you less and less each year. And hopefully as they track my spending and see how I visit fewer and fewer times, they'll get the point and turn it around.

Just like Spirit, and Lee and everyone else here that has watched as the experience declines and the prices increase.
This remark and the many people on this board that utter it ARE the problem with Disney World.

Stop snorting the pixie dust off your new Mickey Mouse Disney Visa Rewards card and you would see the difference between a quality-run park and what's qucikly becoming a Six Flags-style experience.

 

[wannab@dis]

Just like Spirit, and Lee and everyone else here that has watched as the experience declines and the prices increase.

I'll ignore the ad homs and focus on a major problem with your argument... That "everyone else" is just a few vocal posters the continually complain about anything and everything. They hurt their valid issues with focus on minutia and subjective issues. There are problems that need to be fixed. A lot of work has been done, continues to be done, and more needs to be done. Investment is being made in the parks and will continue.

By the way, prices of everything have increased across the board, not just tickets at WDW. Gas prices have doubled over the past 3 years, food costs are up a lot, labor and benefit costs have increased. Price is not just tied to the investment in the parks, but also the overhead.

 

[CaptJapan]

I posted this elsewhere on the forum.
But I feel this picture sums up this whole topic.

Hope I'm not overusing it.

 

[bubbles1812]

I'll ignore the ad homs and focus on a major problem with your argument... That "everyone else" is just a few vocal posters the continually complain about anything and everything. They hurt their valid issues with focus on minutia and subjective issues. There are problems that need to be fixed. A lot of work has been done, continues to be done, and more needs to be done. Investment is being made in the parks and will continue.

By the way, prices of everything have increased across the board, not just tickets at WDW. Gas prices have doubled over the past 3 years, food costs are up a lot, labor and benefit costs have increased. Price is not just tied to the investment in the parks, but also the overhead.

Ok, I'll admit I'm one of the "vocal posters" and Riot saying "Everyone else" is too big a generalization. But you are generalizing as well...it is not just a few vocal posters who are having problems. Look at other threads like this. Yes, 74' and Lee are there, Lazyboy and OrangeTree and other of the more vocal set. But there are others that may only comment once or twice that are having the same problems and seeing the same decline. The people who feel this way are not a minority. Some just stand out more than others I guess. But again, it is not just a few vocal posters.

I haven't even argued some investment isn't being made. I know it is. I'm not disputing for instance that they are putting NFE land. And I may sound like a broken record but my point still stands...again and again and again TDO slashes the budget on the major projects. Do we still get something decent? Yeah we do. It's "fine." But again, I am not just looking for "fine." I am looking for Disney to wow me the way it used to and the way I know it can. That original NFE...that would have knocked my socks off. The actual NFE being built...yes, I'm sure I'll enjoy it but at the same time I recognize what it could have been and see the problems that will arise if TDO continue the pattern of not investing as much as they could/are capable of/have the money for and half a lot of what they do. I want Disney to be the best it can be. And I don't see that. This does not make me a "doom and gloomer." It's fine if you think Disney is being the best it can be at the moment. That is your opinion. But I'd like to see Disney go all out on a project...not slash the budget so that guests are given the barest minimum to make them happy. To stop trying to make budget cuts to the point where stuff right down to maintenance work is not done promptly and is usually done rather shoddily. Where the are streamlining much of the food in the parks so much that restaurants are losing their uniqueness. Yes I know Disney is a company and they aren't made of money but if they would invest more to attract more, they might not have to make those cuts. I expect more than that from Disney and we used to get that.

 

[wannab@dis]

The people who feel this way are not a minority. Some just stand out more than others I guess. But again, it is not just a few vocal posters.

Yes, it is a minority. A miniscule minority in fact. If not, the park's attendance numbers would be declining drastically. The vocal complainers make up a tiny percentage of the members on this forum. The members on this forum doesn't even show a blip on the park attendance. Most people I know would never spend their hard earned money taking a vacation where they feel they are not getting their money's worth. If so many people were finding their times at WDW below their expectations, they would not go back and word of mouth would keep others from going back.

It seems hardly a week or two goes by when I'm seeing someone else posting pictures from the parks. The worse thing mentioned in a long time was about 2 or 3 weeks ago... "we've had to wear our ponchos almost every day of our trip." That it. Nobody complaining about decline in quality, burnt out lightbulbs, mediocre food, too many meet and greets. Whatever the complaint of the week around here - it's not seen. Granted, I'm particular about "friending" people so I personally know everyone and I don't have thousands of people on my friend list. But, a lot of people I know go down at least once a year, some multiple times. They wouldn't spend the time or money taking a mediocre vacation.

 

[lazyboy97o]

spacemt354, excluding the additional timeshare resorts and additions, what non-park activities have been added to Walt Disney World that would constitute a significant investment or addition?

 

[cslafferty]

I don't like what it's become and I'm going to say so.

That doesn't mean I don't still have some love for the old gal -- I do. But it's sad to see something you have enjoyed so much offer you less and less each year. And hopefully as they track my spending and see how I visit fewer and fewer times, they'll get the point and turn it around.

Just like Spirit, and Lee and everyone else here that has watched as the experience declines and the prices increase.
This remark and the many people on this board that utter it ARE the problem with Disney World.

Stop snorting the pixie dust off your new Mickey Mouse Disney Visa Rewards card and you would see the difference between a quality-run park and what's qucikly becoming a Six Flags-style experience.

You absolutely SHOULD speak up about things you don't like. We all have that right and that's what discussion boards are for. If you and others believe that WDW is no longer a quality-run park, then the best way to send that message is to give less of your money to TDO, and hopefully they'll get whatever message you're trying to send.

The part that I bolded is what I have a problem with. Because we still enjoy ourselves when we go to WDW, are looking forward to "Next Gen", FLE, and Avatarland, tear up at the sight of the Castle, and start planning our next trip before we even leave the park - we're "the problem with Disney World"???? The experience has declined for you, but not for me and many, many others out there - and it's not because I'm "snorting pixie dust," but we obviously are looking for a different experience from WDW. I know what I'm looking for from my Disney vacations has changed throughout the years from when my children were little, through teenage years, and now that it's just DH and I. FLE may be seen as a waste of money and space to some, but not to others. It's not right or wrong, it's just a difference of personal preference. If TDO starts taking the parks in a different direction than what I'm looking for, then I'll spend less time there or look at spending my vacations somewhere else. None of us on these boards are "the problem." It's a matter of personal opinion.

And I don't even know what you're implying with the "Disney Visa Rewards Card" crack. If you're implying that we thoughtlessly pull out our credit cards and just charge away in a pixie dust-induced haze, not needing or caring to put any real thought into the quality of our vacations, then you are sadly mistaken. I know for myself, I work very hard all year to save up vacation money, and WDW is where I choose to go because I still feel that it is a quality-run park. Your statement was insulting.

I don't understand why you and some others on these boards can't state an opinion about something without slamming those of us that don't share it. The discussions on these threads can be very enlightening and enriching . . . until that happens. Then, I'm out.

 

[cheezbat]

You wanna bet? Tens of millions of people visit the numerous Six Flags parks across the country every year. So many here diss Six Flags as barebones cheapo parks...you don't think people won't spend their money on a mediocre vacation? Think again. People NEED to get away. They'll settle for 'good enough'. Disney does the best job of engraining in people's heads that a Disney vacation is all about making memories. That's what truly brings people back...their memories of great vacations. Yes, people will continue to go to Disney even if it keeps declining. Why? Because they always have. Where else will they go? There's not many places on par with Disney right now- or close, except for places like Universal and maybe the Sea World parks. The difference is that eventually, if WDW doesn't pick up their game, they'll see a decrease on guests and guest spending. Heck, most of my friends decided on DL vacation over a WDW vacation again this year!

 

[Jimmy Thick]

You absolutely SHOULD speak up about things you don't like. We all have that right and that's what discussion boards are for. If you and others believe that WDW is no longer a quality-run park, then the best way to send that message is to give less of your money to TDO, and hopefully they'll get whatever message you're trying to send.

I'll never understand why people who spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on a Disney vacation continue to go there if they feel their vacation is substandard, or they could get a better value elsewhere. And then continue to go and complain about it.

Why would anyone want to put such stress upon them selves is beyond me.


Jimmy Thick- Go elsewhere, Disney don't need you.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I'll never understand why people who spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on a Disney vacation continue to go there if they feel their vacation is substandard, or they could get a better value elsewhere. And then continue to go and complain about it.

Why would anyone want to put such stress upon them selves is beyond me.


Jimmy Thick- Go elsewhere, Disney don't need you.

Walt Disney World is not a single, massive, all-or-nothing entity. I can love Disney's Animal Kingdom and still find the Magic Kingdom lacking. I can loath Stitch's Great Escape and enjoy a ride on Star Tours. I can think the burgers at wherever suck but still enjoy the soup someplace else. Why try to reduce Walt Disney World to just one thing?

 

[wannab@dis]

Go elsewhere, Disney don't need you.

I'd go further than that... they don't WANT people complaining. Word of mouth can be the best or worst advertising for a business. They don't want the word on the street to be negative. As long as they continue to offer a quality vacation, they can count on positive reviews between friends and family. When people I know and trust start saying their vacation wasn't that great or I see the overall quality drop -- I'll pay attention. But it's going to take more than hyperbole and that's mostly what we have here.

That said, there are some things that need to be worked on. I would not claim otherwise. But that's true no matter where you go. A couple of years ago, we made a trip to Gulf Shores for a week. According to the media and some of the fringe groups, we were crazy. But, we listened to people we knew and I'm glad we did. The beach was clean and beautiful. No black goo all over the place. Saw a couple of tar balls one morning after a nasty storm rolled through, but that was it. To hear some talking heads, we would be lucky to even walk on the beach without being coated in oil. Reality was much different!

 

[flynnibus]

Let me ask you this. Are you constantly thinking all day, in the back of your mind when you visit Disneyland, man, I wish that freeway wasn't visible from the monorail?

More like - 'This is an attraction?'. Besides the FL/TL loops of the Monorail ride... its the most unglamorous ride on property. The majority of the ride is simply driving between buildings, or over backstage areas or the parking lot. Enjoy your ride into the 50s future over the back of house of Harbor house... and Harbor Blvd.. to be followed up by.. the walls of DCA.. Seriously, besides the FL and TL loops.. you have the ride over the esplanade and the rest is pretty bad show.

But to the topic - you again take your dismissive nature of the impact and use it to rewrite the facts in your mind. It doesn't matter how important or not the freeway view is to you.. that's what it is factually. And with the new monorail design forcing which side of the train you look out.. that half of the train pretty much gets forced fed that view.

It doesn't seem like Walt Disney had this huge, aching problem with it, since he first wanted to build Disneyland in Burbank next to his studios, which wasn't isolated either

The idea to commercialize the interest in his studio was not a DL concept - different ideas, different times.

Yes, he wanted more space and he didn't want outsiders looking into his park. But the man still enjoyed it. That's my point

Man you really got things on their head. Its not about outsiders looking in, it's about the outside INTRUDING on the show he was trying to create. And the man wasn't contempt to sit back and just enjoy what he had.. he was instead obsessive about how to IMPROVE it and not just be satisified. He built the park, and spent the next 13 years figuring out how to improve every aspect of it. He had limitations.. financial.. technological... skill.. and every week, every month, they worked to overcome those hurdles and improve upon what they did previously. Not just sitting back and going 'well, its good enough'. That drive for continual improvement and distaste for subpar is what built the Disney product and brand that the company and fans of complacency coast on now.

I understand, but I don't recall seeing any other off-property area while at the resort. I suppose I remember seeing a castle-like hotel for a few seconds while on the monorail, but it just didn't seem that intrusive. Idk, I suppose like others are saying, to each his own, but it seems to me you had to look for things from the outside world while on property

Or maybe as a first time visitor you were so overloaded with other things they didn't stand out to you. In the monorails now, the train seating was changed to a center line bench that forces what side of the train you look out of. It's impossible to miss that view if you are sitting on that side. And the worst offender inside the park, the west end of DCA.. you've already acknowledged is that way. On the rides, I'm sure you were focused on this whole new experience you had going on.

Same thing happens in WDW... when you are in EPCOT you are taken back by World Showcase.. it doesn't jump out at you on your first trip about those hotels beyond intruding on the sight lines either.

I'm not talking about the parks, although I don't remember seeing Harbor from Splash Mtn, which to me shows that Disney really has gone out of its way to ensure that nothing from the outside influences the magic at DL.

At DL? Pretty much.. but the context of the discussion was DLR.. the resort as a whole. DL is pretty well protected because it had those founding design principles.. but when they expanded to DLR.. they didn't mind it much attention.

 

[flynnibus]

This poster was "hating" in the fact that he just kept talking mess and nonsense and saying ignorant things about Disneyland and California and I didn't appreciate that.

'ignorant things'? Don't insult me when you obviously don't even understand the definition of the word.

You don't mind the situation - that's fine - that doesn't change the reality of the facts presented. You really come off as some 20ish person that never knew the park as any other way and are happy with the product as you know it. You're happy that Screamin' is fun and that's enough for you. But you get all defensive when people have a bigger picture view of what really led to choices like Screamin or the choices taken in the resort. You think 'someone is attacking my baby.. step off' and fail to be objective and digest what those choices really have on the product and direction they lead the company to in the long haul.

 

[Californian Elitist]

'ignorant things'? Don't insult me when you obviously don't even understand the definition of the word.

You don't mind the situation - that's fine - that doesn't change the reality of the facts presented. You really come off as some 20ish person that never knew the park as any other way and are happy with the product as you know it. You're happy that Screamin' is fun and that's enough for you. But you get all defensive when people have a bigger picture view of what really led to choices like Screamin or the choices taken in the resort. You think 'someone is attacking my baby.. step off' and fail to be objective and digest what those choices really have on the product and direction they lead the company to in the long haul.

What in the world are you talking about? I was referring to another poster. Clever Name, I believe is what that person goes by. You didn't upset or offend me at all. Sorry if I offended you, honestly. I thought our convo was over last night.

 

[bubbles1812]

Yes, it is a minority. A miniscule minority in fact. If not, the park's attendance numbers would be declining drastically. The vocal complainers make up a tiny percentage of the members on this forum. The members on this forum doesn't even show a blip on the park attendance. Most people I know would never spend their hard earned money taking a vacation where they feel they are not getting their money's worth. If so many people were finding their times at WDW below their expectations, they would not go back and word of mouth would keep others from going back.

It seems hardly a week or two goes by when I'm seeing someone else posting pictures from the parks. The worse thing mentioned in a long time was about 2 or 3 weeks ago... "we've had to wear our ponchos almost every day of our trip." That it. Nobody complaining about decline in quality, burnt out lightbulbs, mediocre food, too many meet and greets. Whatever the complaint of the week around here - it's not seen. Granted, I'm particular about "friending" people so I personally know everyone and I don't have thousands of people on my friend list. But, a lot of people I know go down at least once a year, some multiple times. They wouldn't spend the time or money taking a mediocre vacation.

Have I ever said I have a mediocre time while I'm there? No... I have fun. Usually, I even feel I'm getting my money's worth...I know that isn't everybody but it is for me. But that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to be critical and want the place I love to be the best it can be...which again, is not something I see. I see lowered standards and people giving passes to Disney in terms of quality where quality has slipped when they really shouldn't. But I will give praise to the things I think Disney does well and they do still do many things well. But not everywhere. Also, if you want to look at one thread...there was def a thread about someone having a horrible stay at one of the resorts. It's not all roses as you would indicate. I too know many people who go down each year...and they feel it's worth their money too. But they don't just turn a blind eye to some of the problems at Disney either. They may not really complain about anything while specifically on vacation but when they reflect on their trip, there are things to be critical about.

And again, not a minority. Check out the different threads. Or if you want to go that way, I'd say people like you that are in the "Disney can and does do no wrong" crowd (I realize that doesn't fit everyone and yeah that's a generalization but since you seem to be fond of them.) are just as in the minority. Only a few of you are very vocal as well. But people who have similar philosophies to me aren't and I'll say the group that you seem to more identify with aren't either.

 

[Bolna]

And I don't even know what you're implying with the "Disney Visa Rewards Card" crack. If you're implying that we thoughtlessly pull out our credit cards and just charge away in a pixie dust-induced haze, not needing or caring to put any real thought into the quality of our vacations, then you are sadly mistaken. I know for myself, I work very hard all year to save up vacation money, and WDW is where I choose to go because I still feel that it is a quality-run park.

I don't want to imply at all that you aren't careful about your spending, but what you said reminded me of something both WDW1974 and Lee have commented on and which so far nobody has picked up.

That is that Disney expects Next Gen to create an increase in spending of up to 11%. That would be a huge increase!

And how is that going to happen. By adding lots of expensive options or are they hoping that by making paying easier (i.e. you just have to wave your wristband in front of the cash register) that people will spend more on stuff where if they had to get their credit card or even cash out of their wallet they would think about it more and not buy it?

Seems to me that Disney is exactly hoping that Next Gen will make people to "just charge away in a pixie dust-induced haze" as you so nicely put it.

 

[spacemt354]

spacemt354, excluding the additional timeshare resorts and additions, what non-park activities have been added to Walt Disney World that would constitute a significant investment or addition?

This is a very stupid question. Basically you're asking me to cite the non-park activities added, while excluding the timeshare resorts that the activities are originating from. According to your logic, the new savannah activities added to DAKL Villas don't count as additional activities because they are part of the timeshares. Also you never gave me a time-frame on these additions. Am I to assume you want me to list all the non-park activities added since 1971? Nevertheless, I'll just say a few recent things. Let's start with the makeover and additions recently added to Downtown Disney. Everything from the T-Rex restaurant, to the helium balloon ride, the new shops, and the upcoming bowling alley. Moving on, the new Art of Animation Resort (not a timeshare) has just opened this year, providing guests an affordable, yet well themed resort for their stay. I'm not going to entertain your question any further, not because there aren't more non-park activities, but because you're going to debate everything I say regardless. I only offered a few examples to prove that even with your picayune question, I was still able to give an answer. And you know, it's kinda hard to add non-park activities when WDW already plays host to pga golf courses, pools, mini-golf, tennis, biking, boating, parasailing, kayaking, horseback riding, fitness centers, spas, a racecar track, the Atlanta Braves spring training, an entire sports complex, cirque du soleil, specialty cruises, and a lot more but I think I have made my point.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Let's start with the makeover and additions recently added to Downtown Disney. Everything from the T-Rex restaurant, to the helium balloon ride, the new shops, and the upcoming bowling alley. Moving on, the new Art of Animation Resort (not a timeshare) has just opened this year, providing guests an affordable, yet well themed resort for their stay. I'm not going to entertain your question any further, not because there aren't more non-park activities, but because you're going to debate everything I say regardless. I only offered a few examples to prove that even with your picayune question, I was still able to give an answer.

You consider these to be significant? Ok then.

 

[Bolna]

Just a general comment: I don't get the point of counting the recently built resorts as a substantial addition to WDW from a general guest experience point. Yes, it does add accommodation for some. But for anyone else it really is nothing besides maybe an additional restaurant. And while the new food court at Art of Animation sounds great how many guests would venture there for a meal if they don't stay there. The only recent addition to restaurants in resorts that are a "destination" is Sanaa. I very rarely read of people who venture to the Turf Club at SSR if they are not staying there and the BLT does not even have a restaurant - and I guess neither will the new GF wing have one. The last resort that really added something substantial to the general visitor not staying at that specific resort was the Animal Kingdom Lodge.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Hahaha, thank you for debating me just as I had predicted.

It is not a point of debate. You said you were just listing off some recent additions. If you consider them to be significant additions, then so be it. I think you're wrong, but you already said you were uninterested in discussing the matter.